To paraphrase the joke "Is it the God of the Protestants or the God of the Catholics you're atheist against?"
History Strikes Back (TNO/TLM ISOT into OTL)
- Thread starter StarMaker764
- Start date
- Timeline Post-1900 Supernatural
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- Tags
- tno isot (isekai)
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Probably the TLM version of Avatar, which- while an alt-TL version of the 2009 movie- was direct by the TLM!Kim, and released much earlier. The OTL Kim is likely very jealous of his alternate self, who's gotten to live out his dream of being a filmmaker.
- Pronouns
- It/Its
American white supremacists loving the Luddye is very funny to me
More the less-ghoulish White nationalists who can tell their swastika bearing friends that this is how they "bury the hatchet" with the Jews and get rid of the taint of the Holocaust.
Out,damned spot!
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IBoJTFQMQZM
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Raiho-kun
This Cycle's Second Biggest Communism Builder
Have Turkey and Indonesia already begun moving towards the Western Bloc, or is this simply just part of their larger opportunistic "cooperation" in the hopes of remaining a middleman to both sides? Granted, I'd expect Turkey to go for the former, seeing how the UAR is right on their doorstep.
I'd hope the Pope whose (overstated) claim to fame was putting a nail on the coffin for godlessness and communism in Eastern Europe would at least be cognizant and lucid enough to take in the implications of Allah/YHVH/God warping the Red Spectre back into the world.
Meanwhile Sinéad O'Connor having the best laugh of her life: Perhaps, Your Oh-So Holiness, you should have taken those Church SA cases more seriously?
Forget Bay of Pigs, that idea has the same merit as the US sponsoring Ukrainian nationalists to invade the USSR during the Cold War.
Granted, this is Joseph R. Biden we're talking about.
(NSFW) Courtesy of the Black Panther Party
I see this more as an opening up the divide between "Pan-European" white nationalists (largely found in North America) as opposed to those of the staunchly "anti-globalist" nationalist variety in Europe.
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- Location
- The observable universe
Bit of both, basically Turkey is firmly in the Western bloc's side for now at least, its a NATO member and a state that is bound to clash with the UAR, Indonesia's case is more complicated because some pragmatists do wanna have ties with both Cairo and Washington in hopes of playing them off each other but in both cases the main push behind both states' efforts is seeing the potential danger of a leftist-flavoured Islamic doctrine becoming widespread, especially in Indonesia's case given its tentative liberalisation.
Will erdogan still be president?
Mazeka
You must be joking
- Location
- United States
He was already elected Prime Minister back in November 2002, so I'd say there's a decent chance he'll try for the presidency later. Especially since he can easily point to the scary communist giant on their border (who's probably arming the Kurds).
I'm surprised that Zapadoslavia was ever willing to take prisoners of war in a conflict with CAR. Maybe child soldiers, if CAR uses them?
(Like I need to ask that. CAR probably invented whole new forms of child soldiery and war crimes categories).
They failed when they tried it against an impoverished, unstable and isolated island nation on America's doorstep. What makes them think it could work against a peer superpower?
Spylobster
Centrist-Malenyevist
I think the USA is still kind of in denial about the UAR. The original assumption of the UAR being a weak tinpot dictatorship fell apart, but the Americans are now trying to convince themselves that it's a prison of nations that just needs nudging in the right places to fall apart like Yugoslavia.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
Because this is 2002, the same flaws in strategic thinking that led to Iraqi Freedom are still present. Interventionism's track record since 1983 was positive. Nobody's questioned whether they should get involved in problems since the Lebanon bombings… right up until the Royal Navy got nuked.
People don't often talk about how deeply involved Biden was in getting the Serbia intervention off the ground.
North and South (2002-2005)
- Location
- The observable universe
"I should tie myself to no particular system of society other than of socialism."—Nelson Mandela
In the 1990s, the African National Congress faced a choice when it came to power after apartheid finally crumbled. The newly empowered socialist party could either stay in power by following the new Washington consensus and betray its promises of social welfare and redistribution or it could attempt to go through with its promises and risk the ire of an unopposed United States, which risked everything from renewed sanctions, empowerment of pro-apartheid groups and perhaps even invasion (as demonstrated by Iraq).
The ANC would choose the former, and as a result found itself having the unenviable task of governing while watching its promises and support base slowly rot away as segregation and racism began to reassert themselves ever so insidiously, only using the language of free market economics and social studies instead of blatant racism.
Post-Wamda, the party that had governed South Africa for about a decade, was now faced with a new choice.
The existence of the UAR complicated things for the triple-capitaled republic with the economic crisis that had immediately followed for sure and the government could do without the increased scrutiny of a Washington panicking over the prospect of a red Africa, but it was clear that the South African believed these new Arabs could offer many opportunities as well as evidenced by their swift recognition of the Republic and their latter support for the UAR within the UN and in international diplomatic and humanitarian efforts (such as the Neo-Comintern's clashes with the UN when it came to the post-Tsunami efforts in Asia and the Haitian Crisis).
From there on South African-Arab relations would only become warmer; helped by the UAR's generous support when it came to anti-AIDS (or ICS as they called it) campaigns and the fact that President Tarik Afif was a strong supporter of closer ties between the two largest African economies (and was also a known admirer of Nelson Mandela in the long march timeline, even being elected on a platform inspired by the Mandelian Cosmopolitan Integrationism).
While many attribute the seeming friendship between the two nations to the left-wing history of the ANC and the surface similarities between the two societies (both being multiethnic African societies grappling with legacies of colonialism) there was a more pragmatic aspect to the budding relations of the two nations.
For South Africa hopping on the Arabs' good side early allowed them to ride out the Post-Wamda Crisis much better than many of their Arabophobic counterparts, the Socialist Superpower generously providing much in terms of oil, phosphates, and other valuable resources at much better terms than offered to most anyone else; and Cairo was more than happy to aid in stabilizing countries bordering the rainbow nation. The UAR's existence had also boosted commerce and international shipping through South Africa, with the Suez Canal now being much more expensive to use and outright barred for many trade-hungry nations that the Cape of Good Hope was now the only economically viable alternative, especially with the Panama Canal facing problems handling its own increased traffic.
From the Republic's side, courting the post-apartheid nation was simply one part of its African strategy with a friendly South Africa likely to synergize with the UAR's efforts in Mozambique, Angola, and Namibia in order to paint the south of Africa red, or at least ensure that most of it was friendly and on its side rather than Washington's. South Africa was of particular interest and focus for COIN because of its large developed economy, its nominally and historically left-wing ruling party, and the fact that a Red South Africa means that the neo-Comintern would deal a significant blow to international capital by bisecting the world in half and making global trade even more restricted and sluggish.
The United States was aware of all this and was not idle by any means. Though sanctions were clearly not an effective deterrent against the UAR, they were more effective in forcing Capetown to water down its efforts at reclaiming its mass party roots; especially when the US was more than willing to follow up on such threats when compliance was not to its liking, such as when new social welfare policies or pro-labor laws contradicted with free trade agreements. Likewise, many prominent ANC members found the possibility of being removed from terrorist watchlists growing ever slimmer, and many others would one day wake up to find themselves barred from traveling to many places on account of past actions being suddenly brought to light.
Money, political and moral support (and arms some whispered) would also begin to follow into the hands of parties more amenable to working with the US and expressed hostility to the UAR or in some cases just hostility to the ANC in general, and Johannesburg was now seeing more threatening and common right wing and in a few cases pro-apartheid rallies across the country as it began to see similar trends of polarization as the rest of the world.
This proved enough to lend credence to the more liberal and right-wing factions of the party who believed that a swerve to the Cairene camp would threaten to undo all their accomplishments in the past decade if they made the US a direct enemy. Others took the opposite direction; believing that America's unbridled hostility even towards tepid reformist measures was enough proof that they would never be satisfied with anything save complete capitulation to the Washington consensus.
Eventually, it seemed that a weird unspoken compromise between the two groups emerged as much of the ANC's leadership and policies began to grow ever bolder in swerving to the left, even as they still maintained reformist rhetoric and shied away from measures more in line with the old-Comintern's DOTP model (despite many warnings from their Arab peers); making it clear that the ANC was banking on being able to navigate a tightrope between warming to Cairo and not provoking Washington while managing a relatively bloodless transition to socialism…
| Such wishful thinking |
- Location
- Northish
CIA:"How many socialist leaders do we have to execute before you learn socialism doesn't work?"
Spylobster
Centrist-Malenyevist
I'm guessing the USA instigates a Cape separatist rebellion or something like that.
- Location
- Fort Worth, TX
Wonder how many groups accept Western money and use it for their own purposes.
Honestly it sounds like the USA is trying to support the Boers against the South African Government so they can at very minimum occupy the Government's attention and either stall or reverse their slide to more leftist governance.
So basically Boer Rebellion Round 2: This time it's the Liberals funding it instead of the Nazis. Hopefully this time South Africa doesn't get Scorched Earth.
So basically Boer Rebellion Round 2: This time it's the Liberals funding it instead of the Nazis. Hopefully this time South Africa doesn't get Scorched Earth.
- Location
- The observable universe
Lots of CAR officials and officers chickened out on the whole fighting to the death thing and tried to run off to the US, many didn't make it before being rounded up by the Cominavy. Not a lot of child soliders survived sadly since their superiors often pump them with insane amounts of drugs that kill them when the bombardments don't get them first.
Though the US (or rather the people running it) have moved on from most initial flawed assumptions on the UAR, they still see its ethnic diversity as the thing that will bring it down if pushed hard enough; just as Russian and Serbian chauvinism brought down the USSR and Yugoslavia; though in their defence they mostly believe this will the labor of years of propaganda work and promoting separatism. Their Neo-Israel counterparts however believe that an IDF contingent capturing a few border towns or assaulting Tal-Afif is all that is needed to compel the "oppressed" jewish masses in the UAR to rise up and subsequently cause the whole thing to fall apart.
The FRG if anything feels less guilty, believing that TTL's German people were clearly more liberal and morally superior to their TLM counterpart and thats why the Nazis lost plus they are compensating for that by being Neo-Israel's strongest solider. TLM displaced Germans however are in the awkward position where their Zapadoslav comrades are the ones apologising and also apparently their failure to stop hitler was what led to global communism.
Many such cases
Stay tuned
UAR: uncanny how history keeps rhyming
Raiho-kun
This Cycle's Second Biggest Communism Builder
To be honest, open support for a return to Apartheid or Boer separatism isn't going to be permissible. By this point, Afrikaner nationalists and Apartheid supporters are too toxic an association, whether in NATO states or in South Africa. There's a reason they were deemed a liability when the Cold War was over and communism no longer needed to be "contained" within Africa, beyond the simple fact that they are a bunch of incompetent, dogmatic shitheads.
By contrast, there are a good many liberal, non-overtly-racist strains of the anti-ANC opposition who'd be more likely boosted by Western support for "democratic forces" within SA, like the Democratic Alliance or more fringe movements like CapeXit. In the event a Second Maritz Rebellion or smaller scale terrorist attacks occurs, the more likely response from the West would amount to "shaking my head so people know I disagree" while both-sidesing the situation, claiming that the "radical" and "Communist-infiltrated" ANC "pushed too far" and is unfit to lead the Rainbow Democracy.
Now, this doesn't mean we aren't going to see a paper trail of "goodies" handed out to Boer nationalists going back to the US military, just like we've seen of their support of far right groups all over. But that's just going to be dismissed as commie propaganda.
It would be easy to point out how hypocritical this sounds coming from the self-proclaimed "melting pot" but it makes perfect sense given the US's national mythology has this assimilationist and exceptionalist outlook (that one "you cannot become German but anyone can become American" speech by Reagan reflects it perfectly). People become "American" first and foremost whereas the UAR fully encourages pluralism and internationalism.
By contrast, there are a good many liberal, non-overtly-racist strains of the anti-ANC opposition who'd be more likely boosted by Western support for "democratic forces" within SA, like the Democratic Alliance or more fringe movements like CapeXit. In the event a Second Maritz Rebellion or smaller scale terrorist attacks occurs, the more likely response from the West would amount to "shaking my head so people know I disagree" while both-sidesing the situation, claiming that the "radical" and "Communist-infiltrated" ANC "pushed too far" and is unfit to lead the Rainbow Democracy.
Now, this doesn't mean we aren't going to see a paper trail of "goodies" handed out to Boer nationalists going back to the US military, just like we've seen of their support of far right groups all over. But that's just going to be dismissed as commie propaganda.
It would be easy to point out how hypocritical this sounds coming from the self-proclaimed "melting pot" but it makes perfect sense given the US's national mythology has this assimilationist and exceptionalist outlook (that one "you cannot become German but anyone can become American" speech by Reagan reflects it perfectly). People become "American" first and foremost whereas the UAR fully encourages pluralism and internationalism.
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- Location
- The observable universe
The US is pumping money and support to anyone who's anti-left in South Africa rn and some Of those just happen to be fronts for Boer nationalists or at least affiliated with them. The US is cognizant that a return to apartheid is extremely unlikely but also cares more about making things chaotic and unstable for the ANC that they get spooked and back down, or at least fumble the bag hard enough that more amenable liberals are put into power.
This is also why some believe that it will be even easier to turn ethnicities against one another because the UAR doesn't even have things like ASSRs or SSRs to act as "release valves" for ethnic nationalism. There is also the idea that there is an undercurrent of Arab chauvinism to exploit since it is the United Arab Republic rather than something more inclusive.
On the last part the UAR may respond with "actually that's a fair point" and change its name into the Union of Majles Republics
Raiho-kun
This Cycle's Second Biggest Communism Builder
Given the name, are there talks of transitioning to a federal system or am I reading too much into it and it would it more likely be the "United Republic of the Majles/United Majlesi Republic"?
CIA: 'Tries to massively destabilize the region by formenting racial and national strife'
*Rolls Natural 1*
UAR: 'Addresses long ignored foundational issues which needed to be fixed for a long time and massively stabilizes themselves on multiple levels'
- Location
- The observable universe
Depends on whose in charge of the UAR at the time and how pro-Unitarian/Federalism they are, and also wether the Comintern decides to pick up where it left off in TLM and start working on abolishing silly concepts such as nation-states and unifying all its members into one superstate.
Still better than their assassinate Castro rolls
- Location
- Ireland
- Pronouns
- He/They/She
I'm imagining someone rolling a dice whose faces go from one to six, only for it to somehow turn up zero.
Every.
Single.
Time.