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Hell to Pay

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Hiver said:
He just stared up at me, his eyes widening in horror, unable to move or scream.
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Saint seems to be violating the KISS principle here. He has the officer's body armor, the officer's sidearm and the officer's in-car shotgun or pistol-carbine. If he grabbed a sergeant or other supervisor, he also has the micro-armory in the trunk which will include a battle rifle and additional tactical supplies.

If he just needs ammo he could get that a lot easier than raiding a police armory. Walmart sells ammo, for example, even if you can't get guns without a waiting period or background check. At this point, why does he still need to raid the armory at all?
 
Gindjurra said:
Saint seems to be violating the KISS principle here. He has the officer's body armor, the officer's sidearm and the officer's in-car shotgun or pistol-carbine. If he grabbed a sergeant or other supervisor, he also has the micro-armory in the trunk which will include a battle rifle and additional tactical supplies.

If he just needs ammo he could get that a lot easier than raiding a police armory. Walmart sells ammo, for example, even if you can't get guns without a waiting period or background check. At this point, why does he still need to raid the armory at all?
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From what I remember Hiver's not from the US.

So I am going to guess that his SI either has no idea that's how US cops do things, or is operating under the mistaken idea that the whole "Basically the military" thing people like to say about US cops is true and they keep all that equipment at their stations.
 
Well. I love it, but the current impression of the discussion is different from the impression I got of what he's doing: My bet is he's going to feed the guy a ton and build armor out of his body, remove the armour, and then put the guy back together.
 
Hylas said:
Well. I love it, but the current impression of the discussion is different from the impression I got of what he's doing: My bet is he's going to feed the guy a ton and build armor out of his body, remove the armour, and then put the guy back together.
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I don't believe that for a second. This is some kind of shape-shifting disguise shenanigans. He's not going around turning cops into meat-suits. If that was the plan, there are other targets that are more ethical or easier, and we've seen no indication of that level of skill at applied extreme body horror.
 
Inquiring Mind said:
there are other targets that are more ethical
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Oh, like people who shoot unarmed civilians without cause, regularly beat their wives, spray mace in the faces of children, take advantage of their greater social power to sexually harass people, and commit war crimes on groups of people trying to hold them accountable for all of the above? Yeah, that'd probably be an acceptable target if there ever was one, right?
 
Crimson Doom said:
Oh, like people who shoot unarmed civilians without cause, regularly beat their wives, spray mace in the faces of children, take advantage of their greater social power to sexually harass people, and commit war crimes on groups of people trying to hold them accountable for all of the above? Yeah, that'd probably be an acceptable target if there ever was one, right?
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Though we don't disagree with your analysis of the police, there has been indication that this is not the one the SI is operating off of. And in any case, police are thinking beings in a way that a stray dog, for example, is not, and there's something to be said for not inflicting unnecessary cruelty on thinking beings even if they are bad people.
 
Inquiring Mind said:
Though we don't disagree with your analysis of the police, there has been indication that this is not the one the SI is operating off of. And in any case, police are thinking beings in a way that a stray dog, for example, is not, and there's something to be said for not inflicting unnecessary cruelty on thinking beings even if they are bad people.
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Couldn't have said it any better myself. Thank you for that, voice in someone else's head.
 
Vaermina said:
From what I remember Hiver's not from the US.

So I am going to guess that his SI either has no idea that's how US cops do things, or is operating under the mistaken idea that the whole "Basically the military" thing people like to say about US cops is true and they keep all that equipment at their stations.
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Even a SWAT armory isn't going to have the sort of weapons any military carries. The battle rifle supervisors typically have is semi-automatic not select-fire, any grenade launchers they have will only have smoke, tear gas and pepper loads and hand grenades will be flash-bangs at most. There won't be any demolition charges at all.

The precincts won't have a SWAT armory, that's downtown at police HQ. What he's going to get from the precinct armory is exactly what he already took off that cop he captured if the guy is a supervisor. If the guy isn't a supervisor, he'll get what he took off the cop plus smoke and flash-bang hand grenades and a couple of semi-automatic battle rifles. Sure, there will be spare ammo, but not more than a week's worth for the officers stationed there and most of it will be handgun ammo - maybe a few shotgun doorbuster rounds, but with Taziel's boost he can take down a door better than those anyway.

He would get more rifle and shotgun ammo from buying it at (or robbing) a Walmart or sporting goods store. For that matter, he'd get more rifles from robbing a sporting goods store, that are much better calibers for taking down supernaturals - the typical issued rifle for US police is an AR-15, which is basically an overpowered .22! The round they fire is a small to medium game round, that's actually illegal under many state animal cruelty laws to use on human-size animals. He'd be far better off geting a semi-automatic deer rifle or big game rifle from a sporting goods store. A .30-06 or .308 magnum beats the hell out of .223 Remington any day of the week for hunting large, tough predators. And some stores stock Barretts and .50 BMG!

One funny thing about US police, European police are much more heavily armed than US police are, at least for firearms units.
 
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Yeah the whole going to the precinct for gunz n' shit doesnt really make sense. I guess the body armor could work, but at that point whatevers hitting you would probably go through you and the armor. I'm just chalking this all up to him not thinking.
 
Inquiring Mind said:
And in any case, police are thinking beings in a way that a stray dog, for example, is not, and there's something to be said for not inflicting unnecessary cruelty on thinking beings even if they are bad people.
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I mean, I can agree on that, but that wasn't what was said: what was said was that there were more ethical targets, implying that the action would be more acceptable if it was targeting someone else. Turning someone into a meat suit is objectively a horrifying thing to do to anyone and I'm against it on principle, but I object to the implication that there are a number of more ethical targets for someone who did decide to do that.

Regarding your point about potential differences in the police, frankly, I'm not feeling charitable enough about the police to assume that maybe this version isn't a flaming dumpster fire, given that (presumably) history happened in Dresdenverse mostly the same way it did IRL but with more magic; otherwise I'd find it extremely implausible that Chicago still exists in a recognizable form. I don't actually know anything about Dresdenverse, to be honest, so it's possible that it actually is notably different from real life, in which case I'm willing to withhold further judgement, but based on what I know, I see no reason to believe they're any better. Feel free to correct me if you know something that contradicts these assumptions.
 
Idolatrine said:
Couldn't have said it any better myself. Thank you for that, voice in someone else's head.
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Why thank you, presumably the only voice in your head.

For the record, I'm not kidding about that. I'm a tulpa. I mean, I was sort of kidding; we tend to think of it as our head these days, even if my host has over two decades more experience in it than I do. I'm fine with respectful questions but would rather not derail the thread for it too much, so the end of the thread I linked is probably a good place for anything substantial. Or folks can message me if they prefer.
Crimson Doom said:
I mean, I can agree on that, but that wasn't what was said: what was said was that there were more ethical targets, implying that the action would be more acceptable if it was targeting someone else. Turning someone into a meat suit is objectively a horrifying thing to do to anyone and I'm against it on principle, but I object to the implication that there are a number of more ethical targets for someone who did decide to do that.

Regarding your point about potential differences in the police, frankly, I'm not feeling charitable enough about the police to assume that maybe this version isn't a flaming dumpster fire, given that (presumably) history happened in Dresdenverse mostly the same way it did IRL but with more magic; otherwise I'd find it extremely implausible that Chicago still exists in a recognizable form. I don't actually know anything about Dresdenverse, to be honest, so it's possible that it actually is notably different from real life, in which case I'm willing to withhold further judgement, but based on what I know, I see no reason to believe they're any better. Feel free to correct me if you know something that contradicts these assumptions.
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You misread my post. Re: more ethical targets: notice the specific mention of a stray dog as an alternative? There's your more ethical target. Re: the other bit: I wasn't suggesting the cops were better in universe, I was suggesting that Hiver's self-insert seems to think better of them than you or I do and is unlikely to act on a view of the police that he has shown every sign of not sharing.
 
Inquiring Mind said:
Re: more ethical targets: notice the specific mention of a stray dog as an alternative? There's your more ethical target.
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No the fuck it isn't. Dogs can experience pain just as much as we can and have even less capacity to defend themselves against that than a human would. Animals have just as much right to not be turned into horrifying meat suits as we do, and out of the two species, humans are the ones who can comprehend morality well enough to do something wrong enough to be a more acceptable victim.

Inquiring Mind said:
I was suggesting that Hiver's self-insert seems to think better of them than you or I do and is unlikely to act on a view of the police that he has shown every sign of not sharing.
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That does seem like a more reasonable position to take, I suppose. Regardless of whether there are more acceptable targets, if Saint doesn't think that way he's still more likely to pick someone else if he did decide to wear someone's flesh like a mech suit.

...that being said, we have perhaps wandered off-topic since Saint almost certainly isn't planning on turning this guy into a meat suit.
 
Gindjurra said:
Even a SWAT armory isn't going to have the sort of weapons any military carries. The battle rifle supervisors typically have is semi-automatic not select-fire, any grenade launchers they have will only have smoke, tear gas and pepper loads and hand grenades will be flash-bangs at most. There won't be any demolition charges at all.

The precincts won't have a SWAT armory, that's downtown at police HQ. What he's going to get from the precinct armory is exactly what he already took off that cop he captured if the guy is a supervisor. If the guy isn't a supervisor, he'll get what he took off the cop plus smoke and flash-bang hand grenades and a couple of semi-automatic battle rifles. Sure, there will be spare ammo, but not more than a week's worth for the officers stationed there and most of it will be handgun ammo - maybe a few shotgun doorbuster rounds, but with Taziel's boost he can take down a door better than those anyway.

He would get more rifle and shotgun ammo from buying it at (or robbing) a Walmart or sporting goods store. For that matter, he'd get more rifles from robbing a sporting goods store, that are much better calibers for taking down supernaturals - the typical issued rifle for US police is an AR-15, which is basically an overpowered .22! The round they fire is a small to medium game round, that's actually illegal under many state animal cruelty laws to use on human-size animals. He'd be far better off geting a semi-automatic deer rifle or big game rifle from a sporting goods store. A .30-06 or .308 magnum beats the hell out of .223 Remington any day of the week for hunting large, tough predators. And some stores stock Barretts and .50 BMG!

One funny thing about US police, European police are much more heavily armed than US police are, at least for firearms units.
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Pretty much.

If he was really dead set on breaking in somewhere for military gear, he probably should have gone after a national guard depot.
 
Vaermina said:
Pretty much.

If he was really dead set on breaking in somewhere for military gear, he probably should have gone after a national guard depot.
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Hate to point this out, but remember when a werewolf went Terminator on the police department and the police, specifically SI, pulled out heavy munitions? Like grenades and other situational useful high caliber gear? Karen is depicted as having access to some very not standard battle-rattle, and unless my memory fails me, that's the MO for her department. The reason this is a bad idea isn't because Saint's going after a police armory, it's because he's fit to rob Murphy, piss off Dresden, then show up to crash a party with stolen gear.
 
The_provalone said:
Hate to point this out, but remember when a werewolf went Terminator on the police department and the police, specifically SI, pulled out heavy munitions? Like grenades and other situational useful high caliber gear? Karen is depicted as having access to some very not standard battle-rattle, and unless my memory fails me, that's the MO for her department. The reason this is a bad idea isn't because Saint's going after a police armory, it's because he's fit to rob Murphy, piss off Dresden, then show up to crash a party with stolen gear.
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That's SI specifically, which are basically anti-demon SWAT. They're overwhelmed a lot of the time, but they're still the most dangerous part of the police, to Saint.

Not dangerous in that they might beat him in a fight. Dangerous in that they might do well enough to force some unsavory choices, and of course doing this will put him squarely against Dresden. I can't help but wonder if this is the point.
 
I... I am a bit confused. Where does it imply that he's using the officer as a meat suit?
Isn't he just shapeshifting into him or something? And he needs constant bodily contact and his wakefulness due to some kind of limitation inherent to the technique?
 
Baughn said:
That's SI specifically, which are basically anti-demon SWAT. They're overwhelmed a lot of the time, but they're still the most dangerous part of the police, to Saint.

Not dangerous in that they might beat him in a fight. Dangerous in that they might do well enough to force some unsavory choices, and of course doing this will put him squarely against Dresden. I can't help but wonder if this is the point.
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They are also based out of a completely different precinct.
 
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  • Threadmarks
    • "Hey, Johansen. You're back early?" The guy by the counter said as I walked in through the doors, moving past a cop dragging in a guy in a hoodie and handcuffs.

    Nodding, I rubbed my eyes, "Forgot some stuff."

    He nodded, "Better get it and get to bed, you have another shift tomorrow night, remember?"

    "…Don't remind me," I grumbled and walked past and through the double doors further into the station.

    So far so good. Seems like the voice is working out well, Taz.

    "Of course it does," Taziel said a bit smugly as she walked along next to me, "You forget who I am," she said and shifted to the side as if to allow one of the cops by. I gave him a nod and walked on like I owned the place.

    Nobody here but us chickens.

    Not forget, angel girl. Just a lot riding on this one.

    "Mmm… true that," she agreed and looked around, "Left."

    "You sure?"

    "No. Actually reading somebody's neural system like that isn't an exact science. But when you said, 'Path to weapons cage' he felt like it would be left after about this distance."

    But it could have been the next one?

    "But it could be completely wrong," She agreed with a shrug, "It's not a perfect system."

    Turning left, I walked down the stairs. Bullet proof glass, locked door. Rows of guns in racks inside.

    Cameras.

    Nothing to do to fix the cameras. Sorry Johansen, you'll be in some trouble after this but they won't be able to prove anything clearly. Maybe you'll end up in SI.

    It's for a good cause, I promise.

    Nobody inside the weapon cage, we were clear to move. How much time we had is the question. Need to move fast.

    Keypad and magnetic strip card reader.

    Reaching into the breast pocket of my uniform, I pulled out a card and looked it over before I closed my eyes and quickly slid it through the reader, quickly tapping in a code without thinking about it.

    Red light.

    "Try again, my host," Taziel said and moved up next to me, frowning at the card reader, "That may have been his ATM code for all we know."

    Sighing, I tried again. Four other numbers.

    Red light.

    We don't have time for this, Taz!

    "Once more?"

    Closing my eyes, I slid the card and tapped in a five number code before opening my eyes again.

    Red light.

    "Taz?"

    She scowled at the door and then nodded, "That's all I got from him. Dirty it is then."

    Nodding, I pocketed the card again and put my hand on the lock before unfolding my wings and sliding a pair of feathers in on each side of the bolt. I glanced around and then I closed them firmly but indomitable like a pair of jaws of life.

    There was a grinding sound followed by a firm snap.
    I didn't bother listening if somebody heard it, I just pushed the door open rushed inside and closing it behind me. It was a bit twisted but at a cursory look it would look closed.

    A quick look around and I grabbed a duffle bag before moving to find what I could. Stab armor goes into the bag, as does helmet, glasses… ooh, MP-5… or something similar enough.

    I would prefer something with a larger caliber for anti-demon work, but it'll work. Putting two of them into the duffle bag, I found some ammunition and magazines followed by flashbangs and smoke grenades. Boxes of rounds followed them.

    What else…

    No more time for shopping. I could use… there. That looks to be more or less in my real size. Grabbing a ballistic vest and accompanying harness I stuffed those in as well before closing the zipper and picking the bag up, heading for the exit.

    Taziel walked along, "Your heart rate is going up."

    Well, forgive me for being tense!

    She flashed me a quick smile and I felt my heart slow down to a steady beat. Shouldering the bag, I pushed the door closed behind me and gave it a good tug to make sure it was stuck in the frame before heading for the stairs.
    I turned the corner and headed for the exit with a tired but relaxed stride, rubbing my eyes again.

    "Johansen!"

    I looked back towards the woman walking towards me and I could just feel Taz actively keeping my adrenaline down, "Yeah?"

    "I thought you would have zonked out by now."

    I flashed her a smile, "So did I," and lifted the duffle, "Forgot some stuff. Normally would have taken like twenty minutes to get… weather is crazy today."

    "Yeah, tell me about it," she sighed and rolled her eyes, "I'm about to head out on patrol. That'll be fun."

    "Better you than me," I said with a grin, "Now if you excuse me, I'm going to go pass out."

    "Lucky fucker."

    Shaking my head, headed for the doors, shouldering the bag. Nobody said a word as I got into the car and pulled out of the lot.
     
  • Threadmarks
    • Hehehe, trust one thing; acting like you own the place and playing into social engineering gets you faaaar farther than it has any right to.

    Double so when you are a shapeshifter given advice by hyper intelligent pocket change.
     
    I've said it before and I'll say it again: The weakest point of any security system is the part that's made of meat. That said, our protagonist is something of an outside context problem for an otherwise mundane police station.
     
    All that for two guns, some ammo, and a bullet proof vest...

    I can't help but feel Saint's "risk vs reward" sensor may be broken...
     
    I wonder how far the shapeshifting can be pushed. It's probably a little late to mention this, but could he grow biological ballistic plates under his skin in important areas of his torso, spine, and head? Maybe take the material that composes the teeth of limpets as inspiration? How much does he care about looking human, anyway? He has wings after all, even if he hides them to blend in with the muggles. Just a reminder: Humans don't actually naturally have wings, even if a rather large percentage of the population wished that they did. (Read that as humor, please. Thank you.)

    I suspect that even Taziel would look at me funny if she could read my thoughts on how much value I place in looking human. I'm genuinely confused on a frequent basis, by how much most other humans seem to be attached to a human appearance. So I may have some difficulty gauging the average mindset of human characters in stories on this subject.

    Actually… What is Taziel's sense of aesthetics like? Does she like big muscles, or is she more into the big brained types? Something more obscure? I've been kind of acting under the assumption that she's actually some kind of inhuman alien eldrich thing that has learned to appreciate the company of humans. If her host had zero concerns for practicality, and complete ambivalence toward being either a hansom human or a hansom cuddlefish, which would Taziel want?
     
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