How would a "realistic" Superman: Red Son play out?

[Ultrackius]

Since it seems like I'm very much outvoted by everyone on most everything, I will stop arguing and go, I hope that the result is a fun timeline, and honestly, it sounds like one, I just doubt it will be very accurate towards the actual foundations of communist ideology

 

[Sulemain]

Since it seems like I'm very much outvoted by everyone on most everything, I will stop arguing and go, I hope that the result is a fun timeline, and honestly, it sounds like one, I just doubt it will be very accurate towards the actual foundations of communist ideology

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Well from what I know about what Marx believed neither was the USSR in OTL.

 

[Impirius]

Well from what I know about what Marx believed neither was the USSR in OTL.

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Exactly,if we are using Superman we need to take the goals of Marxism seriously and push for them.
Supes need to rebuild the USSR towards either a anarchist or Technocratic(like Krypton) paradigm to reach post scarcity while pursuing mass liberalization of thought and society.
This is how i see it working out in the end.
After he succeeds the world will adopt his model and combined with not being the antagonist to half the planet(The US probably still gets the 2 red scare) he could build towards global transition to communism.

 

[Ultrackius]

Well from what I know about what Marx believed neither was the USSR in OTL.

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Agreed, as I said, I'm not a Tankie. I just heavily disagree with your reading of Marx and Lenin

 

[RedX]

I'm referring to the scenario where he takes over during ww2.

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Oh, in which case, he has his pick of factions and cliques to support. Finding one that backs free elections plus socialist economics, and growing it through aid and weapons, should be simple enough.

Heck, the CCP and KMT themselves are likely ideologically loose enough to swing, so long as it means sticking it to the Japanese.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

I'm not sure what happened here, but Leninism is not modern liberal centrism and I don't know why people are pretending it is. A Leninist Superman will show absolutely no hesitation when he crushes all resistance to Communism, meaning removing Capitalism one way or another.

Leninism is an explicit rejection of the 'gotcha' legalism arguments being put forward here. Literally it took over Russia when the new government of Russia said, 'Lets implement some minor reforms.' and Lenin said, 'Fuck no, socialism now.'

Here's how Leninism deals with voting going the wrong way:

The long-awaited Constituent Assembly elections were held on 12 November (O.S., 25 November, N.S.) 1917. In contrast to their majority in the Soviets, the Bolsheviks only won 175 seats in the 715-seat legislative body, coming in second behind the Socialist Revolutionary Party, which won 370 seats, although the SR Party no longer existed as a whole party by that time, as the Left SRs had gone into coalition with the Bolsheviks from October 1917 to March 1918 (a cause of dispute of the legitimacy of the returned seating of the Constituent Assembly, as the old lists, were drawn up by the old SR Party leadership, and thus represented mostly Right SRs, whereas the peasant soviet deputies had returned majorities for the pro-Bolshevik Left SRs). The Constituent Assembly was to first meet on 28 November (O.S.) 1917, but its convocation was delayed until 5 January (O.S.; 18 January, N.S.) 1918 by the Bolsheviks. On its first and only day in session, the Constituent Assembly came into conflict with the Soviets, and it rejected Soviet decrees on peace and land, resulting in the Constituent Assembly being dissolved the next day by order of the Congress of Soviets.[3]

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So yeah, a true Leninist Superman won't be a pacifist like regular Superman or passive like modern centrist liberals.

 

[Impirius]

Here's how Leninism deals with voting going the wrong way

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That was literally a coup and Lenin implemented literally a 1 party state with secret police so that argument doesn't stand to a braes!

The thread moves nowhere if we can't decide if Superman is Superman or he is Superhypocrite like all of the USSR was after Lenin took power.
And under Lenin's framework socialism ends up being anything supreme leader says it is so the up problem needs to be resolved first even if he could probably actually achieve communism.

 

[Ultrackius]

That was literally a coup and Lenin implemented literally a 1 party state with secret police so that argument doesn't stand to a braes!

The thread moves nowhere if we can't decide if Superman is Superman or he is Superhypocrite like all of the USSR was after Lenin took power.
And under Lenin's framework socialism ends up being anything supreme leader says it is so the up problem needs to be resolved first even if he could probably actually achieve communism.

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I think that the "nicest" (to liberal democratic eyes) Superman you could get would still be someone like TNO's Sablin, and even he restricts fascist and capitalist political movements, and has no issue with going to war to enforce socialism on people who voted fro something (he is perfectly willing to invade Tomsk for example). And that's the nicest Supes could possibly get, there's a good chance he would drop some of the more Libertarian policies in the name of pragmatism and saving the revolution.

Your assuming that communism is just Liberal Democracy with a more planned economy when its not, its a completely different beast of its own. And I don't see how the argument collapses because Lenin did a coup. The ideological position was to do a coup, its the pragmatists who discarded the idea. And we already agreed that Superman would be ultra-ideological, to the point of discarding pragmatism.

 

[Impirius]

I think that the "nicest" (to liberal democratic eyes) Superman you could get would still be someone like TNO's Sablin, and even he restricts fascist and capitalist political movements, and has no issue with going to war to enforce socialism on people who voted fro something (he is perfectly willing to invade Tomsk for example). And that's the nicest Supes could possibly get, there's a good chance he would drop some of the more Libertarian policies in the name of pragmatism and saving the revolution.

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Sablin is a pretty good example,and even then i will say his Leninism is poisonous or are you ignoring that he is literally going against the party.
Also the whole revolutionary aspect of Marxist theory is true,now resolve the mass contradiction that come from effectively using the peasants are to dumb to be trusted(the prolateria) argument and how do you use effective dictatorship to advance towards communism.

 

[Impirius]

Your assuming that communism is just Liberal Democracy with a more planned economy when its not, its a completely different beast of its own.

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No i'm arguing that superman would actually want to try build a communist society in the first place.

 

[BrendenHawley]

. The problem arises with the reaction from the US, which would most likely step up the armament efforts and their subversive CIA campaigns, which by itself would dramatically increase global instability and in turn hardened Kal's stance against outside threats.

With economical and sociopolitical stability inside the Warsaw Pact countries, the Soviet Block would not be very inclined to concessions without tangible gains.



In short, the Cold War would be even more intense and longer-lasting.

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One thing to remember is Kal-el super sense, speed and memory, avoids a lot of monkey sphere issues, so Kal-el may understand the west perception and hold more sympathy for there people than any real life issue, because he can hear and understand what the poor people, middle class, rich and political westerners are saying, much less of a believing your own propaganda with him.

The end result of this is Kal has a vastly enhanced power to social fu, to figure out the west breserk buttons and know when one triggered it and make a few gestures as damage control. He could end up leading the west around by it nose, or just dance on the line of making west freak out, slowly making that the new norm until the west gets used to it.

This could go wrong, kal not a perfect being who makes no mistakes and this is a thorny issues, but he got some edges no one else has including the power to get a perfect grasp of America culture by spending a hour listening to people from all walks of life and reading there works, which he can do so fast with his speed and senses it going to be at least worth 1000 hours from a cultural adapt and smart person.

 

[Impirius]

he end result of this is Kal has a vastly enhanced power to social fu, to figure out the west breserk buttons and know when one triggered it and make a few gestures as damage control. He could end up leading the west around by it nose, or just dance on the line of making west freak out, slowly making that the new norm until the west gets used to it.

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Exactly.
Superman could very easily(not fast tho) get a good understanding of the fears legitimate and not so much of the West and play around them.
Unless he is a deep dogmatist he will have to respond to the legitimate problems the USSR and Stalin rais and i think he could fairly easily by not being a Stalin.

 

[Ultrackius]

Sablin is a pretty good example,and even then i will say his Leninism is poisonous or are you ignoring that he is literally going against the party.
Also the whole revolutionary aspect of Marxist theory is true,now resolve the mass contradiction that come from effectively using the peasants are to dumb to be trusted(the prolateria) argument and how do you use effective dictatorship to advance towards communism.

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But he is going against the party on an ideological sense, saying that the party is too revisionist, and has bonded the principles of Lenin. I think that superman would be a slightly more auth Sablin more or less, in terms of policy.

And teh revolutionaries didn't argue that the peasants were too dumb to establish communism, they refuted it and said that it was possible, either as the left SRs said, with the peasants leading the revolution, or what the Bolsheviks said. with the peasants participating in teh revolution. The people who thought that the peasants were too dumb for it were teh right-Ss and the Menshaviks, who wanted a transition to capitalism before they did Socialism and then communism. These were the two factions that the Bolsheviks couped.

 

[Impirius]

And teh revolutionaries didn't argue that the peasants were too dumb to establish communism, they refuted it and said that it was possible, either as the left SRs said, with the peasants leading the revolution, or what the Bolsheviks said. with the peasants participating in teh revolution. The people who thought that the peasants were too dumb for it were teh right-Ss and the Menshaviks, who wanted a transition to capitalism before they did Socialism and then communism. These were the two factions that the Bolsheviks couped.

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Vanguardism literally takes the idea that the proletariat is to dumb to think for themselves and formes a state around it.

But he is going against the party on an ideological sense, saying that the party is too revisionist, and has bonded the principles of Lenin. I think that superman would be a slightly more auth Sablin more or less, in terms of policy.

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From Kaganovitch perspective Sablin is a revisionist as well as Bukharin and Lenin if you don't say his name,arguing that position is meaningless.
Superman also isn't Sablin he has the power and perception to understand and do things Sablin could only dream.
Also how would he deal with with the atrocious state of socialism in USSR and around the world ,Lenin and Stalin had more than enough years to poison the discussion by 43 and even more so by 53 with the main line communist ideology being purge happy authoritarianism with a side of for the future it will be worth it.

 

[Impirius]

Economically i agree he would keep planned economy and the rebuilding of the USSR would depend on how he deals with the Americans.
After that i honestly have no idea,technocratic computerized central planning would be a way to do it if he has the tech,but otherwise i don't know.
Also important the NKDV and its successors because they are pretty good at there job outside crushing internal dissent which Supes would stop.

Regardless of that how do you thing will he start transitioning into communism?

 

[NonSequtur]

When it comes to the economics, Red Son Superman was canonically Just Smart And Fast Enough to run the world into utopia himself. Once he gets past the period of reforms and consolidation and began the Ideal Command Economy, he might not be threatened by democratic movements because any polity that didn't listen to Superman - at least on economic grounds - would find itself being outcompeted.

 

[Impirius]

Once he gets past the period of reforms and consolidation and began the Ideal Command Economy, he might not be threatened by democratic movements because any polity that didn't listen to Superman - at least on economic grounds - would find itself being outcompeted.

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Unfortunately this theoretical Superman isn't a god king and will have to deal with an actual economic system that literally shouldn't rely on him since that would undermine the whole socialist concept of trying to achieve communist.
But i agree after 3-5 decades his USSR would probably be the beacon of progress and quite utopian by comparison,planned economy is one path if he has the tech tho any other ideas?

 

[Ultrackius]

Vanguardism literally takes the idea that the proletariat is to dumb to think for themselves and formes a state around it.


From Kaganovitch perspective Sablin is a revisionist as well as Bukharin and Lenin if you don't say his name,arguing that position is meaningless.
Superman also isn't Sablin he has the power and perception to understand and do things Sablin could only dream.
Also how would he deal with with the atrocious state of socialism in USSR and around the world ,Lenin and Stalin had more than enough years to poison the discussion by 43 and even more so by 53 with the main line communist ideology being purge happy authoritarianism with a side of for the future it will be worth it.

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Thats not what vanguardism is at all, the vanguard is still made up of the working class, it is the most politically active and class conscious members of the working class taking the helm of the state to suppress the remains of the bourgeoisie and reactionary movements, and to create a functional military. The working class is the vanguard, and you join the vanguard party itself has open membership, and is completely transparent in its operations. Its purpose is to defend the revolution and bring the pre revolution workers to class consciousness and ideally would be abolished immediately after the revolution, but since the German and French communist movements were crushed, and the Union grew increasingly isolated, and it had to be kept on to stop the revolution from being crushed completely. It is a organization made up of the proletariat completely, and exists because centralization is neccecery to defend the state.

I'm not saying Superman would be Sablin, I'm saying he would have an ideology similar to Sablin's, but made more auth to compensate for the fact that he's leading a whole Soviet Union+The Eastern Bloc, not just a small state in the Russian far east.

 

[Ultrackius]

Economically i agree he would keep planned economy and the rebuilding of the USSR would depend on how he deals with the Americans.
After that i honestly have no idea,technocratic computerized central planning would be a way to do it if he has the tech,but otherwise i don't know.
Also important the NKDV and its successors because they are pretty good at there job outside crushing internal dissent which Supes would stop.

Regardless of that how do you thing will he start transitioning into communism?

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He would probably have the tech for a more computer based one, even if we say that he doesn't have the fortress of solitude, the Soviets were developing a computer based central planning system, which might have led to an early creation of teh internet, but Khrushchev cancelled the program to focus on other things

 

[Impirius]

Thats not what vanguardism is at all, the vanguard is still made up of the working class, it is the most politically active and class conscious members of the working class taking the helm of the state to suppress the remains of the bourgeoisie and reactionary movements, and to create a functional military.

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I disagree with the excuses and apologies about vanguardism.
I will leave you at that.

I'm not saying Superman would be Sablin, I'm saying he would have an ideology similar to Sablin's, but made more auth to compensate for the fact that he's leading a whole Soviet Union+The Eastern Bloc, not just a small state in the Russian far east.

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Superman has the hard power to make that relevant.




Where do you stand on social issues because that would mather to?

 

[Impirius]

He would probably have the tech for a more computer based one, even if we say that he doesn't have the fortress of solitude, the Soviets were developing a computer based central planning system, which might have led to an early creation of teh internet, but Khrushchev cancelled the program to focus on other things

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To make that work he would need the fortress,waiting for computers to develop naturally would take far to long for someone who wants to transition to communism and isn't using excuses.

 

[Ultrackius]

I disagree with the excuses and apologies about vanguardism.
I will leave you at that.


Superman has the hard power to make that relevant.




Where do you stand on social issues because that would mather to?

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I dont feel like I was apologizing so much as explaining what they were and what their purpose was

Superman has the hard power, but since were going with a modern era strength superman he won't be able to do everything himself, especially things like a long occupation would be very difficult for him when compared to toppling a regime. I dont think he would be much more auth, just the small amount that lets him effectively govern larger areas of land then just Buryatia.


All the way left, I'm a full on transhumanist. For where superman stands, he'd probably go very progressive since the one thing we can agree on is that he discards pragmatism for a much more idealistic (In the modern sense, not the Marxist sense, he's still be a materialist of course) and ideological approach

 

[Impirius]

ll the way left, I'm a full on transhumanist. For where superman stands, he'd probably go very progressive since the one thing we can agree on is that he discards pragmatism for a much more idealistic (In the modern sense, not the Marxist sense, he's still be a materialist of course) and ideological approach

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We can agree on social issues at least.

Also no eastern block we already talked why there is no way to do that without being Stalin.

 

[Ultrackius]

We can agree on social issues at least.

Also no eastern block we already talked why there is no way to do that without being Stalin.

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"You can have complete independence and a democratic system, as well as funding to rebuild you from the war, as long as you don't do this one specific thing" ≠ Literally Stalin

 

[Impirius]

"You can have complete independence and a democratic system, as well as funding to rebuild you from the war, as long as you don't do this one specific thing" ≠ Literally Stalin

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You are so dumb.
The only communists in most of the states are Stalinist Stooges.
Will Superman brutalize eastern europe to maintain the oppressive dictatorships to?

Also the Marshall plan will be a thing and if possible eastern europe will join it like they wanted otl.
Or will Superman say stay poor like Stalin did.