Leingod
Immaculate Blooming Lotus
In terms of actually teaching them to fight? Gai taught Lee everything he knows. That and Kakashi teaching Sasuke the Chidori and how to use the Sharingan is pretty much it.
Hidden In the Leaves Redux (Naruto Quest)
- Thread starter Dead-Not
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In terms of actually teaching them to fight? Gai taught Lee everything he knows. That and Kakashi teaching Sasuke the Chidori and how to use the Sharingan is pretty much it.
Dead-Not
Insomniac Supreme
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Leingod
Immaculate Blooming Lotus
Though if you're not looking at pure combat effectiveness and instead looking at what they taught their students, it's a little better. Still not great, but not abysmal, and with only one real failure (Sasuke).
Kakashi taught Team 7 (or rather, Naruto and to a lesser extent Sakura) to value their teammates and work together with them through thick and thin. Without that lesson, they would have died, either in Wave or during the Chuunin Exam.
Asuma was the one who passed on the Will of Fire to Shikamaru. This was arguably the most important thing he learned period, because Shikamaru's biggest flaw early on was his lack of motivation.
Gai imparted Lee with the Springtime of Youth (TM) that made a talentless kid into one of the greatest taijutsu masters in the world.
Kurenai... honestly she's just kind of there until Asuma dies. I can't say anything about it because we barely even see her with her team, much less teaching them anything.
Sure, the jounin-sensei didn't give the Konoha Twelve a lot of lessons that lead to them gaining any power, but they didn't need it. After all, most of them had clans or Sannin mentors to help with that (all of them, in fact, except poor Tenten). But they did teach them to be good, effective, loyal ninja to Konoha, which is probably much more important in Konoha's eyes anyway.
I have a specific defense for Kakashi, but that would make this even longer, so I'll save it for another post.
EDIT: And when you think about it, Kakashi has a better track record with students than all other Team 7 sensei.
Minato? One student was thought dead and ended up pulling the strings of a terrorist organization that declared war on the world, one got turned into a ticking time bomb that had to get put down by the remaining one, and the remaining one is a PTSD-afflicted mess.
Jiraiya? One student founded a terrorist organization that declared war on the world, one died and got used as a puppet by the former, and the last one supported the first one until his death, then promptly got killed off by Minato's worst student.
Sarutobi? One student became a boy-hungry pedophile with a snake fetish and an obsession with incredibly unethical research, one snapped under the pressure and became a homeless, jobless, drunken compulsive gambler who brought shame to her village and her name for decades, and the only remaining loyal one became a shiftless pervert and pornographer... in addition to being one of the most awesome ninja in existence, admittedly.
Kakashi taught Team 7 (or rather, Naruto and to a lesser extent Sakura) to value their teammates and work together with them through thick and thin. Without that lesson, they would have died, either in Wave or during the Chuunin Exam.
Asuma was the one who passed on the Will of Fire to Shikamaru. This was arguably the most important thing he learned period, because Shikamaru's biggest flaw early on was his lack of motivation.
Gai imparted Lee with the Springtime of Youth (TM) that made a talentless kid into one of the greatest taijutsu masters in the world.
Kurenai... honestly she's just kind of there until Asuma dies. I can't say anything about it because we barely even see her with her team, much less teaching them anything.
Sure, the jounin-sensei didn't give the Konoha Twelve a lot of lessons that lead to them gaining any power, but they didn't need it. After all, most of them had clans or Sannin mentors to help with that (all of them, in fact, except poor Tenten). But they did teach them to be good, effective, loyal ninja to Konoha, which is probably much more important in Konoha's eyes anyway.
I have a specific defense for Kakashi, but that would make this even longer, so I'll save it for another post.
EDIT: And when you think about it, Kakashi has a better track record with students than all other Team 7 sensei.
Minato? One student was thought dead and ended up pulling the strings of a terrorist organization that declared war on the world, one got turned into a ticking time bomb that had to get put down by the remaining one, and the remaining one is a PTSD-afflicted mess.
Jiraiya? One student founded a terrorist organization that declared war on the world, one died and got used as a puppet by the former, and the last one supported the first one until his death, then promptly got killed off by Minato's worst student.
Sarutobi? One student became a boy-hungry pedophile with a snake fetish and an obsession with incredibly unethical research, one snapped under the pressure and became a homeless, jobless, drunken compulsive gambler who brought shame to her village and her name for decades, and the only remaining loyal one became a shiftless pervert and pornographer... in addition to being one of the most awesome ninja in existence, admittedly.
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notmi
Super Koala God Super Koala
That worked so well with Sasuke. Truly, he was an example to us all.
Leingod
Immaculate Blooming Lotus
That worked so well with Sasuke. Truly, he was an example to us all.
I did point out that Sasuke was the failure of the bunch. Which, as an edit to my post points out, Kakashi actually came out ahead on as far as Team 7s go. Because when you really think about it, which Team 7 had the worst traitor?
Sarutobi - Orochimaru
Jiraiya - Nagato/Pain
Minato - Obito/Tobi
Compared to those three, Sasuke is chump change in terms of actual harm done. You can't even say that Sasuke's the most petty of the four, since Orochiimaru does all the horrible, vile things he does just because he's obsessed with learning all the world's jutsu.
notmi
Super Koala God Super Koala
Honestly, the only one that's really comparable for me there is Sarutobi.
Jaraiya literally trained some orphans in another village that was being oppressed by a tyrant. Did you expect them to become loyal Leaf ninja?
Minato died, and so it's hard to really compare him to Kakashi, who managed to stay alive through the whole story. Minato trained a group that, while not exactly on the best of terms, was at least loyal. It took mostly dying and then seeing the person he loved murdered by his other teammate to turn Obito traitor. We don't actually know how it would have turned out if Minato stayed alive. Sasuke left because of some emotional manipulation and ANGST. Also, don't forget that Sakura totally would have left with Sasuke if he let her.
I'm not going to argue that Sarutobi fucked up, because he totally did, on pretty much ever account.
Dead-Not
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First Cj, there is no reason why he (Kakashi) can't train him (Sasuke) part time like Ebisu was going to for Naruto. Jiraiya didn't teach Naruto shit. Kyuubi doesn't count as he barely made progress with that and Naruto got further with it in a couple of months with Bee than his two years with Jiraiya. Also, really? Sandaime-sama? He makes some very questionable moves himself, and honestly if Naruto knew that he would possibly have to condemn a child to a childhood like his then he probably wouldn't look up to the Hokage's so much and rather not become a Kage. Besides that, just because someone is good at something doesn't mean that they'll be a good teacher of what they're good at. Now excuse me for using a basketball metaphor, but many people who have played in the NBA or the Euroleague professionally are great players. However they're shit coaches, with examples being Isiah Thomas two time NBA Champion with the 'Badboys Era' Detroit Piston's led the Knicks to two absolutely disastrous seasons. Magic Johnson, three time NBA MVP, Five time NBA Champion with the LA Lakers coached for sixteen games where he lead the Lakers to a 5-11 record before giving. Both were renown to hold genius level playmaking ability and high IQ's basketball wise and generally. (hilariously enough they're best friends). Lastly we literally see they're (Team 7's) teamwork work once if memory serves correctly.
I agree with you on Sakura though.
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Actually there is .training A bloodline trait is not easy let alone one that you're not even trained in (his was shoved in his eye socket with no training) and a very small pool chakra. Don't think his body could stand continuous use of the shanninggun and other jutsus trying to teach both students.
Really??? OK first summoning jutsu you know the giant mountainsized toad that Naruto summons on occasion? Second Jiryas training Naruto lost control of his facilities at one tail was severely impacted mentally at zero tales. After his training Naruto is able to stay in control for the most part for all of type one chakra cloak. And you can't really blame him for not being able to teach how to control a tailed beast because well ge had no freaking clue.
Also would like to point out that He taught Naruto the rasengaun you know the move that he spams every five seconds or so.
As for the third, what do you want? his options were A childhood like Naruto's or B The life of Garra
Pick which one would work better. He made best of what he could of a shitty situation.
Also would like to point out that the students weren't that great either. naruto didn't notice all these clones shared experiences for YEARS andMILLIONS of clones
. And of course Emo Saske is Emo No one in that seris is above being hit with the stupid stick.
Dead-Not
Insomniac Supreme
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There is no reason why Kakashi couldn't schedule days where he trains Sasuke in the use of the shanninggun (love the name you use for it btw lol) and days where he trains them all together. Next I apologize it seems I was misunderstood, I meant what new did he teach Naruto. And really I don't remember much usage of the type one chakra cloak. Not to mention it was a dumb idea for Jiraiya to put all his effort into that when he had no fucking clue what to do. He could have taught Naruto a hell of a lot more if he didn't concentrate so much on something he didn't understand.Actually there is .training A bloodline trait is not easy let alone one that you're not even trained in (his was shoved in his eye socket with no training) and a very small pool chakra. Don't think his body could stand continuous use of the shanninggun and other jutsus trying to teach both students.
Really??? OK first summoning jutsu you know the giant mountainsized toad that Naruto summons on occasion? Second Jiryas training Naruto lost control of his facilities at one tail was severely impacted mentally at zero tales. After his training Naruto is able to stay in control for the most part for all of type one chakra cloak. And you can't really blame him for not being able to teach how to control a tailed beast because well ge had no freaking clue.
Also would like to point out that He taught Naruto the rasengaun you know the move that he spams every five seconds or so.
As for the third, what do you want? his options were A childhood like Naruto's or B The life of Garra
Pick which one would work better. He made best of what he could of a shitty situation.
Also would like to point out that the students weren't that great either. naruto didn't notice all these clones shared experiences for YEARS andMILLIONS of clones
No one in that seris is above being hit with the stupid stick.
As for the third, both options A and B are pretty fucking bad as both cause them to become isolated from society, no matter how you look at it. Why would he tell the village that just finished getting wrecked by the Demon that's sealed into the poor child that it's sealed into the poor child. There is no way you can have that much faith override the logical thought that they'll ostracize him for it. Hell it's known Jinchuuriki's are ostracized everywhere except Kumo. And then when they want the child's bloody head, your solution, your attempt at damage control, is to make it so they can't mention the Kyuubi?
Yeah wonderful. Sure now the kids basically gonna live in isolation with everyone not-so-covertly hating him saying he's a monster and telling him to get the fuck out of my shop. Mmhm real nice Minato, Sarutobi. So much for the Will of Fire.
And yeah neither Naruto or Sasuke were pretty great. And to be honest, everyone has moments where they're holding a 500 lbs idiot ball in they're hand in terms of certain plot points. It's mostly Sandaime who annoys me along with Kakashi and lots of other people in Konoha.
It's a shounen anime. "Good teacher" is an oxymoron in this context.
People can only truly advance in their studies by highly dramatic methods. Which means suffering horribly and stupidly, personal revelation or becoming an antagonist. The middle is impossible to bring about on a regular basis, so teachers have to choose between ensuring their student stays alive and sane and having their student learn useful techniques. Neither choice is being a good teacher.
notmi
Super Koala God Super Koala
That's such a mix of OOC and IC that it's a pretty much meaningless argument. Unless you think Shonen teachers are all genre-savvy or something?
I don't know if all Shounen teachers are genre-savvy. It seems like it would be pretty hard to miss how knowledge/power acquisition works in your world, but I'm willing to suspend my disbelief.
However, your question has moving goalposts.
The nature of being a teacher in Shounen is that introducing your pupils to new information or being great at explaining are entirely useless unless you can do it dramatically or prompt your pupil to drama. Good teachers as we know them don't get good results. People with good results as teachers are awful teachers by our standards.
So, do you want good teachers by our standards or teachers with good results?
notmi
Super Koala God Super Koala
You entirely missed the point. You're basically invoking tropes as an IC explanation of why good teachers don't actually result in powerful students, which is retarded. Beyond that, you then go on to say that teachers, IC, know that being a good teacher is a bad thing, and thus purposely act like bad teachers to get results.
There are no shifting goal posts, just you going on an irrelevant tangent. This honestly isn't even an argument.
Leingod
Immaculate Blooming Lotus
His point, I think, is that you basically can't judge the jounin-sensei on their merits as teachers for the simple reason that they're constrained by the conventions of the genre of the work they inhabit. In action-heavy shounen, power-ups have to be the result of something dramatic and usually something that's dangerous, life-changing or both. Thus all of the jounin-sensei either recklessly endanger their students or are completely ineffectual. The problem lies less with the characters themselves being bad teachers, and more with the fact that it's impossible to be what any normal person would call a good teacher in a shounen story. It's a conceit of the genre, and hating the characters for succumbing to it is kind of pointless.
When you talk about the characters, you have to keep in mind the work they inhabit. Ranma 1/2, for example, is a silly comedy about a bunch of sociopathic assholes; if you start looking at it realistically, the conduct of basically every single character becomes utterly disgusting and reprehensible. If you want to do a more realistic look at such a work, you have to either
a.) spend the whole time wangsting and accusing and condemning characters who weren't really meant to be looked at critically, or
b.) make the character themselves act in a way befitting a more realistic take on who they are. For example, make Kakashi less crippled as a person so that you can actually believe Sarutobi trusting him with the education of two of the most important genin in the village. Make him quirky instead of utterly useless, so you can keep the core of the character without making him ridiculous for the tone that you're going for.
will408914
(slouching towards bethlehem)
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You're not looking at the argument the right way. You're condemning Kakashi for not living up to your standards of a teacher, and then ignoring that, due to the genre restraints of shonen manga, he can't, because like silentspirals said, even if he tries to be a good teacher, only dramatic teachers will actually be able to teach anything.
- Pronouns
- Exist
[X] Suggest that the three of us train and crash at the Shimura compound. Because let's face it, there are perks to being a clan child--like being able to talk to active and retired Ninja who like/tolerate you and want you to succeed/not fail. Maybe they will have more of an idea on this Kakashi guy and what he's going to throw at us.
Leingod
Immaculate Blooming Lotus
Well yeah, that's kind of the point of fanfiction and other fanworks; you're not really satisfied with canon, so you write it the way you think it should have been written. Which is why I think Naruto inspires so much fanfiction, incidentally: the premise, the world and the characters all have a lot of potential, but between the conventions of the genre it's written in, Jump's policies and, well, Kishimoto's own problems as a writer, most of that potential ended up wasted.
The thing with Kakashi is that he's not intended to be a useless, ineffectual screw-up who never taught his non-Sasuke students anything past climbing trees and "teamwork is good, don't f*ck over your teammates." Held back by his quirks and flawed in his approach maybe, but it's clear in-story that he's not supposed to be seen as a terrible teacher.
So basically, canon Kakashi is shit. But this isn't canon, so he doesn't have to be shit, since he's not being written by Masashi Kishimoto on a weekly schedule for Jump.
notmi
Super Koala God Super Koala
That's nice, but not really relevant to the discussion we were having, as it was a discussion on canon. Like, saying that Kakashi, by way of trope, was doomed to be a shit teacher is fine. Saying that he was not a shit teacher because he was somehow aware of those tropes and purposely acted that way is just stupid. Saying that you can't blame him for being shit is also stupid, as it's judging a character IC on OOC reasoning.
For example, there is fanon Dumbledore. IC, he was pretty terrible in a lot of different ways. This was obviously because of a weakness in JK's writing style rather than any intention, but it really shouldn't stop us from concluding that Dumbledore was terrible in a lot of different ways. It can mitigate things, but doesn't invalidate his actual characterization. Mixing up OOC things with IC actions and motivations is just bad.
To put it in perspective, the original debate could be likened to this:
I and another person are debating on whether the Moon Landing actually happened. I say that of course it happened, there's a ton of evidence to support it. The other person says that all of that evidence could just be fabricated and whatever. Then, silentspirals pops over and says that of course it's fake, the moon is made of cheese.
It's possible to make an argument that the Moon Landing was fake, but that's not an acceptable reason. It's possible to make an argument that the teachers on Naruto were good, or doomed to be sucky, but not that they were good because they were sucky intentionally.
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Dead-Not
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It's been Dead-Not from the jump.