How strong would a Masquerade have to be to survive in the modern world?

Actually, the core of science is that everything runs on coherent rules
I didn't say science had to be consistent, I said science assumes reality is consistent. That is, fair rules of play, there will be gravity tomorrow, no retro-active 'events', etc etc.

You cannot get coherent rules on an inconsistent reality, but then again inconsistent reality is not that strongly defined.
 
...that was a thing proven by using measurements that showed it to be true... If the Sun did orbit the Earth, then those measurements would have shown that the sun did, in fact, orbit the Earth.

Well, actually the measurements showed that the other planets were orbiting the sun and the guy who took them said "why not Earth?" But the point still stands that if the once-commonly-accepted geocentric model of the universe was actually true, then the measurements that disproved it would have supported it instead.
I think its less measurements and just going there. Remember, Mages have more advanced stuff then the plebians. Apparently, beyond earth orbit was basically the umbra until Technocracy/order of reason said it should be space and wala there we go. Mages have spaceships and wage war on each other in space.

The measurements are arbitrary.

As I posted already:
The Horizon is the result of the omnipotent gestalt entity that is humanity using its power to enforce its will, as far as I know other settings don't tend to have anything like that. And you misunderstand, it is not an external power given to humanity as reality is soft and malleable, reality BECOMES soft and malleable due to the power of will. When you are omnipotent reality is in a very real way a transitory thing, an illusion and temporary lie. It is something without true substance and relevance.

This is not science.
 
...that was a thing proven by using measurements that showed it to be true... If the Sun did orbit the Earth, then those measurements would have shown that the sun did, in fact, orbit the Earth.

Well, actually the measurements showed that the other planets were orbiting the sun and the guy who took them said "why not Earth?" But the point still stands that if the once-commonly-accepted geocentric model of the universe was actually true, then the measurements that disproved it would have supported it instead.

Measurements... made up... under a set of rules which were made up as an ad hoc justification for why other people's wizard tricks don't work and why the Order of Reason's do. In oMage, science is literally Calvinball. This is what you keep not getting and what @Space Penguin keeps trying to tell you. The rules of physics are not actually a neutral observation, but a deliberately created weapon by posthuman godlings fighting a war for reality itself. Science not being able to explain magic is a feature, not a bug, and they are going to keep it that way.

That's why the Sons of Ether exist and have sympathizers. Yes, 'scientists' might come across something that the scientific consensus (hue hue hue) doesn't explain. If you can't figure out how to reconcile it, not keeping your yap shut about it is a very good way to never get on the front page of the news except as "BREAKING: DELUDED AND DISGRACED EX-SCIENTIST KILLS FAMILY, SELF, BECAUSE OF DELUSIONS"
 
Indeed, in oMage you can go so far as to argue that something like "the current human form"(described by the sphere of Life) is just something people believe in, just like "the earth exists", "causality exists", "time passes in a single direction", "you can calculate stuff" and "space exists" are all ideas people have, which means they can be changed if you convince enough people of it.

In fact, this thread is a sterling example of how powerful the Technocratic paradigm is. It assimilates other paradigms, explains them and reduces them to component parts and tears them from any idea of a higher truth, then taking whatever components that are useful and discards the rest until it moves onwards to find more things to assimilate and explain.
 
Indeed, in oMage you can go so far as to argue that something like "the current human form"(described by the sphere of Life) is just something people believe in, just like "the earth exists", "causality exists", "time passes in a single direction", "you can calculate stuff" and "space exists" are all ideas people have, which means they can be changed if you convince enough people of it.
Although the one about time passing in a single direction is probably one of the Cosmological Constants. Also, space as we know it seems to be largely a consensual illusion/delusion (which is why Correspondence works the way it does).
 
Although the one about time passing in a single direction is probably one of the Cosmological Constants. Also, space as we know it seems to be largely a consensual illusion/delusion (which is why Correspondence works the way it does).
Well, remember that the whole idea of cosmological constants was introduced in one book, mentioned in one sidebar, in a single off-handed mention.

Now, if we go by that sidebar (which we probably should for the sake of consistency and sanity), time passing forward is probably a cosmological constant, but the thing is that it's very easy to forget that this was literally never mentioned out of the revised corebook, and isn't all that clear in the first place except for being "some stuff you can't change with magic".

With regards to space, there does seem to be hints that it is a consensual delusion of difference, what with all space being one space, though I suspect this is legacy code from the early days of the pseudo-gnostic 1e where everything was weird and different and the character in the introductory story had a katana and a trenchcoat and was named Raphael and wasn't a radioactive ninja turtle at all.
 
Indeed, in oMage you can go so far as to argue that something like "the current human form"(described by the sphere of Life) is just something people believe in, just like "the earth exists", "causality exists", "time passes in a single direction", "you can calculate stuff" and "space exists" are all ideas people have, which means they can be changed if you convince enough people of it.

In fact, this thread is a sterling example of how powerful the Technocratic paradigm is. It assimilates other paradigms, explains them and reduces them to component parts and tears them from any idea of a higher truth, then taking whatever components that are useful and discards the rest until it moves onwards to find more things to assimilate and explain.
Although the one about time passing in a single direction is probably one of the Cosmological Constants. Also, space as we know it seems to be largely a consensual illusion/delusion (which is why Correspondence works the way it does).
Well, remember that the whole idea of cosmological constants was introduced in one book, mentioned in one sidebar, in a single off-handed mention.

Now, if we go by that sidebar (which we probably should for the sake of consistency and sanity), time passing forward is probably a cosmological constant, but the thing is that it's very easy to forget that this was literally never mentioned out of the revised corebook, and isn't all that clear in the first place except for being "some stuff you can't change with magic".

With regards to space, there does seem to be hints that it is a consensual delusion of difference, what with all space being one space, though I suspect this is legacy code from the early days of the pseudo-gnostic 1e where everything was weird and different and the character in the introductory story had a katana and a trenchcoat and was named Raphael and wasn't a radioactive ninja turtle at all.
Considering you can create universes once you go beyond the playable system to sphere 9 and 10 and in such universes you can craft whatever laws you want. I don't think space and time are that constant. The true "reality" is basically the umbra, tellurian, whatever.

Hell, IIRC, Demon the Fallen stated that humanity was made in Gods's image, not body image but soul or something? Its quite possible that GOD gave onto humanity the same capability that made him/her/it omnipotent in the first place. Which handily explains why GOD did not want the angels to interfere with humanity cause GOD wanted humanity to grow up on its own, to discover stuff on its own, to become like GOD on their own. So the OWoD is basically a nursery.

The Angels in their Hubris ruined GOD's nursery. No wonder, God is pissed at them.
 
Now, if we go by that sidebar (which we probably should for the sake of consistency and sanity), time passing forward is probably a cosmological constant, but the thing is that it's very easy to forget that this was literally never mentioned out of the revised corebook, and isn't all that clear in the first place except for being "some stuff you can't change with magic".

Nah, there's no reason at all that the flow of time being all in one direction is a cosmological constant - and good reason it shouldn't be, given that the core of the Cult of Ecstasy is that time is an illusion.

After all, given sufficient paradigm engineering you can make 5 dot effects into a normal part of life (for example, human pregnancy is Mind 5, Life 5, arguably-Spirit-5-if-your-paradigm-accepts-spirits). Therefore, given appropriate paradigm and Consensus engineering, one can make time travel a basic facet of life - and at that point, the flow of time as a one-directional thing no longer matters. Therefore the arrow of time is not a "cosmological constant".
 
Considering you can create universes once you go beyond the playable system to sphere 9 and 10 and in such universes you can craft whatever laws you want. I don't think space and time are that constant. The true "reality" is basically the umbra, tellurian, whatever.

Hell, IIRC, Demon the Fallen stated that humanity was made in Gods's image, not body image but soul or something? Its quite possible that GOD gave onto humanity the same capability that made him/her/it omnipotent in the first place. Which handily explains why GOD did not want the angels to interfere with humanity cause GOD wanted humanity to grow up on its own, to discover stuff on its own, to become like GOD on their own. So the OWoD is basically a nursery.

The Angels in their Hubris ruined GOD's nursery. No wonder, God is pissed at them.
No you can't crossover the lines like that, we have dozens of pages explaining why you can't in the White Wolf thread, but the most central is that the other gamelines assume specific cosmologies while mage screams "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" and Werewolf mutters something about the good old days and genocide. There is no true reality, there is no true existence, there is only the truth you make for yourself, God could very well be an Arete 10 Archmaster, but God could also be the dream of a good government or a delusion of idiots or a true, loving father in the Heavens, in fact all of those can exist at once because haha consensual reality deos whatever it wants.

And honestly, time as it is just means that things decay and existence is progressive, and that doesn't really feel like a cosmological constant to me.
Nah, there's no reason at all that the flow of time being all in one direction is a cosmological constant - and good reason it shouldn't be, given that the core of the Cult of Ecstasy is that time is an illusion.

After all, given sufficient paradigm engineering you can make 5 dot effects into a normal part of life (for example, human pregnancy is Mind 5, Life 5, arguably-Spirit-5-if-your-paradigm-accepts-spirits). Therefore, given appropriate paradigm and Consensus engineering, one can make time travel a basic facet of life - and at that point, the flow of time as a one-directional thing no longer matters. Therefore the arrow of time is not a "cosmological constant".
...As @EarthScorpion pointed out. Sigh.
 
No you can't crossover the lines like that, we have dozens of pages explaining why you can't in the White Wolf thread, but the most central is that the other gamelines assume specific cosmologies while mage screams "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" and Werewolf mutters something about the good old days and genocide. There is no true reality, there is no true existence, there is only the truth you make for yourself, God could very well be an Arete 10 Archmaster, but God could also be the dream of a good government or a delusion of idiots or a true, loving father in the Heavens, in fact all of those can exist at once because haha consensual reality deos whatever it wants.

And honestly, time as it is just means that things decay and existence is progressive, and that doesn't really feel like a cosmological constant to me.

...As @EarthScorpion pointed out. Sigh.
Oh I know they don't mix. They can't mix. White Wolf tried to mix them with Demon the fallen saying that reality is made of layers where different cosmologies are true. It fails of course. But still the idea does explain why humans are so powerful when they become Mages. They are GOD's true children/inheritors, etc.

And yeah, true reality is a wrong word to use. Reality is earth and the solar system. Beyond it is the umbra/tellurian/whatever is where the rest of existence is and one can make their own truth.
 
Oh I know they don't mix. They can't mix. White Wolf tried to mix them with Demon the fallen saying that reality is made of layers where different cosmologies are true. It fails of course. But still the idea does explain why humans are so powerful when they become Mages. They are GOD's true children/inheritors, etc.
No it's easy to explain why humanity is so powerful, and that's because humans are sleeping gods, who dream up their own world and their own gods and their own demons in their long sleep, and mages are lucid dreamers who can do whatever they want, once the mists of "reality" have been lifted from their eyes. In Mage: The Ascension, God exists, and His name is humanity.
 
No it's easy to explain why humanity is so powerful, and that's because humans are sleeping gods, who dream up their own world and their own gods and their own demons in their long sleep, and mages are lucid dreamers who can do whatever they want, once the mists of "reality" have been lifted from their eyes. In Mage: The Ascension, God exists, and His name is humanity.
But why are they God's in the first place is the question. 2 Possibilities are known to me. 1] When Exalted was still the past of OWoD, the Sidereals shards became the Mages or gifted humanity there power or 2] God made humanity in its image aka equal to GOD when grown up(my own idea)
 
True facts, rea actual physicists theorize that a overwhelming majority of the universe is almost completely inobservable, it only creates gravitational effects we can't otherwise explain.

As to the people who are saying "but my statistics". People brush some really weird shit off like the guy who was struck by lightening 5 times over 20ish years. We go damn that's weird and then nothing comes of it. Rain of blood, frogs or fish. Science says "Tornados maybe?".

Ah, but you have just proven my entire point.

One person getting hit with lightning five times in twenty years is weird. That same person getting hit fifty times in twenty years is not only weird, it's downright creepy, and possibly a reason to avoid issuing homeowners insurance to a person. If our hypothetical person gets hit by lightning five hundred times...well, that sort of stands out, but, again, it's just one person. Weird, yeah. Terrifying, probably. Definitely somebody to listen to when he says "if you're doing X when you get hit by lightning, than you'll probably survive". But otherwise, nothing special.

Ten people who get hit five times in twenty years...okay, that starts to stand out. But it's still well within the bounds of probability, provided you've got a large enough population, or they're doing the right kind of work to earn a living. People who work on electrical lines have this sort of issue--that's one of the reasons they wear all that safety gear. The problem comes when you get five or ten people who get zapped that often in a small farming community. That sort of statistic gets attention...but probably not much, to be honest.

A hundred people...okay, now we're talking potentially significant numbers. They can still disappear into the background, but making sure they do so will take some effort, and if they start to concentrate around certain locations, it gets noticed--even in the real world, certain areas are known to have a lightning strike chance that is much higher than the rest of the country. And if those lightning strikes are being caused by someone, or something, that will start creating oddities--a lightning mage dies, for instance, and the incidence of lightning strikes in the area drops. This is actually past the point where insurance companies sit up and take notice--as I said, certain professions get more lightning strikes than others, and we know this because lightning strikes are common enough that studies have been made, trying to determine why some people get struck more often. For the record, about 300 people get hit by lightning every year, so...yeah, 100 people who each get hit by lightning 5 times over the course of 20 years, out of a total of 3000 strikes, is now going to really stand out. This is the point where you NEED a Masquerade--you will have to come up with reasonable explanations for all 100 of those people, because they represent a disproportionate number of people who get hit by lightning.

And yeah, this was something of a bad example, except that it really isn't. There is an actual database of lightning strikes (it is called the Spatial Hazards and Losses Database, and is maintained by the University of South Carolina, if you're interested), that records location, victim's name, SSN, etc, and all that jazz for every person who gets hit by lightning. It is paid for by--surprise, surprise--the nation's insurance companies, who use it to try to calculate the odds, and therefore the insurance rates, for people having lightning-related accidents. There probably isn't anybody in the country who's gotten struck by lightning that often, but if there is, I promise you, he's been recorded in the database, and the scientists at the University of South Carolina have investigated, and come to a conclusion.

So...yeah. One in a million, normal humans can and likely will explain away, no problem. There are 300 million people in this country, roughly , so the scale works. Beyond that...you can't escape the statistics, my friend. There is money involved in this crap, and we're not talking small amounts of money, either--whomever can nail down the reason for a person to get hit by lightning stands to make or save somewhere north of $100,000 every year, until somebody can duplicate the findings. This may not sound like much, in the corporate sense, but over the course of the stated twenty year period, it adds up to over 2 million dollars, and most corporations, no matter how large, do pay attention to that kind of money, if only because the accountants pitch a fit if they don't.
 
Why ask anything about the "first place" when time itself is a delusion of the sleeping ones? Where does the serpent who eats his own tail begin?

There is a very easy answer to this: the serpent who eats his own tail begins at the head, and ends at the final sphincter, where he poops out himself.

There's a very easy answer to the question you are trying to deflect: humans were always gods. The Sidereals, the Sleepers, and everything else are as much artifacts of mortals' consensus as anything else. Human mythology is always real, and science is nothing more than an extension and transformation of that mythology.

Like I said: in World of Darkness, magic and technology are the same thing--they just have different shapes.
 
There's a very easy answer to the question you are trying to deflect: humans were always gods. The Sidereals, the Sleepers, and everything else are as much artifacts of mortals' consensus as anything else. Human mythology is always real, and science is nothing more than an extension and transformation of that mythology.

I'm not trying to deflect any question. I'm pointing out that asking questions about "the first place" when time itself is a collective delusion indicates that your axioms need to be reconsidered.

One cannot ask about a "first place" if time was not always an applicable concept.

And no, human mythology is not always real. The High Mythic Age now never happened, even though once it did. Dragons now never roamed the earth, and even now the dinosaurs who replaced them are far more bird-like now than they were in 1990.
 
I'm not trying to deflect any question. I'm pointing out that asking questions about "the first place" when time itself is a collective delusion indicates that your axioms need to be reconsidered.

One cannot ask about a "first place" if time was not always an applicable concept.

And no, human mythology is not always real. The High Mythic Age now never happened, even though once it did. Dragons now never roamed the earth, and even now the dinosaurs who replaced them are far more bird-like now than they were in 1990.


My apologies--deflect was the wrong word, and I knew it at the time, but I couldn't think of one that was more accurate. Your original comment was not a red herring, and it was not quite a distraction, but it cannot be answered, either--the sleeping ones, by definition, lie outside of reality, and therefore cannot be counted as real. The question as to whether time is real, or even whether we are real, is neither simple, nor practical--it is a longstanding philosophical inquiry that is no closer to being solved today than it was a thousand years ago.


However...if time is a collective delusion, than, logically, all creatures bound by time must also be equally a delusion. Therefore, any mythologies that creatures bound by time might come up with will all be equally valid, since they were, in fact, created by beings that were never real in the first place. If, for the characters involved, the world is real, than at least some of the mythologies must also be real...and if the world is defined by a consensus of mythologies and belief, than, logically, all mythologies must have been real at some point.

Furthermore, as far as the beings bound by time can determine, time was always applicable...as far as the beings caught in the sleeping ones' delusion of time can determine.
 
I came late to this thread, so if things have been already said, I apologize, but I was too lazy to read 5 pages worth of comments. To the OP:

~A masquerade needs to be kept up for some advantage to its members. This needs to happen more than anything else. Very seldom do people act against their own interests. The masquerade should serve a purpose beyond the fact that mundanes outnumber the special cupcakes by 1000:1 or something.
~A masquerade must be enforceable. How and what is enforced is entirely up to the organization, but explaining magic away as special effects or a widespread hallucinogen would be much more palatable than killing all the witnesses.
~Those who break the masquerade must be punished. The people playing the game do not want to lose the advantage they have.
~There must be relatively easy ways to uphold the masquerade. Vampires only feeding in dark allleys, Wizards attending a Harry Potter convention, and shored leviathans being explained up as washed up sea whale.
~There also need to be harder ways to uphold the masquerade, because given enough time someone will try to break it. Whether this is control of the media or something else, depends on how much power your organization has.

Of course, there are parallels to this in real life. A classic examples would be conspiracy theorists regarding the JFK assassination. The masquerade failed so bad at covering that one up that most people still think the CIA or gov't killed him. As for the masquerade succeeding, I'd say the lochness monster. Most people think its a fairy tale these days, despite it being caught on video at one point.

One other thing to note is that people have believed in magic for a long time, and most kids grow up thinking that some form of magic is real (Santa Claus, etc). How or if the masquerade can turn this into an advantage largely depends on what type of setting your making.
 
Of course, there are parallels to this in real life. A classic examples would be conspiracy theorists regarding the JFK assassination. The masquerade failed so bad at covering that one up that most people still think the CIA or gov't killed him. As for the masquerade succeeding, I'd say the lochness monster. Most people think its a fairy tale these days, despite it being caught on video at one point.
I believe your choice of examples to be very strange, and more important, not something we should discuss here of all places. So, why don't we agree to not do that before it begins, nip in the bud so to speak?
 
Ah, but you have just proven my entire point.

One person getting hit with lightning five times in twenty years is weird. That same person getting hit fifty times in twenty years is not only weird, it's downright creepy, and possibly a reason to avoid issuing homeowners insurance to a person. If our hypothetical person gets hit by lightning five hundred times...well, that sort of stands out, but, again, it's just one person. Weird, yeah. Terrifying, probably. Definitely somebody to listen to when he says "if you're doing X when you get hit by lightning, than you'll probably survive". But otherwise, nothing special.

Ten people who get hit five times in twenty years...okay, that starts to stand out. But it's still well within the bounds of probability, provided you've got a large enough population, or they're doing the right kind of work to earn a living. People who work on electrical lines have this sort of issue--that's one of the reasons they wear all that safety gear. The problem comes when you get five or ten people who get zapped that often in a small farming community. That sort of statistic gets attention...but probably not much, to be honest.

A hundred people...okay, now we're talking potentially significant numbers. They can still disappear into the background, but making sure they do so will take some effort, and if they start to concentrate around certain locations, it gets noticed--even in the real world, certain areas are known to have a lightning strike chance that is much higher than the rest of the country. And if those lightning strikes are being caused by someone, or something, that will start creating oddities--a lightning mage dies, for instance, and the incidence of lightning strikes in the area drops. This is actually past the point where insurance companies sit up and take notice--as I said, certain professions get more lightning strikes than others, and we know this because lightning strikes are common enough that studies have been made, trying to determine why some people get struck more often. For the record, about 300 people get hit by lightning every year, so...yeah, 100 people who each get hit by lightning 5 times over the course of 20 years, out of a total of 3000 strikes, is now going to really stand out. This is the point where you NEED a Masquerade--you will have to come up with reasonable explanations for all 100 of those people, because they represent a disproportionate number of people who get hit by lightning.

And yeah, this was something of a bad example, except that it really isn't. There is an actual database of lightning strikes (it is called the Spatial Hazards and Losses Database, and is maintained by the University of South Carolina, if you're interested), that records location, victim's name, SSN, etc, and all that jazz for every person who gets hit by lightning. It is paid for by--surprise, surprise--the nation's insurance companies, who use it to try to calculate the odds, and therefore the insurance rates, for people having lightning-related accidents. There probably isn't anybody in the country who's gotten struck by lightning that often, but if there is, I promise you, he's been recorded in the database, and the scientists at the University of South Carolina have investigated, and come to a conclusion.

So...yeah. One in a million, normal humans can and likely will explain away, no problem. There are 300 million people in this country, roughly , so the scale works. Beyond that...you can't escape the statistics, my friend. There is money involved in this crap, and we're not talking small amounts of money, either--whomever can nail down the reason for a person to get hit by lightning stands to make or save somewhere north of $100,000 every year, until somebody can duplicate the findings. This may not sound like much, in the corporate sense, but over the course of the stated twenty year period, it adds up to over 2 million dollars, and most corporations, no matter how large, do pay attention to that kind of money, if only because the accountants pitch a fit if they don't.
But why would a wizard hit anyone with lightening 5 times in 20 years, you'd think they'd give it up after their victim survived the first two. :V

More seriously, if magic is subtle or particularly rare it would never come to anyone's attention. And if it did the people upholding the masquerade would just lie to the scientists and give them a mundane explaination. Which would be believed over the explaination "a wizard did it".
 
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The strongest argument against the masquerade is a simple one: if it exist, and if it alters the world, sufficiently profound understanding of reality will discover the alterations

That's the thing about altering things, you kinda have to alter things for it to happen.

The stronges argument towards the masquerade is that the understanding of reality is not yet sufficiently profound to recognize the patterns, but with the advance of big data, neural networks and superintelligences that argument is less powerful each day.

We are creating things smart enough to spot things we never would.

That's why I find the second argument towards the masquerade to be a superintelligence as well, capable of fooling with smart recognition of the effects of magic. Because at the end of the day, the masquerade must be a liar smart enough to trick our collective butts.
 
But why would a wizard hit anyone with lightening 5 times in 20 years, you'd think they'd give it up after their victim survived the first two. :V

More seriously, if magic is subtle or particularly rare it would never come to anyone's attention. And if it did the people upholding the masquerade would just lie to the scientists and give them a mundane explaination. Which would be believed over the explaination "a wizard did it".

Easy--several wizards hit the same guy. Maybe he works as a repo agent, or something, and had to repossess their cars. Who knows? The explanations are as boundless as the imagination of the players. The key factor, however, is that we are entering an age in which any kind of Masquerade, or any kind of really serious conspiracy, is becoming increasingly difficult, if not impossible, to maintain. Right now, if you are willing to stick to the shadows, and your actions are sufficiently limited, you can sort of do it...maybe...ish, anyway. You'd probably get something like what is portrayed in Larry Correia's Monster Hunter International series--a world where the Masquerade is so threadbare that it only barely exists, and the only reason it survives is because everybody who witnesses a breach gets pulled into maintaining it. But you could, just barely, maintain it, if you were limited enough. Fast forward ten or twenty years, however, and that ability will start to vanish. People are becoming too interconnected, too alert, too aware.

You can see traces of this already in modern life: the email scandals that plagued Hilary Clinton would not have even registered ten years ago, because too many people would not have understood that what she was accused of could be dangerous. Likewise with the Trump connection with Russia: ten years ago, we would not have had the ability to dig deep enough to uncover a connection that remote. We expect that our leaders will tell us the truth, and we always have--but only recently have we begun to have the ability to dig deeply enough to find out for certain whether or not they are. The irony of this is that it is entirely possible that we will soon find that many political leaders are not idealistic and naive enough to survive in the cut-throat, dog-eat-dog world of modern democratic politics. It is entirely possible that, without an unthinking assumption that one's actions will be discovered, political leaders will not be able to function effectively in the information age.

And won't that make for an interesting world?
 
@Bird_Posion

The point was there are ways people in power try to cover things up with various levels of success and it is dependent upon the tools available too them. How the masquerade covers up mishaps is important to world building and the cited examples show two very different outcomes from the real world, whether you believe in them or not.
 
@Bird_Posion

The point was there are ways people in power try to cover things up with various levels of success and it is dependent upon the tools available too them. How the masquerade covers up mishaps is important to world building and the cited examples show two very different outcomes from the real world, whether you believe in them or not.


Unfortunately, while those ways do work (sometimes), they are becoming increasingly difficult to pull off, especially because, in any scenario, you WILL have idiots who either don't care about the masquerade, or who think that breaking it completely will somehow benefit them. In short, if you are going to use a masquerade for your story, you will have to cover not only how it works, but why it works, and, most importantly of all, why everybody goes along with it.

Why does Dracula--who can easily take any two humans alive--hide in his coffin, and try to conceal his presence? Why don't werewolves go hunting in suburban streets? Why don't wizards simply turn intruders into newts, and then flush them down the toilets? Why don't...well, you get the idea.

Usually, creating a world where there is a strong masquerade is something that will force the author to do more work when setting up the premise, not less. Although the masquerade has become a convenient trope, and is a useful device to create a sort of tension for characters that otherwise would be getting close to being all-powerful, it comes with a price, and that price is that you'll have to explain to people in the Information Age how all this information can be so restricted that nobody notices its absence. While doing this can provide an important device to allow authors to help create a deeper sense of reader immersion--a sense that this is the same world we live in, but simply digging a bit deeper, below the surface--it will have to be treated increasingly carefully as time marches on, and will mark a work as something that can become outdated by the passing of time to a greater and greater extent as information technology progresses.

What the original post was asking is simply this: at what point does having a masquerade begin to actually detract from the reader's ability to immerse themselves in the story? At what point does the masquerade cease to become a convenient explanation for why the reader doesn't see this in their own life, and start to become something that has to actively be explained, and supported by narrative events? At what point does the author have to start doing serious research into how such a masquerade would be maintained, and start trying to make sure that their work matches up with the everyday experiences of the reader? Where, in other worlds, does reality end, and fantasy begin?

And, at the end of the day, what is the difference between the two?

I've read stories where the masquerade was used as an explanation without any kind of restraint or support, and the stories were basically so much garbage. Fun garbage, in some cases, but still garbage. In places where it is done well, it helps to provide a source of tension and constraint on characters that otherwise would have none.

Things you may want to look at, if you wish to use a masquerade in your own stories:

1. Why is the masquerade enforced, and by whom?
If it is enforced by the supernatural world, or by simple laws of the universe, this creates one type of constraint...but it might be interesting to posit that the masquerade is enforced by the humans. How would that affect the pacing, the drama, or the itensity of the story? How would you convey that a massively ancient and powerful vampire/wizard/werewolf/whatever has good reason to be terrified of the G-Men in the sharp suits and the sunglasses?

2. Why is the masquerade necessary?
One of the primary failings of the Twilight novels is that the need for the vampires' masquerade is never really explained. This is something that should be addressed very, very early in the series--early in the first book, in fact--but is not. By contrast, the Dresdenverse does address the need for the Masquerade, repeatedly mentioning, and occasionally demonstrating, that the human mortals are the real power in that world. If a Chicago gangster can wield as much influence and raw power as John Marcone, think what would happen if an actual government got involved...a point which the author makes on several occasions.

3. To what lengths will the enforcers go to make sure the masquerade remains unbroken?
If the enforcers will stoop to murder, mayhem, and burning down elementary schools to enforce the masquerade, you've got an ideal villain--perhaps not for this story, but certainly for the future. At the very least, you've got the Doom of Damocles hanging over all the characters, especially if the bad guys seem to be able to break the masquerade at will, but your main characters get jumped on for even coming close to skirting the boundaries of the masquerade. On the other hand, if breaches are handled more like how ordinary muggle crimes are handled, you've got another scenario. Think about this carefully--Harry Potter managed to work very well, despite there being few, if any, serious repercussions for breaking the masquerade.


4. What pressures are there against the masquerade, and from what direction do they come?
The masquerade is only important as long as there is pressure against it--otherwise, you do not need to, and should not bother mentioning it. But which direction the pressures come from will determine how your characters/creatures view themselves in relation to ordinary humans...and will determine how your portrayal of supernatural government is understood by your readers. If the masquerade is to be a major part of your story, this will need to be something you consider carefully.

5. What kind of economic impacts does this have on those who are being hidden by the masquerade?
One of the biggest single factors that most authors miss is the simple fact that, for most people who are caught in the cracks of society, money is...well...hard to come by. And anybody who is covered by the masquerade is, almost by definition, caught in society's cracks...or, at the very least, suffers from a major handicap when competing in our world. Harry Potter, again, deals with this by making the wizards have their own, parallel world, with its own quite powerful economy, and has the main characters operate primarily within that world. In most World of Darkness games I've seen, the implication conveyed is that money, and other resources, are seriously difficult to come by, especially if you take the time to try to develop your otherworldly abilities. The obvious solution--use your supernatural abilities to try to overcome other lacks--runs into the masquerade. Usually, another means will have to be found. You can sort of slide over this, mind you--but if you do, you will have to go into more detail elsewhere, so this may not be something you wish to do. Plus, the idea of a vampire trying to handle the stresses of a nine to five (at night) job is just...well...not something most people think about.
 
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