House of the Dragon premiering August 21

So apparently the finale has leaked and there are controversial 'changes' (or additions / new interpertations) so to speak, particularly

re: Daemon. Probably the source of Hess being surprised he's so popular.

and (major spoiler for the climax of the episode)

the way Lucerys dies - Aemond did not intend it - Arrax and Vhagar disobey them both

I'm very struck by the idea that the dragons essentially started the war themselves. It fits very well with some of the subtext in the ASOIAF books where Daenaerys' dragons are frequently used to suggest her subconscious desires and impulses.
 
Last edited:
The show is good enough to make me forgive the ocasional stupid scene

But it definetively has it's dumb moments.
 
So on the topic of the big twist, there's actually a lot of room in Fire and Blood for it:

First off, we're told repeatedly that the Targaryens don't have perfect control over their dragons, and that the Targaryens' control may actually be weaker than the Old Valyrians because they rely on whips and chains rather than spells and dragonbinding horns. We're also told repeatedly that a dragon inherits their rider's loves and hates, and Vhagar absolutely sensed that Aemond hated Luke and wanted him dead, even if Luke didn't give the order. Finally, we're informed repeatedly that dragons have no flight or fight response, only fight; they always attack when threatened.

As for the battle, there are no direct eyewitnesses to the fight over Storm's End. All we're told is that men saw a gout of flame, and then a glimpse of Vhagar and Arrax grappling, backlit by a bolt lightning. It's perfectly logical that something like this could have gone down and everyone assumed Aemond killed Luke intentionally, which on some level he did.

So yeah, I actually like the change a lot.
 
I honestly think we'll have to chalk up the Rhaenys killing the smallfolk up as an show mistake, unless they retcon in an explanation/consequence in later seasons. It was clearly designed as a Cool moment and they didn't think about as much as they should have.

I don't think it's a show mistake at all and I'm confused as to how you could view it as one. It's clearly demonstrative of Rhaenys (and the rest of the nobility) not giving a shit about the everyday people. The smallfolk literally don't factor into their day except as rubes to be tricked by pomp and circumstance. That some of them got squished in Rhaenys' breakout doesn't matter to her in the least, but the fact that's he didn't roast Alicent and Aegon does (because they're "real" people, not mudfarming schmucks).

The writers and directors have said as much in interviews, this was a deliberate choice designed to highlight the nobility's general callousness towards everyday people.
 
So, as many I actually like what they did with Aemond at the climax:

On one hand it does show that, for all that he is arguably THE monster of the whole Dance he didn't, in fact, actually want to break one of Westeros' key taboo and something that anyone with half a brain would know probably mean war. I'd actually disagree with others and say that not even on some level can he be said to have deliberately killed him since until the very last moment he was trying to rein Vhagar in.

On the other, however, it does show that for all of its pretentions to being this formidable Targaryen prince, the rider of the biggest dragon in the world and a man who study history and philosophy as he put it himself, but instead just a petty, immature and cruel teen bully playing with forces he think he understand but doesn't. Like, the inside the show video on youtube said, that's essentially what the scene was when it boil down to it: its Westeros' equivalent of a schoolyard bullying scene... until it isn't.

The Aegon I and Jahaerys I he is probably thinking of when he describe himself wouldn't have have used their dragons to toy and give a scare to someone. Even Daemon, for all of his many faults, would never. Hell, even Maegor never would have done it. They wouldn't have done it because unlike Aemond they were adults and experienced dragon riders who actually understand what they are handling. Unlike Aemond they understand that dragons aren't toys you use for cruel games, they aren't bullying instruments. Dragons are massive, powerful beasts who, on some level at least, obey their riders because they have decided to and always retain agency of their own. They are weapons of war. You just don't prime your dragon to attack if you don't want him or her to, you know attack!

All of Westeros will pay the price for his desilusions.
 
So, as many I actually like what they did with Aemond at the climax:

On one hand it does show that, for all that he is arguably THE monster of the whole Dance he didn't, in fact, actually want to break one of Westeros' key taboo and something that anyone with half a brain would know probably mean war. I'd actually disagree with others and say that not even on some level can he be said to have deliberately killed him since until the very last moment he was trying to rein Vhagar in.

On the other, however, it does show that for all of its pretentions to being this formidable Targaryen prince, the rider of the biggest dragon in the world and a man who study history and philosophy as he put it himself, but instead just a petty, immature and cruel teen bully playing with forces he think he understand but doesn't. Like, the inside the show video on youtube said, that's essentially what the scene was when it boil down to it: its Westeros' equivalent of a schoolyard bullying scene... until it isn't.

The Aegon I and Jahaerys I he is probably thinking of when he describe himself wouldn't have have used their dragons to toy and give a scare to someone. Even Daemon, for all of his many faults, would never. Hell, even Maegor never would have done it. They wouldn't have done it because unlike Aemond they were adults and experienced dragon riders who actually understand what they are handling. Unlike Aemond they understand that dragons aren't toys you use for cruel games, they aren't bullying instruments. Dragons are massive, powerful beasts who, on some level at least, obey their riders because they have decided to and always retain agency of their own. They are weapons of war. You just don't prime your dragon to attack if you don't want him or her to, you know attack!

All of Westeros will pay the price for his desilusions.

Yeah, it makes Aemond a more complex character but also makes him less of like a cool psycho badass, which I feel is good on both counts.
 
When Gregor Clegane massacres civilians in GoT, Eddard Stark declares it a breach of the King's Peace and orders him attained. You can't just kill people, even peasants, and get away with it!

This is also 200 years since the targs had dragons.

Dragons make the targaryans arrogant. Rhaenyra says it in this episode. Targaryans are closer to gods then men. The smallfolk don't matter even in that way that they provide food for the knights and men at arms because, well, the targaryans don't need those things nearly as much. They have dragons.

It's why the eventual reversal is so thematic. It's a huge deal.
 
Yeah, it makes Aemond a more complex character but also makes him less of like a cool psycho badass, which I feel is good on both counts.
Indeed, and I feel its also consistent with how Aemond come accross during the Dance itself. Like, yes: he inflict a ton of pain, obviously, but he definitely doesn't seem to have much of a solid tactical and strategic mind. Vaghar being around don't prevent the Blacks to near unite the Riverlands behind them, it doesn't prevent them from smashing the Greens at the Lakeshore and the Butcher's Ball and it doesn't prevent Rhaenyra taking King's Landing. Ultimately he is isn't a big deal because of who he is, merely because he has the biggest dragon.
 
Last edited:
I will say that considering how they've been playing around with how Alicent and Rhaenyra feel about each other, Alicent keeping that page for twenty years is kind of proof that Alicent's feelings were far more than just friendship even if she never realized it. That is some very gay stuff right there.
 
I will say that considering how they've been playing around with how Alicent and Rhaenyra feel about each other, Alicent keeping that page for twenty years is kind of proof that Alicent's feelings were far more than just friendship even if she never realized it. That is some very gay stuff right there.
This is basically my headcanon too. I buy that Alicent is queer honestly, just really repressed. Like her actions in E4 seem like she feels hurt by Rhaenyra fooling around for more reasons than propeity/virtue especially. She talks a lot about 'sacrifice' in being faithfully married to Viserys and not fooling around too, in fact I'm not sure she's expressed any attraction to male characters while Rhaenyra has been much more open with her desires. How she went up to Rhaenyra after the dinner in E8 too gave me a lot of vibes even after all they went through.

Also... "What have I done but what was expected of me? Forever upholding the kingdom, the family, the law, while you flout all to do as you please. Where is duty? Where is sacrifice? It's trampled under your pretty foot again."

Jeez Alicent why did you need to call Rhaenyra pretty?o_O
 
Last edited:
The writers and directors have said as much in interviews, this was a deliberate choice designed to highlight the nobility's general callousness towards everyday people.
The only thing we got was Hess' sarcastic comment "civilians don't count". What else we actually got from the writers were along the lines of this:
Hess said:
I just remember we were in the writer's room one day and I was like: It would be awesome if Rhaenys just came through the floor on a dragon.
And this:
Sapochnik said:
We needed a penultimate scene, so we tried to come up with, 'What's the worst thing that could possibly happen at a coronation'?

And I understand the impulse to come up with explanations for things a show you like do as well as extending them the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are doing. And I am well aware I am doubly negatively biased against the show for dislike of the source material and lack of trust in HBO after Game of Thrones, so it's not like I'm objective or anything.

But sometimes the show just makes a lot of really dubious or plain stupid decisions. It's not a clever subtle messaging about anything.

I see a lot of people trying to explain away some stuff that are just illogical or inconsistent writing on its face, and that just reminds me of similar behavior back when GoT was airing. No, the change from Jeyne Westerling from Talisa Maegyr wasn't an honeypot plot by the Lannisters to make the Red Wedding even more tragic, she was just an anachronistic world war nurse who just happens to have the family name of one of Volantis' powerful families, and Robb's mistake was made into a more simplistic love story. No, D&D did not "foreshadow" Arya killing the Night King due to Melisandre's words to her back in season 3, they just thought it would subvert expectations avoid the expected. And let's not even talk about people trying to retroactively make Mad Dany make sense.

Now, the showrunners of House of the Dragon aren't the same as GoT (except Miguel Sapochnik, who gave us the Battle of the Bastards, the Long Night, and The Bells :V), but I feel they share some of the same habits and audiences are falling into the same patterns of thinking far more about a scene than they appear to have. Like, Aemond this episode: maybe this is about how Targaryens don't really control dragons, and using animals and forces of natures for your petty conflicts is dumb! But maybe this is also part of the pattern of how, since post-timeskip, the show seems unclear on what the motivations of the cast should be and how it leads to the conflict, and unwilling to have them act in at least morally dubious ways to get there, so Aemond oopsie-daisy accidentally kill his nephew. Or how Rhaenys sure didn't want to kill the Greens as it "wasn't her war", but quickly changes her tune and convinces Corlys to get involved in the conflict the next episode. If the show is about nobles jockeying for power and making people suffer, both sides sure seem more like mostly decent people who just clumsily stumble into war.

Maybe they are making a theme about how the common people will suffer, but usually, the show isn't subtle when it wants to message something. "Childbirth is women's battlefields" has been hammered a lot of times throughout the episodes, complete with symbolic parallels with wars. By contrast, the killing of smallfolk seems more like an afterthought to Cool Spectacle to me, and people wanting to read more into it, especially those who want it to presage the boiling over and violent involvement of the populace in the conflict in the form of the Storming of the Dragonpit and Gaemon Palehair's reign. For example, Laenor faked his death, and the focus of the narrative and the camera is on the gay character fleeing the politics to live in happiness with his lover...not on the random (likely common) man who got killed in his place.

I dunno, I feel like if this were truly about the smallfolk, the narrative would make it clearer and more obvious across numerous instances rather than just having random incidents and people only really focusing on last episode's callousness.

EDIT: I don't want to appear to just bash the show, it is miles better than Fire & Blood, especially in the characterization of the Greens, who were either forgettable footnotes or comically evil. But I feel like the show was really at its best pre-timeskip.
 
Last edited:
Oh yeah overall I do very much love the show. It's really high quality, both in terms of production values (it looks really nice), and in terms of little bullshit lore inclusions that only nerd book readers care about (Grover Tully! GROVER TULLY!). I do have my criticisms but the show as a whole has exceeded my expectations.

Honestly stuff like Rhaenys at the Dragonpit, while probably down to some bad writing decisions, aren't really my biggest problems. I have more of an issue with Larys - he's turned out to be a shallow psycho pervert; or Criston Cole - he really hasn't had much of anything to do in the second half of the season, where in the books he's presented as, you know, the Kingmaker, one of the main instigators of the Dance.
 
Something I've been wondering about considering the implied strength of the Velaryon fleet, enough to enforce a massive blockade judging by this episode, combined with the prosperity of the island and it's implied status as a trade hub, just how crowded is most of Driftmark?
 
Something I've been wondering about considering the implied strength of the Velaryon fleet, enough to enforce a massive blockade judging by this episode, combined with the prosperity of the island and it's implied status as a trade hub, just how crowded is most of Driftmark?

It's not exactly a small island, it could be about the size of the Isle of Mann or the Isle of Wight. It has two major ports - Spicetown and Hull - and two castles - High Tide and Castle Driftmark. We also know there's grazing land, probably not farmland but good for sheep and possibly horses.
 
Loved everything about that finale. Really great decisions, and (unlike the funeral episode from a few weeks' ago) beautifully shot from beginning to end. Storm's End was gorgeous. Really liked the Baratheon troops too, which were a lot like the Baratheon men of Season 2 of GOT.

EDIT: GRRM on Daeron and the show:


Very briefly, however, I think Ryan has handled the "jumps" very well, and I love love love both the younger Alicent and Rhaenyra and the adult versions, and the actresses who play them. (Truth be told, we have an incredible cast, and I love all of them). Do I wish we'd had more time to explore the relationship between Rhaenyra and Ser Harwin, the marriage of Daemon and Laena and their time in Pentos, the birth of various and sundry children (and YES, Alicent gave Viserys four children, three sons and a daughter, their youngest son Daeron is down in Oldtown, we just did not have the time to work him in this season), and everything else we had to skip? Sure.

But there are only so many minutes in an episode (more on HBO than on the network shows I once wrote for), and only so many episodes in a season. Fewer and fewer as time goes by, it seems. When I was a boy, shows had 39 episodes a season. By the time I was writing for BEAUTY AND THE BEAST, it was down to 22. Cable shrunk that even further. THE SOPRANOS had 13 episodes per season, but just a few years later, GAME OF THRONES had only 10 (and not even that, those last two seasons). If HOUSE OF THE DRAGON had 13 episodes per season, maybe we could have shown all the things we had to "time jump" over… though that would have risked having some viewers complain that the show was too "slow," that "nothing happened." As it is, I am thrilled that we still have 10 hours every season to tell our tale. (RINGS OF POWER has only 8, as you may have noticed, and my AMC show DARK WINDS is doing 6 episode seasons). I hope that will continue to be true. It is going to take four full seasons of 10 episodes each to do justice to the Dance of the Dragons, from start to finish.

But right now, Ryan Condal's focus is on HOT D season two, and mine is on THE WINDS OF WINTER.

So HOTD will likely be four seasons.
 
Last edited:
Oh wow Aemond being incompetent and psychotic is so much funnier than Aemond just being totally bonkers.

The show runners have said that Aemond is not Psychotic and that he did not mean to kill Luke so him being the one to go burn everyone as a war strategy is not going to make sense. I would have preferred we got the Evil asshole we had in the books as at least his actions made sense with his character. He is going to murder thousands of people but we are supposed to sympathize with him because he regrets it and he can't control Vhagar well.
 
Last edited:
The show runners have said that Aemond is not Psychotic and that he did not mean to kill Luke so him being the one to go burn everyone as a war strategy is not going to make sense. I would have preferred we got the Evil asshole we had in he books as at least his actions made sense with his character. He is going to murder thousands of people but we are supposed to sympathize with him because he regrets it and he can't control Vhagar well.

Obviously I haven't seen the rest of the show but presumably characters like Aemond and Rhaenyra will start out sympathetic and get progressively worse, which makes sense - if your characters start out super evil it's harder to get invested, whereas if we watch their descent into villainy it's more inherently dramatic.
 
The show runners have said that Aemond is not Psychotic and that he did not mean to kill Luke so him being the one to go burn everyone as a war strategy is not going to make sense. I would have preferred we got the Evil asshole we had in he books as at least his actions made sense with his character.
The show runners consistently say stupid things that don't line up well, just ignore them and you will have a better time. When Aemond is demanding a child cut out his eye in front of a bunch of people while under guest right the show runners can claim he isnt psychotic all they want, it doesn't change what they wrote and shot.
 
The show runners consistently say stupid things that don't line up well, just ignore them and you will have a better time. When Aemond is demanding a child cut out his eye in front of a bunch of people while under guest right the show runners can claim he isnt psychotic all they want, it doesn't change what they wrote and shot.
The problem is that they run the show... So the stupid will probably bleed in to it eventually.
 
The show runners consistently say stupid things that don't line up well, just ignore them and you will have a better time. When Aemond is demanding a child cut out his eye in front of a bunch of people while under guest right the show runners can claim he isnt psychotic all they want, it doesn't change what they wrote and shot.
Luke wasn't under the guest's right and he is not just "a child"... and Aemond obviously has legitimate grievances against him.
Not to say Aemond's behavior was normal but not necessarily deranged either. He just can't handle the Strong boys well, both because of the bullying and due to the eye thing.

I would have preferred we got the Evil asshole we had in the books as at least his actions made sense with his character. He is going to murder thousands of people but we are supposed to sympathize with him because he regrets it and he can't control Vhagar well.
Aemond going in a dark path will also make sense to his character. Blood and Cheese, remember?
 
Luke wasn't under the guest's right and he is not just "a child"... and Aemond obviously has legitimate grievances against him.
Not to say Aemond's behavior was normal but not necessarily deranged either. He just can't handle the Strong boys well, both because of the bullying and due to the eye thing.


Aemond going in a dark path will also make sense to his character. Blood and Cheese, remember?

Last I checked 14 years old is not a adult and if Luke as a envoy who came to deliver a peaceful message to Borros was not under guest right then what was Borros's reason for not wanting blood shed in his halls unless it would break a rule. Some comes to your house under a flag of truce then they are a guest and should be treated as one.
 
The show runners consistently say stupid things that don't line up well, just ignore them and you will have a better time. When Aemond is demanding a child cut out his eye in front of a bunch of people while under guest right the show runners can claim he isnt psychotic all they want, it doesn't change what they wrote and shot.
Guest Right in ASOIAF and GOT is not that you can't threaten somebody, is that you can't attack somebody without them attacking you first, Borros says "Not in my hall!" When Aemond goes forwards towards Lucerys, not when he tell him to take out his eye, because again he isn't attacking him and it is allowed to threaten somebody under guest rights, the host can also tell the person that threateans somebody to fuck off and there is no issue in there.

Also Aemond is not really psychotic, Lucerys permanently crippled him as a child for taking a dragon, which is something expected of a Targaryen, and then Lucerys's mom commits what Aemond sees as high treason, so it isn't unreasonable that an already aggresive teenager threatens somebody who not only he has a deep personal hatred of but also is complicit in a crime that he sees as treason, it at best is an overly aggresive threat from a guy with more than enough reasons in his mind to do his actions and it certainly doesn't show a psychotic person, maybe somebody who could become one, but not an actively crazy teenager.
 
Also Aemond is not really psychotic, Lucerys permanently crippled him as a child for taking a dragon, which is something expected of a Targaryen, and then Lucerys's mom commits what Aemond sees as high treason, so it isn't unreasonable that an already aggresive teenager threatens somebody who not only he has a deep personal hatred of but also is complicit in a crime that he sees as treason, it at best is an overly aggresive threat from a guy with more than enough reasons in his mind to do his actions and it certainly doesn't show a psychotic person, maybe somebody who could become one, but not an actively crazy teenager.
Aemond was perfectly within his rights to claim Vhagar, but people kind of overlook that Aemond A: Picked the worst time to claim her, B: Was nothing but aggressively assholish to all four of the kids and was constantly escalating the fight even if he wasn't the one to start the fight and C: Was outright spouting treason himself.

And regardless, Aemond knows these are delicate times and that his mother wants a peaceful resolution, that's why he was sent to grab Aegon after all. Storm's End was the single worst time to start shit over an old grudge and he knew that. And this isn't even like the books where Borros and his daughters basically egged Aemond on, here no one pushed him and Lucerys at no point was remotely aggressive towards him.
 
Back
Top