How strong would a Masquerade have to be to survive in the modern world?

I see people continue to not realize how bullshit Humanity's detecting capabilities are. If magic is sufficiently bullshit to bypass that, of ban why do you need masquerade? And why didn't the universe implode due to paradoxes popping all around the place? Like, trying to imagine something that follows all of the rules gets the system, that feels so contrived and SOD breaking.
 
Yes, magic can absolutely do all this. Your point?

mage the ascension has tech magic spirits and magic that can affect the bloody internet. DnD has it to. Technology is a part of reality not its own special snowflake. It can be subverted.

And depending on the setting, reality can be whatever from running on narrative physics to reality is what I say it hence science doesn't work. Full stop.

Anime campione has a character that can if they want to shut down all tech above medieval iirc around them if they wished to.

Again, you act as if the scientists will even know about the events rather then focus on their own work cause the event is not known by anyone. Freak weather occurances? el nino, low pressure system, mundane explanations are endless.

My point is that if magic can, there's no point to the Masquerade at all.

And while tech can be subverted, as I mentioned, you currently need literally atomic level precision to do so without ruining it permanently, as in physically destroying the equipment. Conceptual forces can pull it off without violating massive amounts of sense, but if you are using conceptual forces, those forces likely are out of date on a bunch of deep bullshit physics. And you have to know the concept to be able to properly make use of it, so you aren't dealing with wizards anymore, they're all physics-warping mad scientists because science holds the answers to figuring out how concepts relate and interact. So what if normal physics doesn't apply, conceptual magic always has rules of interaction of concepts to study and figure out in a fashion that leads to science being applicable.

And so what if an anime has it? Not all magic systems are the same, some are incapable of certain things. And "shutting down" isn't that simple. It has to be conceptual in nature, or else the magic is able to fuck with subatomic forces pretty freely in a controllable fashion and thus there is no point to having a masquerade because the magic users are walking Weapons of Mass Destruction. That's how detailed our tech is now. To disable without permanent damage requires interfering with individual electrons or atoms, if not even smaller scale.

And when it comes to mundane explanations, none of them will fit perfectly. If a pattern is seen, scientists will work to figure out that pattern's cause as much as physically possible. It's there job. They'll come up with a perfectly mundane model that predicts the results of the magic they can't perceive. Actual freak weather occurrences will be picked up on, noticed by scientific institutions that have the single job, as in their own work is figuring this shit out, of figuring out how weather works and an explanation will be searched for. Weather is not isolated, a single freak weather occurrence will create detectable anomalies that will ripple outwards. Which screws with weather forecasts, the single most data-intensive project humanity has ever created, because it involves scanning the entire fucking world's humidity, temperature, air pressure, winds and geography and putting all of that data into simulations that literally predict the future with it.
 
Yes, magic can absolutely do all this. Your point?

mage the ascension has tech magic spirits and magic that can affect the bloody internet. DnD has it to. Technology is a part of reality not its own special snowflake. It can be subverted.

And depending on the setting, reality can be whatever from running on narrative physics to reality is what I say it hence science doesn't work. Full stop.

Anime campione has a character that can if they want to shut down all tech above medieval iirc around them if they wished to.

Again, you act as if the scientists will even know about the events rather then focus on their own work cause the event is not known by anyone. Freak weather occurances? el nino, low pressure system, mundane explanations are endless.


Okay, just to throw a few more monkey wrenches into the works:

First of all, I will point out that, in most of the universes or systems that I've seen, technology is its own special snowflake, and exists in a manner that is distinct and separate from magic. Mage the Ascension is one of the few exceptions I've ever seen to this rule, because in that particular setting, magic and technology are one and the same. But in almost every other setting I've seen, technology is something that is based upon a totally different set of principles, and a different paradigm, from magic.

Secondly, mathematics and technology are two totally separate entities. Just because technology can be fooled by a spell, doesn't mean that math can...which means that, sooner or later, you still run into the same problem. Unless magic exists as its own totally independent universe, ala Harry Potter, you start running into the problem that non-magical people can and will get caught in it...and that means that sooner or later, you run into those good old statistical anomalies. Even changing records won't help with this, not unless you can slightly change every record across the planet. Sooner or later, you run into the bean conundrum all over again, because the numbers don't add up, and there is no scientific explanation as to why. In order for the Masquerade to work, magical beings would have to be very rare, very widely scattered, fully aware of each other, in constant contact, and their effects would have to be so subtle and minor that they disappeared into the admittedly vast amount of stuff that we don't know about yet.

Even then, the pressures we're talking about, from the outside, with scientists just trying to explain anomalies that, according to what they know, can't exist, but still do? Those are just the passive pressures on the Masquerade, which would be considerable. Active pressures, from young idiots who think that their magic makes them special? Whole different ball game. In a world where magic can directly interact with what humans consider to be the real world, all it would take would be one mistake made at the wrong time to leave a muggle very much convinced that that guy with the beard and the stick just threw a fireball at somebody else. Maybe the guy's drunk, maybe he's higher than a kite, maybe he's just not too sure of his grip on reality, or maybe he just doesn't know enough to be able to come up with a convincing explanation for why what he saw is possible without magic. None of that matters. What matters is that the guy now believes that magic is possible, and when he looks around, he realizes that magic is a better explanation for other things he's seen. Even if he hasn't seen anythign else in his life that is magical, this belief will still persist, and the witness will still start attributing other things to magic, simply because he doesn't understand them.

The purpose of the Masquerade is to find these witnesses, and shut them up, to track down the young idiots who are flaunting their powers, and get them to behave, to...well, you get the idea. In short, the Masquerade is something to be concerned with, to maintain, if and only if the people around you are capable of grasping that magic exists. If there is no possible evidence that something unnatural happened, if scientists can't even tell that something is off, than there is no Masquerade...and, sooner or later, there is no magic, either.

And, again, I will remind you that scientists have studied some really, really, really stupid crap over the years. The psychic powers of rats are only the beginning. If you want more examples, check out this article: Dumb science.

Scientists will study darned near anything, if they can get the funding, for the simple reason that, sometimes, dumb science turns out to not be dumb (there's an example of that on item 8 on the list I linked, by the way). So...yeah. Mundane explanations or not, sooner or later, somebody would take a long, hard look at whether or not magic existed, just because what the hell, maybe it does. And, unless you had people actively blocking such research, that scientist would eventually start digging out evidence that only magic would logically explain, for the simple reason that his or her funding would depend on finding some kind of results. My brother works in the science industry, and he tells me that this is exactly how it works. Even a lack of evidence that there is anything to research will trigger additional research, because such a result is so damned unusual that it counts as a weird anomaly in and of itself. It's sort of like meeting a truly honest politician, or riding a unicorn--it's so weird that you just have to stop, and say WTF?

All of this is really sort of beside the point, however. Something like the Masquerade is not required for a good urban fantasy--many authors, shows, and other sources portray quite effective urban fantasies in worlds where magic is openly acknowledged to exist. Hellboy effectively becomes a world like this, as does the Underworld series. Most comic book series run on something like this, as does the Ghostbusters series, and the Sookie Stackhouse mysteries. Kim Harrison's works seem to run on this, as do at least some of the works of Patricia Briggs. There are many others that do the same thing. If your thing to induce tension is to try to maintain the Masquerade, cool. But be aware that you only get to fiat so many aspects of the world you're creating, before the audience starts demanding plausible explanations. If you want them to accept the existence of the Masquerade, you'll need to pay a great deal more attention to other aspects of the universe.
 
I see people continue to not realize how bullshit Humanity's detecting capabilities are. If magic is sufficiently bullshit to bypass that, of ban why do you need masquerade? And why didn't the universe implode due to paradoxes popping all around the place? Like, trying to imagine something that follows all of the rules gets the system, that feels so contrived and SOD breaking.
And yet for all the so called HFY detection abilities, people disappear all the bleeding time :rolleyes:.

And the need for masquerade can be varied. IIRC, for Mage the Awakening. The Exarchs don't want anyone to know about magic cause fuck you plebians. Magic belong to us and you are slaves.

And you may as well ask why certain entities in Dresdenverse like Archangels or was it plain angels who are said to be able to bust galaxies bother with a masquerade?
 
And yet for all the so called HFY detection abilities, people disappear all the bleeding time :rolleyes:.
Those people aren't watched with the peak bullshit. And what we have will find weather anomalies and detect anything that causes a localized earthquake.

And you may as well ask why certain entities in Dresdenverse like Archangels or was it plain angels who are said to be able to bust galaxies bother with a masquerade?
In the Dredsenverse, Angels don't have free will. A lot of the higher-level things in the Dredsenverse don't have free will or their power is dependent on following half-conceptual laws.
 
And if the government is made to cover it up and only crazy people who write about chemtrails and roswell aliens write about it?
Unless the government is subject to blatant mind control, then they'd be one of the most interested in breaking the Masquerade. Because magic is useful. It bypasses a lot of shit.
 
Secondly, mathematics and technology are two totally separate entities.

Semantic quibble time! Math has an 'is a' relationship to technology. So does language. So do martial arts.
Sorry, this is one of my pet peeves.

Okay, just to throw a few more monkey wrenches into the works:

First of all, I will point out that, in most of the universes or systems that I've seen, technology is its own special snowflake, and exists in a manner that is distinct and separate from magic. Mage the Ascension is one of the few exceptions I've ever seen to this rule, because in that particular setting, magic and technology are one and the same. But in almost every other setting I've seen, technology is something that is based upon a totally different set of principles, and a different paradigm, from magic.

Secondly, mathematics and technology are two totally separate entities. Just because technology can be fooled by a spell, doesn't mean that math can...which means that, sooner or later, you still run into the same problem. Unless magic exists as its own totally independent universe, ala Harry Potter, you start running into the problem that non-magical people can and will get caught in it...and that means that sooner or later, you run into those good old statistical anomalies. Even changing records won't help with this, not unless you can slightly change every record across the planet. Sooner or later, you run into the bean conundrum all over again, because the numbers don't add up, and there is no scientific explanation as to why. In order for the Masquerade to work, magical beings would have to be very rare, very widely scattered, fully aware of each other, in constant contact, and their effects would have to be so subtle and minor that they disappeared into the admittedly vast amount of stuff that we don't know about yet.

Even then, the pressures we're talking about, from the outside, with scientists just trying to explain anomalies that, according to what they know, can't exist, but still do? Those are just the passive pressures on the Masquerade, which would be considerable. Active pressures, from young idiots who think that their magic makes them special? Whole different ball game. In a world where magic can directly interact with what humans consider to be the real world, all it would take would be one mistake made at the wrong time to leave a muggle very much convinced that that guy with the beard and the stick just threw a fireball at somebody else. Maybe the guy's drunk, maybe he's higher than a kite, maybe he's just not too sure of his grip on reality, or maybe he just doesn't know enough to be able to come up with a convincing explanation for why what he saw is possible without magic. None of that matters. What matters is that the guy now believes that magic is possible, and when he looks around, he realizes that magic is a better explanation for other things he's seen. Even if he hasn't seen anythign else in his life that is magical, this belief will still persist, and the witness will still start attributing other things to magic, simply because he doesn't understand them.

The purpose of the Masquerade is to find these witnesses, and shut them up, to track down the young idiots who are flaunting their powers, and get them to behave, to...well, you get the idea. In short, the Masquerade is something to be concerned with, to maintain, if and only if the people around you are capable of grasping that magic exists. If there is no possible evidence that something unnatural happened, if scientists can't even tell that something is off, than there is no Masquerade...and, sooner or later, there is no magic, either.

And, again, I will remind you that scientists have studied some really, really, really stupid crap over the years. The psychic powers of rats are only the beginning. If you want more examples, check out this article: Dumb science.

Scientists will study darned near anything, if they can get the funding, for the simple reason that, sometimes, dumb science turns out to not be dumb (there's an example of that on item 8 on the list I linked, by the way). So...yeah. Mundane explanations or not, sooner or later, somebody would take a long, hard look at whether or not magic existed, just because what the hell, maybe it does. And, unless you had people actively blocking such research, that scientist would eventually start digging out evidence that only magic would logically explain, for the simple reason that his or her funding would depend on finding some kind of results. My brother works in the science industry, and he tells me that this is exactly how it works. Even a lack of evidence that there is anything to research will trigger additional research, because such a result is so damned unusual that it counts as a weird anomaly in and of itself. It's sort of like meeting a truly honest politician, or riding a unicorn--it's so weird that you just have to stop, and say WTF?

All of this is really sort of beside the point, however. Something like the Masquerade is not required for a good urban fantasy--many authors, shows, and other sources portray quite effective urban fantasies in worlds where magic is openly acknowledged to exist. Hellboy effectively becomes a world like this, as does the Underworld series. Most comic book series run on something like this, as does the Ghostbusters series, and the Sookie Stackhouse mysteries. Kim Harrison's works seem to run on this, as do at least some of the works of Patricia Briggs. There are many others that do the same thing. If your thing to induce tension is to try to maintain the Masquerade, cool. But be aware that you only get to fiat so many aspects of the world you're creating, before the audience starts demanding plausible explanations. If you want them to accept the existence of the Masquerade, you'll need to pay a great deal more attention to other aspects of the universe.

The only real way I can see a passive Masquerade working is if the act of trying to publicise your findings rendered them non-reproducible.
In essence, an inverse of 'clap your hands if you believe'. Acceptance of magic beyond a certain threshold suppresses it.
Example: what if Orgone actually exists, and Reiche's early claimed results actually worked perfectly, but the fact that he publicized them made them stop working.
 
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Blackmail/bribe those at the top and make sure anyone else who gets close to the truth is discredited.
Bribes are not enough to keep the kind of benefit magic has under wraps. And blackmail only works on people who have dirty secrets and care about keeping them secret.

Also, bribes require money. Massive amounts of money. Money that can be tracked. Money that has to come from somewhere. If it's magical favors, then there's the rather large chance of people getting recordings. Fully internally consistent recordings with no signs of editing at all.
 
The only real way I can see a passive Masquerade working is if the act of trying to publicise your findings rendered them non-reproducible.
In essence, an inverse of 'clap your hands if you believe'. Acceptance of magic beyond a certain threshold suppresses it.
Or full blown reality warping and clean up.

Mage the Awakening has mages who can warp reality retroactively so that something never happened at all.

Mage the ascension has the Technocracy who has kill teams and power over both the government and academia to make sure people don't believe. Doesn't work 100% though.
 
Or full blown reality warping and clean up.

Mage the Awakening has mages who can warp reality retroactively so that something never happened at all.

Mage the ascension has the Technocracy who has kill teams and [power over both the government an academia to make sure people don't believe. Doesn't work 100% though.

Passive Masquerade. That is, a Masquerade with no intelligence or decision making capabilities behind it.
I am aware that this wouldn't actually be a Masquerade, but the word conveys the meaning I'm going for in context.

In such a universe, the functional definition of 'supernatural' would be 'that which ceases to exist when you start believing in it'
 
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I see people continue to not realize how bullshit Humanity's detecting capabilities are. If magic is sufficiently bullshit to bypass that, of ban why do you need masquerade? And why didn't the universe implode due to paradoxes popping all around the place? Like, trying to imagine something that follows all of the rules gets the system, that feels so contrived and SOD breaking.
Welcome to lovecraftian literature. Where the masquerade is a law of nature, and that law says "humans can't".

I mean, you can talk about our ability to see apples and infer universal laws of motion, or see dust and deduce statistics, but if the very fabric of reality is explicitly made to avoid such happenstances, what are you going to do about it? By definition, you can't.
 
Welcome to lovecraftian literature. Where the masquerade is a law of nature, and that law says "humans can't".

I mean, you can talk about our ability to see apples and infer universal laws of motion, or see dust and deduce statistics, but if the very fabric of reality is explicitly made to avoid such happenstances, what are you going to do about it? By definition, you can't.
True facts, rea actual physicists theorize that a overwhelming majority of the universe is almost completely inobservable, it only creates gravitational effects we can't otherwise explain.

As to the people who are saying "but my statistics". People brush some really weird shit off like the guy who was struck by lightening 5 times over 20ish years. We go damn that's weird and then nothing comes of it. Rain of blood, frogs or fish. Science says "Tornados maybe?".
 
Science says "Tornados maybe?".
Science tries to figure it out. And if it finds magic, it will come up with the rules for it. Even if it has to be made into a third branch of physics to get started, alongside general physics and quantum physics.

Seriouly, absolutely and entirely separate rules from generally accepted physics isn't something new. Quantum physics kinda blatantly disproved a bunch of stuff and we still haven't even really started merging it with the more common general physics that are taught pre-college. Scientists are able to suck it up and throw all previous science out the window if needed and declare something a separate branch of physics if needed. We did this for quantum physics, we can do it for magic.

And it is, as far as anyone can tell, impossible for something to be truely incomprehensible for humans. Our minds are just too adaptive. We invent concepts with no physical analogue to simplify processes. Decimal places? No physically existing analogue, they're shorthand for fractions to simplify the math. Math, itself, doesn't actually exist and the physical analogues are a matter of analogy. It has been mathematically proven that there are things that math will prove which are wrong, and that there will be things which are true which math cannot prove. Only this proof hinges on keeping to a single system of math. Create exceptions, alter the mathematical system, the gaps change. And we can probably create a different mathematical system to cover gaps when found.

The real restriction is in perception and active measures preventing discovery of it, some of which can look passive, but are really "fields" preventing discovery by doing things to curb it. Such as memory or perception filters blocking recognition. And fields can be blocked, distorted or interrupted. Sure, there can be side effects, but no field or structure is truely impossible to change.

The sorts of things needed for it to work as a law of "physics" are fundamentally incompatible with known physics. Neuroscience and psychology would not be as useful as they are if there were things in the background which contradicted them. And one of the foundations of psychology is that anything in the human mind can change without harm being a certainty.

Old World of Darkness solves this by having science rise from magic, so magic trumps science. However, it also uses "clap your hands if you believe" and retroactive removal of events as parts of magic, so it very much relies on blatant, massive plot devices to work, which very much interrupt the idea of the Masqurade needing a lot of cover ups.
 
Science tries to figure it out. And if it finds magic, it will come up with the rules for it. Even if it has to be made into a third branch of physics to get started, alongside general physics and quantum physics.

Seriouly, absolutely and entirely separate rules from generally accepted physics isn't something new. Quantum physics kinda blatantly disproved a bunch of stuff and we still haven't even really started merging it with the more common general physics that are taught pre-college. Scientists are able to suck it up and throw all previous science out the window if needed and declare something a separate branch of physics if needed. We did this for quantum physics, we can do it for magic.

And it is, as far as anyone can tell, impossible for something to be truely incomprehensible for humans. Our minds are just too adaptive. We invent concepts with no physical analogue to simplify processes. Decimal places? No physically existing analogue, they're shorthand for fractions to simplify the math. Math, itself, doesn't actually exist and the physical analogues are a matter of analogy. It has been mathematically proven that there are things that math will prove which are wrong, and that there will be things which are true which math cannot prove. Only this proof hinges on keeping to a single system of math. Create exceptions, alter the mathematical system, the gaps change. And we can probably create a different mathematical system to cover gaps when found.

The real restriction is in perception and active measures preventing discovery of it, some of which can look passive, but are really "fields" preventing discovery by doing things to curb it. Such as memory or perception filters blocking recognition. And fields can be blocked, distorted or interrupted. Sure, there can be side effects, but no field or structure is truely impossible to change.

The sorts of things needed for it to work as a law of "physics" are fundamentally incompatible with known physics. Neuroscience and psychology would not be as useful as they are if there were things in the background which contradicted them. And one of the foundations of psychology is that anything in the human mind can change without harm being a certainty.

Old World of Darkness solves this by having science rise from magic, so magic trumps science. However, it also uses "clap your hands if you believe" and retroactive removal of events as parts of magic, so it very much relies on blatant, massive plot devices to work, which very much interrupt the idea of the Masqurade needing a lot of cover ups.
Look I appreciate your faith in observable evidence, but science really does function on the concept that if something isn't replicable it functionally doesn't exist.

And if any given magical effect proves to be rare enough it will likely simply be written off as mere coincidence. The fact that science strives to explain the inexplicable doesn't mean they'll come to the correct conclusions.
 
Science is, at its core of cores, based on a simple principle, a most trivial thing that nobody should doubt when working on it.

Science assumes the universe is consistent, and everything else hinges on that axiom.

Make an universe where that's not so, and you can send all the science down the drain, just like that.
 
Science is, at its core of cores, based on a simple principle, a most trivial thing that nobody should doubt when working on it.

Science assumes the universe is consistent, and everything else hinges on that axiom.

Make an universe where that's not so, and you can send all the science down the drain, just like that.
Actually, the core of science is that everything runs on coherent rules. It has no inherent problems with there being exceptions and separations, look at the well-accepted divide between quantum mechanics and general mechanics. We have yet to run into anything that makes it an active problem.

If magic runs on a set of rules that override normal physics, scientists will eventually, probably quickly because it's magic, figure this out and then work with it, ignoring what is provably overridden by magic in their work to uncover the rules of magic. Which will, for a while, consist of figuring out how to get started.
 
Actually, the core of science is that everything runs on coherent rules. It has no inherent problems with there being exceptions and separations, look at the well-accepted divide between quantum mechanics and general mechanics. We have yet to run into anything that makes it an active problem.

If magic runs on a set of rules that override normal physics, scientists will eventually, probably quickly because it's magic, figure this out and then work with it, ignoring what is provably overridden by magic in their work to uncover the rules of magic. Which will, for a while, consist of figuring out how to get started.
Yeah but that only works if magic has a high enough signal to noise ratio to not be written off as a data artifact or a fluke.

Edit: Or as in the case of the placebo effect we take the noise and just accept it as a part of nature with no explanations available.
 
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Yeah but that only works if magic has a high enough signal to noise ratio to not be written off as a data artifact or a fluke.

Edit: Or as in the case of the placebo effect we take the noise and just accept it as a part of nature with no explanations available.
Science will investigate any notable noise to reduce it. Given enough time, and people working to minimize all noise in all fields, the magic gets uncovered by the thousands of people who's jobs are to dig into every detail for fixing errors in the data. Like I mentioned, weather forecasts use literal future-predicting simulations to predict the weather. Improving accuracy and distance of forecasts is top priority for a lot of people with a lot of money. So any human-notable change in weather at all is instantly detected by a major industry dedicated to predicting the future.

And actual scientists tend to be very bad at taking things for granted or ignoring them. The 80s, for example, had a massive amount of questioning basic things. Oddly enough, even harsher questioning of things taken for granted happened in the 1910s due to quantum physics being discovered, leading to scientists basically throwing all previous theories out the window and starting over from scratch in most fields.
 
Passive Masquerade. That is, a Masquerade with no intelligence or decision making capabilities behind it.
I am aware that this wouldn't actually be a Masquerade, but the word conveys the meaning I'm going for in context.

In such a universe, the functional definition of 'supernatural' would be 'that which ceases to exist when you start believing in it'
A passive masquerade makes no sense as there is no masquerade at all just like you said.


Old World of Darkness solves this by having science rise from magic, so magic trumps science. However, it also uses "clap your hands if you believe" and retroactive removal of events as parts of magic, so it very much relies on blatant, massive plot devices to work, which very much interrupt the idea of the Masqurade needing a lot of cover ups.
Magic in Old World of Darkness for mages at any rate is less traditional magic and more reality warping. Which has these kind of situations like the below popup:

Czar Vargo is a walking Crowning Moment of Awesome. His greatest, however, is undoubtedly when he managed to conquer the entire worldnote Okay, for about ten minutes without taking a single life. In the wake of WW1, he moved his zeppelins over the world and announced he was now in-charge by "Right of Superior Knowledge." The Technocracy didn't manage to defeat him, he voluntarily retreated when he realized he'd have to kill them in order to stop them.
  • Technically that didn't happen anymore, but not because of a retcon. It's because history was rewritten by paradox so Vargo was never born. But it's still awesome, because Czar Vargo violated the consensus so hard that the timeline had to be rewritten to combat it. Normal mages would just get injured or set upon by monsters or shuffled out of reality for their vulgar effects: Czar Vargo got himself unmade. Any Taftani watching would weep manly tears in respect.

And

  • EVERYONE gets one at the end of the first Ascension scenario, after Voormas is defeated. Traditionals return hope and magic to the world. Technocrats go to a land of endless, perfect order. Marauders each go to their own personal reality that lives or dies on its own merits. Even the friggin' Nephandi (who, shockingly, helped the Traditions, Technocrats and Marauders in the fight) are consigned to the 'hells of their dreams', to be tortured for all eternity in the way suited most perfectly for them, what they always wanted. In a game where philosophical differences mean the difference between life and death, it's nice to see everyone, even the Nephandi, get the perfect world that they always wanted and fought for.

Hence why science has no real weight in Mage the Ascension.
 
No, actually as much as I usually disagreee with him @Morphic Tide has a point here; science has plenty of weight in Mage: The Ascension, the belief in repeatability and observability means that magic has rules, you can in fact scientifically observe the consensus. The Sons of Ether do it, and so do the Order of Hermes; you can observe that reality shifts, depending on the consensus, you can observe that paradox effects happen and you can reach a level where paradigm no longer weighs you down. You can observe that souls reincarnate, you can observe that Nephandi remain Nephandi even through different incarnations and you can extrapolate from previous observations that magic and science are like saying "blue and blue".

Saying that science holds no real weight is silly, science in the sense of observation holds plenty of weight, but everyone have been making the wrong observations because mages have a confirmation bias to dwarf Mount Everest. I disagree that human minds are as adaptable as @Morphic Tide says, but saying that they can't discover consensus reality, when the Order of Hermes did in fact, discover consensus reality in canon no less, is silly.
 
No, actually as much as I usually disagreee with him @Morphic Tide has a point here; science has plenty of weight in Mage: The Ascension, the belief in repeatability and observability means that magic has rules, you can in fact scientifically observe the consensus. The Sons of Ether do it, and so do the Order of Hermes; you can observe that reality shifts, depending on the consensus, you can observe that paradox effects happen and you can reach a level where paradigm no longer weighs you down. You can observe that souls reincarnate, you can observe that Nephandi remain Nephandi even through different incarnations and you can extrapolate from previous observations that magic and science are like saying "blue and blue".

Saying that science holds no real weight is silly, science in the sense of observation holds plenty of weight, but everyone have been making the wrong observations because mages have a confirmation bias to dwarf Mount Everest. I disagree that human minds are as adaptable as @Morphic Tide says, but saying that they can't discover consensus reality, when the Order of Hermes did in fact, discover consensus reality in canon no less, is silly.
I choose the wrong words but still Those rules only exist cause humans want them like that. There are mentions of how the Sun once orbited the Earth but then consensus was changed to that the Sun was orbited.

Palp on SB said it best
The Horizon is the result of the omnipotent gestalt entity that is humanity using its power to enforce its will, as far as I know other settings don't tend to have anything like that. And you misunderstand, it is not an external power given to humanity as reality is soft and malleable, reality BECOMES soft and malleable due to the power of will. When you are omnipotent reality is in a very real way a transitory thing, an illusion and temporary lie. It is something without true substance and relevance.
 
Okay for the "Masquerade" to happen there are 2 vastly different things to consider. How much does the normal and magial world interact with one another and what kind of magic do you have at your disposal.


As a couple of people said, if there's too much activity you need to hide, you need a logistics system so ridiculously big to hide said activities you imagined that foudning your own country and bootstrapping yourself to be able to use MAD would be a good idea.

The second thing is the type of magic you can use. Contextual, Conceptual or rapidly developing 'magic' is really the only way you can keep up with modern information systems. Primarily because there's so much to do that any logistics capable of stopping it will create the above problem
 
There are mentions of how the Sun once orbited the Earth but then consensus was changed to that the Sun was orbited.
...that was a thing proven by using measurements that showed it to be true... If the Sun did orbit the Earth, then those measurements would have shown that the sun did, in fact, orbit the Earth.

Well, actually the measurements showed that the other planets were orbiting the sun and the guy who took them said "why not Earth?" But the point still stands that if the once-commonly-accepted geocentric model of the universe was actually true, then the measurements that disproved it would have supported it instead.
 
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