How would a "realistic" Superman: Red Son play out?

Are you thick i just explained why thats stupid.
Do you want 1 party on the ballot?

The baltics have literally just being conquered as well as eastern Poland are you suggesting molotov ribbentrop pact is something superman would stand for?


Are you a Tanky seriously?


You just had the autocrat eliminated what do you think will happen?
1. You can have multiple parties fro different types of communism, or pull a Cuba and ban political parties completely, making everyone run as an independent

2. I dont think he would agree to it no, but he comes in either in 53, or when the Nazis invade the Soviets, both of which are after their annexation

3. I am not a Marxist-Leninist, and I have serious issues with the Soviet methods of governance and economy, but I dont believe myths made up by Nazi Germany and the CIA to slander them

4. Stalin died IRL and it didn't lead to the collapse of the Union
 
Thats a idiotic comparison.
Did the US invade the UK when they elected labor,did the US extort in the literal sense western europe?
They didn't invade the UK because the UK labour leaders, while they did want a much more nationalized economy, weren't going to implement communism. When Chile elected someone who would implement communism, they staged a coup

And yeah, they did, not to the extent of the Soviets of course, but they did everything they could to tie Western Europe to the USA financially
 
1. You can have multiple parties fro different types of communism, or pull a Cuba and ban political parties completely, making everyone run as an independent
First-There are no multiple communist parties to run.
Second-If everyone is independent then the communists lose even harder.

2. I dont think he would agree to it no, but he comes in either in 53, or when the Nazis invade the Soviets, both of which are after their annexation
And that changes the situation how?

3. I am not a Marxist-Leninist, and I have serious issues with the Soviet methods of governance and economy, but I dont believe myths made up by Nazi Germany and the CIA to slander them
Then list what soviet atrocities do you believe in?
From my perspective soviet crimes aren't "propaganda" considering my country is still suffering from their actions and there are plenty testimonies of how disciplined the Red Army was.

4. Stalin died IRL and it didn't lead to the collapse of the Union
This is the USSR in full war with a literal alien god taking power from said autocrat,and this is literally the least of the problems,what happens when the party moves against him.
 
First-There are no multiple communist parties to run.
Second-If everyone is independent then the communists lose even harder.


And that changes the situation how?


Then list what soviet atrocities do you believe in?
From my perspective soviet crimes aren't "propaganda" considering my country is still suffering from their actions and there are plenty testimonies of how disciplined the Red Army was.


This is the USSR in full war with a literal alien god taking power from said autocrat,and this is literally the least of the problems,what happens when the party moves against him.
1. You can make parties, and the communists wouldn't lose because capitalists wouldn't be allowed to run

2. Why would he give up on land just because it was got during a deal with Germany? If anything, his issue would be how they left the rest of Europe for teh Nazis to occupy

3. The Soviets did plenty of bad things, from Lenin's banning of the SRs, to Stalin's great purge, to Khruschevs crushing of Hungary.

4. He wouldn't take over unless teh party supported him, if were going with teh 53 divergence, Stalin handpicks him as successor, and he's too immortal for Khruchev to coup. If were going with teh WW2 one, then Stalin dies a little bit after teh Nazis fall, and he's an immensely popular war hero who single handedly crushed fascism, and liberated Europe, as well as being trained for leadership by Stalin. If anything teh succession will be much, much less messy
 
1. You can make parties, and the communists wouldn't lose because capitalists wouldn't be allowed to run
So you want communist 1,2,3,4,5 or 5 that are literally the same.
Just recognise that you want a way to legitimize soviet puppet regimes.

2. Why would he give up on land just because it was got during a deal with Germany? If anything, his issue would be how they left the rest of Europe for teh Nazis to occupy
They were literally conquered in a deal with Hitler.
By the same logic why don't we just let the nazis keep the pre soviet invasion border that was won fair and square after all.

3. The Soviets did plenty of bad things, from Lenin's banning of the SRs, to Stalin's great purge, to Khruschevs crushing of Hungary.
Holdomer,Lenin starting the death work camps(gulags) that Stalin expanded,ethnic cleansing in Kazakhstan,The Baltics,Crimea and Moldova.
Acknowledge that and we can talk about the USSR unders superman honestly.

4. He wouldn't take over unless teh party supported him, if were going with teh 53 divergence, Stalin handpicks him as successor, and he's too immortal for Khruchev to coup. If were going with teh WW2 one, then Stalin dies a little bit after teh Nazis fall, and he's an immensely popular war hero who single handedly crushed fascism, and liberated Europe, as well as being trained for leadership by Stalin. If anything teh succession will be much, much less messy
If he succeeded Stalin he has to deal with being Stalin's successor,if he takes power during the war he will be the hero of the USSR not the hero of the party.
The politburo didn't give a shit about the people by this point.
And if Superman coups let's say Beria you get civil war or at a minimum revolt in the army.(Which doesn't matter because Superman wouldn't do that if he is in character)
 
Are you a Tanky seriously?

Yes, actually, I think he is.

In any case, beyond Eastern Europe:

In Asia, Supes's ability to influence is deeply limited. There's a PRC in the way, and you'd better believe the Sino-Soviet split is going to happen much faster and harder, with this mealy-willed crypto-Capitalist running the show in Russia. (Actual free elections!? What if the wrong sorts of Communists win!?). Korea's already said and done, with one side a Chinese puppet and the other an American satellite; nothing he can do there aside from urge both sides to get down to having actual elections.

In Indochina, we have an interesting case: without as much Soviet support for the Viet Cong, they might have a harder time kicking the French out; but with Eastern Europe domino-ing in the opposite direction, it's very likely the US tells the French to pound sand (in Algeria) when they come begging for help. Lots of butterflies could send the outcome any which-way, but the most likely event is pretty much what happens, subbing in a few more liberal regimes due to the different choices in what outside forces are funding. (When huge numbers of ex-communist states start having actual elections, it kind of reverse the historical truth of "we don't dare let the communists take over, they'll cancel all further elections and you're stuck as a satellite state of Russia or China forever". In general you'll see much less support for 'any means necessary' on the Western side, given that the big threat that was brutally occupying a huge chunk of Europe and screaming "We Will Bury You!" is gone.)

India and Pakistan do their same mess. Nothing much Supes can do- though not funding the various loony-bin religious groups on either side will help, whether they proclaim they're doing it for the Workers or not. Also helpful: not invading Afghanistan.

In the Middle East, Soviet support for the Ba'ath regimes and various Arab Nationalist dictators dries up, in lieu of pushing for actual Socialist Democracies (good luck, there, Supes). Without it, the Arab attempts to eliminate Israel go even worse, if that's even possible. Not a lot of other changes, though generally the lack of the Cold War competition means the area is simply ignored more than OTL.

Latin America and Africa in general go somewhat smoother; when the outcome of losing the nation to communists just means you get a democratic chance to make it up later, rather than no more elections ever, it doesn't pay to repress them as much. (They also make more headway, being lumped in with the democratic socialists as part of the 'free left'.) Decolonization is messy, naturally, and South Africa is certainly going to be as much a pain ITTL as OTL.

Overall, decolonization is slowed by the USSR not being willing to toss funding at whatever insurgent group spouts the party line (Supes would be discerning), but goes much smoother and to better result because the argument is "where is the line our economic system should function at, vis-a-vis level of government ownership" instead of "communist dictatorship, nationalist dictatorship, or liberal democracy", with the last of these simply not available to people aligning with Moscow?

Heh. Having the government of the Soviet Union actually care about the ideology they espouse, to include the little details like "free religion, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, democratic government", as opposed to being massive hypocrites that didn't care enough about their own constitution to change it... changes quite a few things, actually, if relatively subtly.

Like I said, the whole thing is basically "what if Soviet Russia, but instead Huge Sweden". The simple removal of a titanic force for totalitarian repression on one side of the scale and its addition as a force for liberal democracy (whatever the economic system used) on the other shifts the whole of the late 20th century in a much more positive direction.
 
"we don't dare let the communists take over, they'll cancel all further elections and you're stuck as a satellite state of Russia or China forever"
If Superman enforced free elections in Vietnam the Communists would win.
And when they try to cancel elections superman will enforce them along with the US.
This could be a very interesting dynamic honestly.


Overall, decolonization is slowed by the USSR not being willing to toss funding at whatever insurgent group spouts the party line
I don't know about this,if Supes is pro national independence in the Lenin sense he could be a force for good there.
But considering the difficulties he will face in Russia alone,retreating into relative isolation is posible.


Do you guys thin the US would be willing to reach an agreement on China?
No Mao or Chiang Kai Shek(or his son) as a base.
 
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If Superman enforced free elections in Vietnam the Communists would win.
And when they try to cancel elections superman will enforce them along with the US.
This could be a very interesting dynamic honestly.

Hrm, true. But... trick there is: enforce them with what? Historically, the Viet Minh were heavily USSR-backed (for rather obvious historical reasons, they were a little leery of the Chinese, and the USSR had better kit and more reach anyway). If Supes isn't supporting them anymore because they're "no elections" Communists, he's lost a major method of influence by the time the split happens and both sides take over (and one promptly declares no more elections and the other gets coup'd).

Well, I guess he could fly in himself and charisma-bomb the proceedings. This might backfire, though; it's definitely meddling in other nation's business, and it's really early- his person cred might not be up to the task of differentiating himself from all the other Westerners telling the Vietnamese what to do.

Along with this is the USSR's massive drop in international power and prestige resulting from it appearing to completely implode, along with it suddenly not funding huge numbers of groups it previously did. As Supes' regime gets stabilized, internal elections start happening, and he starts getting the resources to put towards international aid again, it'll pick back up and Russia will start being seen as a big force for de-colonization and liberal democracy (though dude, don't try to emulate their economic model directly, it takes an alien god to run it). The Vietnam situation is happening too quick for that, though.

Hrm. I can see this as an early China gambit- backing Ho Chi Minh as the north's "true communist" patrons against the south. Supes simply wouldn't have much influence on either side, unless he's willing to send arms and equipment to people that are fundamentally illiberal and undemocratic (and thus, by an ideological reading of communism, uncommunist).

Whether the NVA and Viet Cong backed by the PRC rather than the USSR would still prevail against the RVN and USA is a hard one to call. There's a lot of hardware that they'll be missing.
 
So you want communist 1,2,3,4,5 or 5 that are literally the same.
Just recognise that you want a way to legitimize soviet puppet regimes.


They were literally conquered in a deal with Hitler.
By the same logic why don't we just let the nazis keep the pre soviet invasion border that was won fair and square after all.


Holdomer,Lenin starting the death work camps(gulags) that Stalin expanded,ethnic cleansing in Kazakhstan,The Baltics,Crimea and Moldova.
Acknowledge that and we can talk about the USSR unders superman honestly.


If he succeeded Stalin he has to deal with being Stalin's successor,if he takes power during the war he will be the hero of the USSR not the hero of the party.
The politburo didn't give a shit about the people by this point.
And if Superman coups let's say Beria you get civil war or at a minimum revolt in the army.(Which doesn't matter because Superman wouldn't do that if he is in character)
1. It wouldn't legitimize them because they would cease to exist, and be replaced with completely new systems

2. No, but Superman leads the Soviet Union, his goal is global communism, why would he give up land just because the previous leaders gained it in a bad way? His opposition to teh M-R pact would not be that the Soviet conquered the Baltics, it would be that the Nazis got almost everything else.


3. So a natural famine, a prison system already in place when the Revolution happened, which was reformed to be less cruel under the USSR, and a bunch of CIA myths? Acnoledge teh reality of teh USSR, and we can talk about what happens when he takes over

4. The Politibuero very much had to worry about popular opinion, that's why teh secret speech was secret, Stalin was too popular to publicly denounce. And IRL Molotov and teh hardliners were cooped by Khruchev, and no civil war happened. I dont see why copping Beria, who litterally no one, in the public, or the party liked, would couase one
 
Yes, actually, I think he is.

In any case, beyond Eastern Europe:

In Asia, Supes's ability to influence is deeply limited. There's a PRC in the way, and you'd better believe the Sino-Soviet split is going to happen much faster and harder, with this mealy-willed crypto-Capitalist running the show in Russia. (Actual free elections!? What if the wrong sorts of Communists win!?). Korea's already said and done, with one side a Chinese puppet and the other an American satellite; nothing he can do there aside from urge both sides to get down to having actual elections.

In Indochina, we have an interesting case: without as much Soviet support for the Viet Cong, they might have a harder time kicking the French out; but with Eastern Europe domino-ing in the opposite direction, it's very likely the US tells the French to pound sand (in Algeria) when they come begging for help. Lots of butterflies could send the outcome any which-way, but the most likely event is pretty much what happens, subbing in a few more liberal regimes due to the different choices in what outside forces are funding. (When huge numbers of ex-communist states start having actual elections, it kind of reverse the historical truth of "we don't dare let the communists take over, they'll cancel all further elections and you're stuck as a satellite state of Russia or China forever". In general you'll see much less support for 'any means necessary' on the Western side, given that the big threat that was brutally occupying a huge chunk of Europe and screaming "We Will Bury You!" is gone.)

India and Pakistan do their same mess. Nothing much Supes can do- though not funding the various loony-bin religious groups on either side will help, whether they proclaim they're doing it for the Workers or not. Also helpful: not invading Afghanistan.

In the Middle East, Soviet support for the Ba'ath regimes and various Arab Nationalist dictators dries up, in lieu of pushing for actual Socialist Democracies (good luck, there, Supes). Without it, the Arab attempts to eliminate Israel go even worse, if that's even possible. Not a lot of other changes, though generally the lack of the Cold War competition means the area is simply ignored more than OTL.

Latin America and Africa in general go somewhat smoother; when the outcome of losing the nation to communists just means you get a democratic chance to make it up later, rather than no more elections ever, it doesn't pay to repress them as much. (They also make more headway, being lumped in with the democratic socialists as part of the 'free left'.) Decolonization is messy, naturally, and South Africa is certainly going to be as much a pain ITTL as OTL.

Overall, decolonization is slowed by the USSR not being willing to toss funding at whatever insurgent group spouts the party line (Supes would be discerning), but goes much smoother and to better result because the argument is "where is the line our economic system should function at, vis-a-vis level of government ownership" instead of "communist dictatorship, nationalist dictatorship, or liberal democracy", with the last of these simply not available to people aligning with Moscow?

Heh. Having the government of the Soviet Union actually care about the ideology they espouse, to include the little details like "free religion, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, democratic government", as opposed to being massive hypocrites that didn't care enough about their own constitution to change it... changes quite a few things, actually, if relatively subtly.

Like I said, the whole thing is basically "what if Soviet Russia, but instead Huge Sweden". The simple removal of a titanic force for totalitarian repression on one side of the scale and its addition as a force for liberal democracy (whatever the economic system used) on the other shifts the whole of the late 20th century in a much more positive direction.
I'm too tired go over every specific point, so I will just go over the bases where I think you fundamentally misunderstand what a Communist Superman would do

1. There would likely be more Soviet support for rebel groups like teh Viet-Kong, not less, since Superman would be deeply ideological, and devoted to the international revolution.

2. Communist Superman would never let the Soviet bloc just out and become capitalist. Its anathema to teh Communist doctrine he will be devoted to.

3. The middle East will probably be a major contested region in any cold war, simply due to its oil.

4. Superman, would not endorse letting capitalists run in communist nations, ever. He would be devoted to ideology, at the cost of things like geo-political sense, or calming tensions. And that ideoligical setup would never endorse letting capitalists (or worse, fascists) run in election.

5. They wouldn't be less likely to send money and guns to rebels, they'd be far more, supporting any communist movement, damn the consequences to their foreign relations, or economy, or global tension.

6. Decolonization would probably end up a far more messy affair, with many more proxy wars of colonial powers trying to crush rebels before superman decides to fly in and wipe their army away.

7. The Soviets would never end up as a mega Sweden, because a Mega-Sweden would still be fundamentally capitalist to its core. While I do agree that the options would no longer be Nationalist dictatorship, Communist dictatorship, and Liberal "democracy", they would instead be Nationalist dictatorship, Liberal "democracy", and Communist Democracy, with maybe a few communist dictatorships around in their own mini-bloc.
 
1. It wouldn't legitimize them because they would cease to exist, and be replaced with completely new systems
1 party state is undemocratic and so Superman would crush it.
Accept that if you want superman and not Man of Stalin the eastern bloc isn't a thing.

2. No, but Superman leads the Soviet Union, his goal is global communism, why would he give up land just because the previous leaders gained it in a bad way? His opposition to teh M-R pact would not be that the Soviet conquered the Baltics, it would be that the Nazis got almost everything else.
You are arguing a pro imperialist position please tell me you arent that close minded.

3. So a natural famine, a prison system already in place when the Revolution happened, which was reformed to be less cruel under the USSR, and a bunch of CIA myths? Acnoledge teh reality of teh USSR, and we can talk about what happens when he takes over
The fammine was intentional or an absurdes scale of criminal negligence(they where exporting grain from Ukraine during famine),
1-Did you just downplay the soviet death camps and 2 retaining and expanding death camps is not a negative in what way?

4. The Politibuero very much had to worry about popular opinion, that's why teh secret speech was secret, Stalin was too popular to publicly denounce. And IRL Molotov and teh hardliners were cooped by Khruchev, and no civil war happened. I dont see why copping Beria, who litterally no one, in the public, or the party liked, would couase one
You are seriously ignoring what i'm saying here the context is massively different.
Kruschev didn't coup the party in a gross illegal action there would be chaos.
 
1. There would likely be more Soviet support for rebel groups like teh Viet-Kong, not less, since Superman would be deeply ideological, and devoted to the international revolution.

2. Communist Superman would never let the Soviet bloc just out and become capitalist. Its anathema to teh Communist doctrine he will be devoted to.

3. The middle East will probably be a major contested region in any cold war, simply due to its oil.

4. Superman, would not endorse letting capitalists run in communist nations, ever. He would be devoted to ideology, at the cost of things like geo-political sense, or calming tensions. And that ideoligical setup would never endorse letting capitalists (or worse, fascists) run in election.

5. They wouldn't be less likely to send money and guns to rebels, they'd be far more, supporting any communist movement, damn the consequences to their foreign relations, or economy, or global tension.

6. Decolonization would probably end up a far more messy affair, with many more proxy wars of colonial powers trying to crush rebels before superman decides to fly in and wipe their army away.

7. The Soviets would never end up as a mega Sweden, because a Mega-Sweden would still be fundamentally capitalist to its core. While I do agree that the options would no longer be Nationalist dictatorship, Communist dictatorship, and Liberal "democracy", they would instead be Nationalist dictatorship, Liberal "democracy", and Communist Democracy, with maybe a few communist dictatorships around in their own mini-bloc.
Then make a What if Stalin gained Superman's powers thread since you obviously want Tanky wish fulfilment with a superman skin.
 
Hrm, true. But... trick there is: enforce them with what? Historically, the Viet Minh were heavily USSR-backed (for rather obvious historical reasons, they were a little leery of the Chinese, and the USSR had better kit and more reach anyway). If Supes isn't supporting them anymore because they're "no elections" Communists, he's lost a major method of influence by the time the split happens and both sides take over (and one promptly declares no more elections and the other gets coup'd).
Brute force can do wonders even if we are using a weaker superman.
The Vietnamese communists would have to deal with China and that is complicated.
Any ideas on how that war will swing now that Superman is keeping Manchuria away from the CCP and KMT.(Maybe a bargaining cheap for negotiations)
Mao still has the advantage of not being the KMT.
 
Then make a What if Stalin gained Superman's powers thread since you obviously want Tanky wish fulfilment with a superman skin.
No I don't. Stalin would be a completely different character.

I think I see the issue. We all agree that Superman would be intensely ideological, just with "truth, justice, and the American Way" replaced with "Freedom, Equality, and the International Proletariat". But we disagree on what that would lead to. You seem to be going off the assumption that a more rigidly ideological communist would be more open to capitalists asking for capitalism, less aggressive, and more focused on internal issues then exporting communism, and that when communists do things like, purge capitalists, invaded neighboring states, and fund communist revolutions that is a break from what they should be doing ideologically, and instead a move out of geo-political self interest only. But that simply isn't what the ideological line is. Extremely ideological communists consider things like allowing capitalists to promote their system, calming world tensions, making peace with capitalist powers, and spending money that could be used to fund revolutions in other states on more superfluous things a deviation from the ideological line, and a move made purely out of geo-political self interest.

The left wing, more attacks on the Soviets are not that they invaded Eastern Europe, but that they stopped at Berlin. There not that they purged capitalists, but that they missed several revisionists, like Deng, and Khruschev. They are not that they funded dictatorial communist groups, but that they left them to die. They have these criticisms while also advocating for a more democratic communist system, with the Worker's Soviets having more direct power, and the Politburo and the Council of Soviets biegn weakened. These are not contradictions, they are authoritarian goals in some areas, and libertarian goals in others.

I would also like to clarify that these are not my positions, I think that the Ultra-Left makes many mistakes, and overlooks many things that could be helpful in the name of ideological purity. My point is that if Superman is ultra-ideological, and devoted to the goals of Communism over the power of the party, it is these positions he will likely take, not their opposites.
 
Any ideas on how that war will swing now that Superman is keeping Manchuria away from the CCP and KMT.(Maybe a bargaining cheap for negotiations)

Unfortunately, he comes to late to make any difference. Effective end of the Chinese Civil War, and the retreat of the KMT to Taiwan, was 1949. By the time Supes takes over with Stalin's death in '53, Mao and Co are large and in charge- and there's very little he can do about it without basically declaring war.

(One complication of running a nation: OTL Superman flies in and grabs your local dictator for delivery to an international court or whoever, he's being a superhero. ITL Superman does that, he's basically declaring war on behalf of Russia. Tricky business.)


My point is that if Superman is ultra-ideological, and devoted to the goals of Communism over the power of the party, it is these positions he will likely take, not their opposites.

Ideologically pure communism features freedom of expression, religion, press, association, and assembly, as well as democratic government via free and fair elections. If he's respecting that, he has to let people make their own decisions, instead of use violence to impose his own upon them.
 
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I think I see the issue. We all agree that Superman would be intensely ideological, just with "truth, justice, and the American Way" replaced with "Freedom, Equality, and the International Proletariat"
We disagree on what "Freedom, Equality, and the International Proletariat" is actually.
You seem to think that supporting red tyranny and red imperialism could in any way open the way to achieving communism in the same way the otl USSR did wich is baffling to me.
I am working of Superman's idealism combined with honest socialist ethos and compassion.
In my scenario Superman could easily achieve an actual communist societal basis in 2-5 decades and after he succeeds the world will look to him and follow in example like it always happens according to Marx.

The left wing, more attacks on the Soviets are not that they invaded Eastern Europe, but that they stopped at Berlin. There not that they purged capitalists, but that they missed several revisionists, like Deng, and Khruschev. They are not that they funded dictatorial communist groups, but that they left them to die. They have these criticisms while also advocating for a more democratic communist system, with the Worker's Soviets having more direct power, and the Politburo and the Council of Soviets biegn weakened. These are not contradictions, they are authoritarian goals in some areas, and libertarian goals in others.
You are the tankies tankie i ever talked to,are you seriously ignoring all the criticism of the USSR right of Trotsky?
 
Unfortunately, he comes to late to make any difference. Effective end of the Chinese Civil War, and the retreat of the KMT to Taiwan, was 1949. By the time Supes takes over with Stalin's death in '53, Mao and Co are large and in charge- and there's very little he can do about it without basically declaring war.
I'm referring to the scenario where he takes over during ww2.
 
We disagree on what "Freedom, Equality, and the International Proletariat" is actually.
You seem to think that supporting red tyranny and red imperialism could in any way open the way to achieving communism in the same way the otl USSR did wich is baffling to me.
I am working of Superman's idealism combined with honest socialist ethos and compassion.
In my scenario Superman could easily achieve an actual communist societal basis in 2-5 decades and after he succeeds the world will look to him and follow in example like it always happens according to Marx.


You are the tankies tankie i ever talked to,are you seriously ignoring all the criticism of the USSR right of Trotsky?
I'm not a Tankie, I am not a Marxist-Leninists and I don't particularly like Stalin.

And there is a reason I said "left wing criticism" as the criticism from the right was that they were too focused on ideological purity, and should be more pragmatic.
 
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