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Herrscher(Worm/Honkai) | Herrscher!Taylor
- Thread starter Xasure Higeki
- Start date
- Crossover
- Location
- Sea of Quanta
*Looks at Sirin doding and then blocking gamma-rays that were shot at her from almost point blank range*
Yup. Her reaction and movement speed is horrible
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
We've had this argument before Qro. The manga doesn't count/counts less then cutscenes/game. Unless this is from the Second Eruption one.
- Location
- Sea of Quanta
It absolutely counts, considering it's designated as canon by the devs. And yes, Sirin dodging gamma-rays is from Second Eruption.
Hell, in-game characters are stopped by fences and can't kill a zombie with a weapon that can obliterate a city in one-shot. Even the Honkai Beasts, that are barely bigger than valks in-game, are often much bigger and stronger, even though their size varies.
Xasure Higeki
Detektive der Dummheit
- Location
- Germany
This is true to a degree. Though I will note that regardless of strongest feat, it is also absolutely canon via game story, which is, I will note, the primary Canon the entire 3rd impact world is based around, It is absolutely canon that HoV, which is comparable to Sirin, got hit by significantly slower attacks.
Similar to your size claim. I can easily put forth Will of the Herrscher, which is probably among the strongest canon there is given that it is a story cut scene, meaning it is superior to gameplay showings. In it, we see numerous Honkai... as with Seele. Thus, consistency was established.
That being said, I will say this. If you want a discussion of capabilities, establish a line of authority. Which has more staying power in terms of canoncity
Personally I go Cutscenes, ingame story, ingame side notes, and then supplementary materials, with those costing something having most likely a better coordination than those that don't. I.e Durendal's story has superior staying power to second Eruption. At the far last, is developer statements. They are the least coordinated, back checked and overall trustworthy because A. Developers aren't inherently writers,and even writers get limited info to work with while writing specific things.
That is just my take on that. And while the Mangas for example give us sometimes comparative numbers, I can and I will again prove these numbers to be utter horse shit. That it does give us numbers is a shit argument.
So, if the discussion should continue, please clarify the levels of canonical power first.
- Location
- Sea of Quanta
My main claim was against 'manga isn't cannon', and while a discussion could be had - it's not for fanfiction/CrWr thread methinks.
Besides, this is fanfiction. You can do anything here, including turning WoH into tsundere
WoH is a super tsun-yandere if anything.
- Location
- Sea of Quanta
Tsundere to surpass
Zakara
Semi-Found Cat
- Location
- Chaldea, Bleached Airspace
Like a lot of anime and video games where superhuman combat is a mainstay, we're running into the issue of "portrayal vs reality". Manga and comics are better with this problem because of the flexibility of still medium, but moving depictions must be generally limited.
Adjusting for RL physics, hell, even in-universe physics, we shouldn't be able to reliably see Herrscher and Valkyrie fights simply due to the sheer speed everyone moves at. Attacks, reactions, and general combat movement has to stay at a speed we, the players, are actually capable of following. We see a character get hit by an attack going so-and-so fps, and it clashes with alternative knowledge stating that they've dodged much faster attacks on other occasions. In actuality, that attack was probably approaching relativistic speeds, and it really was beyond the bounds of their reaction speed. It just couldn't be reliably portrayed at that fast.
Such are the limitations of media.
Adjusting for RL physics, hell, even in-universe physics, we shouldn't be able to reliably see Herrscher and Valkyrie fights simply due to the sheer speed everyone moves at. Attacks, reactions, and general combat movement has to stay at a speed we, the players, are actually capable of following. We see a character get hit by an attack going so-and-so fps, and it clashes with alternative knowledge stating that they've dodged much faster attacks on other occasions. In actuality, that attack was probably approaching relativistic speeds, and it really was beyond the bounds of their reaction speed. It just couldn't be reliably portrayed at that fast.
Such are the limitations of media.
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For Kiana, is it a coincidence that all those who fell in love with Kiana are Herrschers(more or less for Fu Hua)? WoH is a yandere for Kiana(and I simp for Kiana since I saw her Flamescion ponytail)
Xasure Higeki
Detektive der Dummheit
- Location
- Germany
While this is true, I will note that I was not talking about this. I was talking about written statements, which do not limit themselves in such a way. However, I will maintain that certain elements, such as cut scenes, can be divided into two parts. One can be explained by limitations of Media, the other, who is core to the narrative of the scene itself. The number of honkai summoned in WIll of the Herrscher is the former, Himeko injecting Kiana with the Serum is the later.
I am fully willing to waive the former, but not the later. This is due to a very simple reason. The moment an supplementary content breaks the narrative of the main piece, which shit like "Sirin can react to Gamma waves" which travel at 299,792,458 metres per second, meaning that to maintain narrative cohension, we need to scale the injector to being fast enough to overcome that reaction time. Now, to be fair, lets assume Sirin was shocked , and didn´t immediately noticed it. Lets say that her reaction time was about a thousand time slower than normal.
Even if we give that generous estimation, the technology required for it would break the setting in half. As in, that is pretty much inarguable. If a simple injector motor can produce that much force to speed it up, that it didn´t break from that, means that they can casually produce materials that would make Space travel insanely easy, just for example.
There are things that can be waived and accepted and all that. Like the Honkai beasts sizes things, the claim that different honkai beasts of the same class, but varying power and size exist is not really.... controversial.
But keeping to that number would, in fact, break the setting and narritive the setting is built around. There are cases where the canons are, in fact, in conflict. That does not mean that one isn´t canon, to be clear, it just means one can not have one with the other.
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The injector came from behind her and she was shocked, how would she react to something she doesn t know is there, we already know honkai energy messes with space time, why wouldn t be able to mess with physics, the injector(well the content but it could have a system that coats the tip with it) has a special effect on the honkai which Herrschers durability comes from
Anyway I think it s pointless to reason with RL physics because to begin with Honkai energy doesn t exist IRL and it has been noted several times to have esoteric or conceptual effects
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- Location
- Zagreb
Ponytails are good civilization
And yes, I was in love with her design/look the moment the ponytail came into play
Also, to briefly comment...it's been over a year since I read the mangas and I wasn't really paying attention to the abilities the characters showed, but rather the story...but Herrschers and valks being able to move at super speeds....yeah either I never properly register that or dismiss it as hyperbole
Are they stronger then regular humans? Undoubtedly
Are they sturdier then regular humans ? Yes
Are they faster then regularhumans? Yes
But having them actually move at such super speeds would create massive, massive narrative issues in-universe...
Unless one refers to devices that enable Valks to create temporary time-fractures, which rather then speeding valkyries up, it slows time down in a small localized area...and has a rather brief operation time
I freely admit that it could be reasonable that Sirin/HoV would have an advanced version of this...except it's still not reflexes but localized time manipulation(which still has limitations)..
And I'm staying out of the durability topic
And yes, I was in love with her design/look the moment the ponytail came into play
Also, to briefly comment...it's been over a year since I read the mangas and I wasn't really paying attention to the abilities the characters showed, but rather the story...but Herrschers and valks being able to move at super speeds....yeah either I never properly register that or dismiss it as hyperbole
Are they stronger then regular humans? Undoubtedly
Are they sturdier then regular humans ? Yes
Are they faster then regularhumans? Yes
But having them actually move at such super speeds would create massive, massive narrative issues in-universe...
Unless one refers to devices that enable Valks to create temporary time-fractures, which rather then speeding valkyries up, it slows time down in a small localized area...and has a rather brief operation time
I freely admit that it could be reasonable that Sirin/HoV would have an advanced version of this...except it's still not reflexes but localized time manipulation(which still has limitations)..
And I'm staying out of the durability topic
Xasure Higeki
Detektive der Dummheit
- Location
- Germany
Alright, since I am doing this again, I will lay it out here.
First flaw of reasoning here. "The injector came from behind her and she was shocked, how would she react to something she doesn t know is there." This is actually false. Unless we presume the thing literally has no weight, she should absolutely have noticed it. But lets presume that. We can very much clearly see her becoming aware of it before it actually inject shit. This is what we can very much clearly see.
Presuming that she was literally not aware of it at all until it was fully injected is not.... unreasonable, but at the same time, about as founded in reality as saying that the feat was just someone talking shit.
"we already honkai energy messes with space time, why wouldn t be able to mess with physics"
Again, no. Actually, double no. The serum was specifically made against honkai infection. Why the hell would it use honkai to introduce the serum into a system ? Like, no. Do recall that the injector was not intended for a Herrscher. It was intended for a Valkyrie. Did they have some magical anti Herrscher injectors around that they put the serum in ?
This... is an acceptable argument. The liquid has been shown to have a strongly adverse affect on Honkai, thus it does make sense that it could screw up the durability. That is a not an unreasonable interference from what we know.
Doesn´t solve the issue though.
First off, Honkai at no point had conceptual effects and hopefully it never will. Fate and it´s bullshit can go off and die in a corner like the trash it is. Secondly, Honkai is pseudo Esoteric. It is not treated as such.
As for the IRL PHysics. Blame the writers then, because they made these feats, they made it so that IRL physics can be applied without if or buts because Honkai is not mythical something, but has been noted to be affected by the fundamental forces of the universe two times. This being the EM Spectrum and gravity.
Regardless of that, I would actually agree. Allow me to show you the cycle of bullshit specific claims.
Writer makes a claim that allows people to get scientific data from it.
This can be done also in picture form.
They don´t know the actual science behind it because they are not scientists and it sounds awesome.
|
V
People take the feat literally and actually get the hard numbers.
|
V
The writers do a scene where the given feat causes a narrative issue due to them not being aware of that feat, or the consequences of that feat
|
V
People will bitch about it.
Now, there are usually three solutions to that issue.This can be done also in picture form.
They don´t know the actual science behind it because they are not scientists and it sounds awesome.
|
V
People take the feat literally and actually get the hard numbers.
|
V
The writers do a scene where the given feat causes a narrative issue due to them not being aware of that feat, or the consequences of that feat
|
V
People will bitch about it.
Option 1: One side is absurd enough to be discarded as being hyperbole.
Option 2: The writers perk up and explain it away. People can theorize it naturally, but the people are not the writers.
Option 3: Somebody brings up the line of "Well, IRL physics don´t need to apply"
This is objectively the worst version. Here is why. because if the response to the physics issue raised by the bullshit claim is "Well, it doesn´t need to follow IRL Physics" that makes the feat meaningless, and everybody is unhappy.
Conclusion: There is no point in arguing it because frankly, nobody will be happy about the outcome. Preferably don´t make pseudo scientific bullshit claims that simply don´t fucking work and don´t require a rewrite of basic rules of reality for your setting.
Like, seriously, saying that it is possible because it doesn´t work on conventional physics is just kinda... Well, what is the point in making the claim then.
Right. Apologies, had a long day and frustations building up. No offense was intended but I wanted to get that out. I am so very sick and tired of the Manga make these claims and people bringing them up. It is just not my cup of tea to have Fluffy the destroyer of worlds in every character.
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It s understandable and what I meant was basically you could argue as much as you want but fiction isn t meant to make sense and in crossovers power levels are whatever the author decides
BanzEye
Omniverse Theory Fanatic
- Location
- The Criss Cross Road
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That does bring up the theory if the Genshin Impact world is actually using magic or something else, since it's been pretty heavily hinted at (if not confirmed, I don't remember) that GI and HI are both in the same universe or something to that effect. Looking at you, Unknown God, AKA Maybe-Possibly-I-Have-No-Friggin-Clue-Herrscher-Kiana! But I digress.
Honestly, I think it would be pretty funny (or terrifying, as the case would be for the inhabitants of Earth Bet) to see the reactions of people towards how Herrschers would fight each other. Considering Herrschers are already leagues above most Valkyries, when explaing how fast the combat is, "ludicrous speed" probably doesn't even come close to covering it. They wouldn't even have to pull a Macross Missle/Laser/That-Whole-Effin-Skyscraper Strike; just by running at each other they'd destroy an entire block due to the shockwave, never mind when they actually start punching stuff.
Never forget this epic quote. It really says everything that matters when it comes down to power levels, character feats, and canon. The writer is the one who decides!Stan Lee said:
We know that Genshin and Honkai are connected through the imaginary tree. We even see Otto having a picture of Dvalin the dragon on his computer once. Also yes magic exists there and it's connected but not wholly reliant on the visions which certain characters get to have. Actually the best way to describe it would be that for people who have visions it enhances magic but that doesn't mean they rely on having visions to actually know or use magic.
They have exorcisms, magic spells, rituals, astrology, and all that jazz. We know Lisa knew magic before getting her vision. Also there are actually gods there. Most reside in Celestia but the archons are all gods who govern a region and the adepti are divine/enlightened creatures. Genshin lore is also pretty deep and interesting but so tedious to get through. Not only that but Mihoyo even put VERY important canon lore in timed events that once you miss you miss but I digress.
The only thing that really hints that Honkai Energy might be a thing there is the abyss and the creatures that come from it. Also one of the flamechasers KK aka Kosma or Kevin, the debate still rages on, knew Lumine and Aether as we can see in their introduction cards that's he's the one introducing them. Though there's still debate on whether K.K. is kosma or Kevin but Kosma is the one who talks about the ark to Mei, which was represented by two stars flying through the sky in the manga, specifically unlike Kevin so I'm leaning towards him being K.K.
The imaginary tree can get weird. It's why the fire archon is called Murata, why the electro archon is called Raiden Ei who is friends with a
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Ah... Dinah's circumstances are now entirely FUBAR. Even if it's actually Aponia somehow, she'll probably still somehow fucked things up even with the bestest of intention. I'm in the camp that it's actually WoH just messing around by sending in another Herrscher, but definitely not corruption. Maybe Domination or Senti.
Still, Aponia is now an element in the entire thing. There will be a lot of passive aggressiveness going on later... ugh. She is unfortunately one of the stronger Chasers.
I think this is playing off how Aponia can "influence" people via her esper power by issuing commands through her voice. In the game it usually has a "please" attached to it and is powerful enough to command Mei the Herrscher of Thunder. Aponia is just polite like that even if she's basically fucking your mentality up, but remember that she has your comfort and wellbeing in mind!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
QM said it's nascent Corruption fucking around
Nah, QM said that guess was the closest so far, not that it was the full picture. It probably has to do with a fragment of Corruption emulating Aponia('s sim) for some reason, but there's still something we are missing.
Yeah, I'm also not the biggest fan of Aponia, but I also can't help but feel sorry for her, since literally anything she tries to do not only doesn't change the outcome but also makes things worse, including choosing not to do anything. I agree though that the glowing white text is most reminiscent of her "please" when manipulating Mei than anything else.
*Edit: For people who are unaware, even the actual Aponia is totally willing to lie about her predictions/fate, so even if she claims something is fated it doesn't mean it really is. Also, while she's never directly shared a vision before in canon, her and other psychics have done similar feats before (sharing senses, going into "mindscapes," ect), so it's not impossible.
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Xasure Higeki
Detektive der Dummheit
- Location
- Germany
Never forget this epic quote. It really says everything that matters when it comes down to power levels, character feats, and canon. The writer is the one who decides!
Gonna print and frame it, just watch me.
Using that as a jumping topic, short update!
Part 4 is effectively done still, although I will probably go friday over it once more and decide if I want to rewrite some sections or not. This won´t affect the release date though.
Shadow of a Queen is 3/5 done, and it is delicious ANGST filled. I will try to finish it at the same time as Part 4 as is gives more context to the choices.
On Aponia, i'm actually wondered if this isn't a case of "self-fulfilling prophecy" going completely rampant, overdosed on steroids, and then ate an energy field bigger than the planet. She was so powerful that she can see the future, but in doing so she was basically convinced that it will happen. She first tried to change it, and when that didn't work she tried not to do anything; that was a bust too. The issue with that me think was that Aponia Believed that it will happen. That's the thing about prophecies: you gotta believe!
With an esper as powerful as Aponia having faith in such? Yes, it might not be the case and that she could indeed see where things are headed. Future Sight has always being one of those iffy topic for me anyway.
And then I recalled that Otto decided to do what he did to and went and changed things for Kallen (Or more like created a whole new future for her). So...
Ahem!
Kiana: ...Sirin, what did you do?
Sirin: ...Is this my fault? How is this my fault? I'm angry, not angsty!
Jokes aside, ty for the small progress report.
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- Location
- The Land of Many Bregrets
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Those wondering about WoH's game playing Diana against Abyss Flower... it's worth noting that 'wiping out the Entities', its currently stated goal, and 'wiping out humanity', its pre-existing goal... they're not exactly mutually exclusive you know?
(Assuming it wasn't just straight up lying to get Kiana and Taylor onboard. I've always wondered what exactly would happen to any surviving Herrschers if the Will of Honkai actually won)
(Assuming it wasn't just straight up lying to get Kiana and Taylor onboard. I've always wondered what exactly would happen to any surviving Herrschers if the Will of Honkai actually won)
Most of the herrschers were to broken to care or where even the source of the wipe out humanity directive
And Honkai is more hyper abusive sink or swim teacher then kill the humans. The Will is "pass my tests and claim the stars or die. I don't care which."