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Hell to Pay
- Thread starter Hiver
- Start date
That being said, there's a lot that can be accomplished just by knowing exactly where to apply power. Just like trying to move something with a lever, you can accomplish a whole lot more with the same power by knowing where to place the fulcrum.
Considering a Fallen Angel is basically all the power (and knowledge) you could reasonably need, the only real reason Saint+Taziel can't do magic at the level of a normal wizard is because Taziel doesn't want to. Just like a vanilla muggle human can set up a ritual to do magic without having a lick of it, all powered by an external entity, Saint could do the same and Taziel could power it - especially because Hellfire (and the Fallen in general) were introduced by saying just how much it powered up anyone who grabbed one (IIRC, I think it was said that a minor talent could rival Dresden in raw power with the coin). That is part of the temptation.
Now him not being able to do combat Evocation ala Morgan or Dresden is entirely reasonable, but not being able to do anything even with preparation is so suspicious that the only conclusion I have is that it's enemy action.
Was this word of Jim? Because I don't remember it. Given that it runs in families, magic being genetic seems far more likely. I always thought that some ancient humans got it on with supernaturals, and wacky magic genes means their descendants can still occasionally manifest magic.
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There's probably some elements of genetics, but there's also a major environmental factor - prenatal magic exposure is a bid deal for determining whether someone will have strong magical potential. IIRC it came up when Jim was explaining why Molly had Wizard-level talent but none of the other Carpenter kids did.
- Location
- Texas
Just being able to perfectly read the opponent would be enough to win at poker. Fallen can definitely facilitate that
It seems every time the topic of magic is brought up our character gets exponentially weaker in the subject. Before hand it was simply a matter of spending a decade or two to figure out and get okay at whatever he specializes in. Now it's "Not even in a thousand years could I do a measly firebolt". What about rituals and the like. I would think that with an all knowledgeable fallen angel would have some pretty potent stuff. Maybe she doesnt want him to use magic of any kind?
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
He could probably try to operate in the same vein as how Dresden himself tends to manage (at least, in the books I read, I drifted off before he turned into a Hellfire-slinging Winter Knight) - store up mojo in dedicated objects ahead of time so you don't need to draw on your own reserves. Mind you, that's probably going to require a hell of a lot more effort for Saint. Dresden is supposed to be not just an exceptionally potent wizard, but a wizard whose Paradigm (if you'll forgive the oMage-ism) leans heavily into direct, violent manifestations of power. Saint, meanwhile, is firmly in the 'petty dabbler' category. He can't just grab a silver bracelet with shield-shaped charms on it and make it into a forcefield generator, he has to go get D&D bullshit materials to make it out of, things which are already semi-magical in and of themselves and have orders of magnitude more symbolic 'weight' to them than the common metals Harry could get away with using.
Honestly, the smarter thing to do might be to take Harry's model a step further. Don't have a magical doohickey that lets you cast a spell, have a magical doohickey that does magic on your behalf. See if Taziel knows anything about how easy/hard it is to make magical items without having it be your dedicated magical niche. If that's not feasible, go around raiding ancient tombs and robbing supernatural potentates to get hold of items that someone already made.
If all else fails, start knocking on doors in the Nevernever and see if any svartalfar are taking commissions, or try to barter with Hephaestus for something cool. Dangerous, sure, but it could also pull double duty as prep work for the endgame of stopping the Powers That Be.
19
I watched the scene from the roof across the road. Cop cars had arrived before me which wasn't surprising considering I had to walk halfway across town to get here.
Crossing my arms, I frowned. Half the buildings had collapsed which wasn't unexpected considering how much energy had been thrown around.
Short blonde woman, short hair was standing outside by one of the cop cars, her hands in her pockets. She was looking like she was waiting for someone.
Karrin Murphy.
Rather cute to be honest.
"Bad move, My Host. She'd shoot you." Taziel teased, her arms around my waist, wings around us to keep the wind away, "And by she, I mean your little nature spirit."
'Likely,' I agreed as I watched a little multi coloured clown car of a beetle come to a halt close by and a tall man in a duster got out of it, a cup of coffee in hand.
Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden.
One of the ten most dangerous humans on the planet in most likelihood. That's without even counting in all the ways he would be able to claim more power if he really were motivated.
"Dark Hallow would give you the ability to really cast spells. Of course, the end result wouldn't really be worth it."
'No kidding. Still, this looks like it was what we thought it would be. The Nickelheads have Marcone. We know when we are now. More or less.'
"We do," Taz agreed with a sigh, "We should leave."
'A little longer.' I told her and shook my head, 'I want to see a bit more. Besides, where would we go?'
"We have the cash for a four star hotel for the next couple of weeks," she reminded me, "We could just stay out of everything until They leave town just to avoid running into them. We need time to get ready. We need… They have allies. We need them too."
'You really are going to go along with your Father's plan?' I asked, glancing at her where she rested her head against my shoulder.
Taziel frowned, "I'm hardly against the idea of murdering Anduriel. While I don't trust them, that is a plan I can get behind."
'But not now.'
"Not now," she agreed, "We aren't ready."
Everyone below on the street seemed to be clearing out. The storm was picking up too, snow whirling thick enough to obscure the view below.
Something shifted behind me and my hand slipped inside my jacket as I whirled in a single slash, my sword smoothly sliding out and going through the air without a sound.
The goatman let out a surprised gasp as he fell in two burning pieces, rolling off the roof onto the street below.
I frowned at the fairy, "Well, that's bad. Forgot about those fuckers. Time to get out of here before we get between them and Dresden again."
"Indeed. Hotel?"
'Sounds good,' I agreed and walked across the roof to jump down on the other side, spreading my wings with a powerful flap at the last moment, slowing down just enough to not make it too hard on my knees.
Snow whirled up all around at the wind from my wings as I stood up and folded them away again. I glanced back towards the other end of the alley before I started to walk in the general direction of downtown.
With some luck, we'd avoid any other Gruffs on the way. Especially moving away from Dresden, they would be following him.
I wasn't worried he wouldn't be able to handle them. I knew what would happen if I got involved, that's what got me into this situation in the first place.
Of course, if there was anything too objectionable I wouldn't be able to help myself, but in this case, everyone involved would be able to…
The Archive.
I stopped and closed my eyes. Son of a fucking bitch.
"She should be safe, My Host," Taziel said from next to me, "If everything goes as in the books…"
'And if it doesn't and she is infected by a Nickelhead?'
Taziel rolled her eyes, "We aren't a disease. But I agree, My Host. That would be bad. Apocalyptically bad, it would give Anduriel and his partner access to all human knowledge."
'Nuclear launch codes, how to make literal biblical plagues…'
"How to go through the Dark Hallow. How to become a minor or even major god."
I rubbed my forehead, "Oh shit, didn't even think of that one, she has Kemmlers books in her head," I sighed, "So we need to do something."
"I agree. We should write her a note," Taziel said with a nod, "Her protector is capable, he should be able to handle it from there. She is only vulnerable if she is separated from him and trapped without her magic."
I slowly nodded before I frowned, 'On the other hand…'
"Hmm? What are you thinking about?" Taziel asked as she shifted around to look up at me.
'We know where Nicodemus and his pet Angel will be,' I said, reaching to brush her hair out of her face, 'Where he will be under attack. Where there will be no Magic to even the playing field. Killing Anduriel may be more than we can accomplish. But I bet that if we were able to get him away from a compatible Host, it would slow him down a bit. Might not being able to kill him yet, but… if we kill Nicodemus, ganking future hosts would be easier. Can't do much if he is stuck as pocket change.'
The predatory grin spreading over her face was outright beautiful.
Crossing my arms, I frowned. Half the buildings had collapsed which wasn't unexpected considering how much energy had been thrown around.
Short blonde woman, short hair was standing outside by one of the cop cars, her hands in her pockets. She was looking like she was waiting for someone.
Karrin Murphy.
Rather cute to be honest.
"Bad move, My Host. She'd shoot you." Taziel teased, her arms around my waist, wings around us to keep the wind away, "And by she, I mean your little nature spirit."
'Likely,' I agreed as I watched a little multi coloured clown car of a beetle come to a halt close by and a tall man in a duster got out of it, a cup of coffee in hand.
Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden.
One of the ten most dangerous humans on the planet in most likelihood. That's without even counting in all the ways he would be able to claim more power if he really were motivated.
"Dark Hallow would give you the ability to really cast spells. Of course, the end result wouldn't really be worth it."
'No kidding. Still, this looks like it was what we thought it would be. The Nickelheads have Marcone. We know when we are now. More or less.'
"We do," Taz agreed with a sigh, "We should leave."
'A little longer.' I told her and shook my head, 'I want to see a bit more. Besides, where would we go?'
"We have the cash for a four star hotel for the next couple of weeks," she reminded me, "We could just stay out of everything until They leave town just to avoid running into them. We need time to get ready. We need… They have allies. We need them too."
'You really are going to go along with your Father's plan?' I asked, glancing at her where she rested her head against my shoulder.
Taziel frowned, "I'm hardly against the idea of murdering Anduriel. While I don't trust them, that is a plan I can get behind."
'But not now.'
"Not now," she agreed, "We aren't ready."
Everyone below on the street seemed to be clearing out. The storm was picking up too, snow whirling thick enough to obscure the view below.
Something shifted behind me and my hand slipped inside my jacket as I whirled in a single slash, my sword smoothly sliding out and going through the air without a sound.
The goatman let out a surprised gasp as he fell in two burning pieces, rolling off the roof onto the street below.
I frowned at the fairy, "Well, that's bad. Forgot about those fuckers. Time to get out of here before we get between them and Dresden again."
"Indeed. Hotel?"
'Sounds good,' I agreed and walked across the roof to jump down on the other side, spreading my wings with a powerful flap at the last moment, slowing down just enough to not make it too hard on my knees.
Snow whirled up all around at the wind from my wings as I stood up and folded them away again. I glanced back towards the other end of the alley before I started to walk in the general direction of downtown.
With some luck, we'd avoid any other Gruffs on the way. Especially moving away from Dresden, they would be following him.
I wasn't worried he wouldn't be able to handle them. I knew what would happen if I got involved, that's what got me into this situation in the first place.
Of course, if there was anything too objectionable I wouldn't be able to help myself, but in this case, everyone involved would be able to…
The Archive.
I stopped and closed my eyes. Son of a fucking bitch.
"She should be safe, My Host," Taziel said from next to me, "If everything goes as in the books…"
'And if it doesn't and she is infected by a Nickelhead?'
Taziel rolled her eyes, "We aren't a disease. But I agree, My Host. That would be bad. Apocalyptically bad, it would give Anduriel and his partner access to all human knowledge."
'Nuclear launch codes, how to make literal biblical plagues…'
"How to go through the Dark Hallow. How to become a minor or even major god."
I rubbed my forehead, "Oh shit, didn't even think of that one, she has Kemmlers books in her head," I sighed, "So we need to do something."
"I agree. We should write her a note," Taziel said with a nod, "Her protector is capable, he should be able to handle it from there. She is only vulnerable if she is separated from him and trapped without her magic."
I slowly nodded before I frowned, 'On the other hand…'
"Hmm? What are you thinking about?" Taziel asked as she shifted around to look up at me.
'We know where Nicodemus and his pet Angel will be,' I said, reaching to brush her hair out of her face, 'Where he will be under attack. Where there will be no Magic to even the playing field. Killing Anduriel may be more than we can accomplish. But I bet that if we were able to get him away from a compatible Host, it would slow him down a bit. Might not being able to kill him yet, but… if we kill Nicodemus, ganking future hosts would be easier. Can't do much if he is stuck as pocket change.'
The predatory grin spreading over her face was outright beautiful.
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- Location
- Oblivion
Um... Hiver... There was a giant blizzard going on at this point in timeline...
I would say this was a lie, but it's probably just him having a really really bad memory about the books and her relying on that memory to even know about the Dark Hollow magic.
Where is this place that there's no magic?
Drenghul
The terror that watches in darkness
- Location
- Hell... I mean Florida
Maybe he's misremembering and it's gonna bite him in the ass? I can't recall that either and it's been a few years since I read the books so it wouldn't surprise me if he's setting his character up for nasty surprises.Um... Hiver... There was a giant blizzard going on at this point in timeline...
I would say this was a lie, but it's probably just him having a really really bad memory about the books and her relying on that memory to even know about the Dark Hollow magic.
Where is this place that there's no magic?
The trap they built for the Archive was isolated from magic at large - not quite complete antimagic but more of a "no MP regen allowed, work with what you already had" zone. That's probably close enough, since it means even casters who were forewarned and gathered power ahead of time could only manage a small number of spells before running dry. (Unless they're total bullshit like Ivy, but even then she ran out of gas in like 5 minutes)Where is this place that there's no magic?
The problem, of course, is that Hiver is planning on getting involved in a cage match where Nicodemus/Anduriel will have something like a dozen buddies along - even in the best case with the Archive, her bodyguard, and Dresden kicking around offing Nicodemus will be easier said than done.
- Location
- Oblivion
He was talking about the Aquarium Pentagram?
That's like the king of bad idea's since it was the Denarians trap and they were loaded for bear.
- Location
- Oblivion
The Angel sword is no different then Kincade's gun in that it's something that can potentially one shot any Denarian not named Nicodemus.
The Aquarium has enough magic in it for them to cast dozens of high level spells.
The Denarians still have access to their Hellfire, a skill Saint never learned since it's directly linked to magic.
Nicodemus still has his magic items.
And worst of all, Nicodemus is the next best thing to immortal, as in, Saint could whack him all day with that sword he's so proud of to absolutely no harm.
Meaning the only thing he really has going for him here is surprise.
And surprise works both ways, because since this is a linchpin event, he could actually end up making things worse.
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Citation, as usual, needed.
- Location
- Oblivion
It's a major plot point about the character...
Nicodemus wears a magic noose, that, among other powers, makes him effectively invulnerable to harm to anything but the noose itself.
What's worse, there's been no mention of it, so this is apparently one of the many bits Saint has forgot.
Grey Rook
Genuine Nerd
- Location
- The Quantum Foam
Funnily enough, I distinctly remember that the noose is also his sole weakness. Pin him down, strangle him with it, and he'll die permanently. Then you'll just have to worry about Anduriel. More easily said than done, yes, but theoretically possible.
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
Actually... some trivia about hangings? The reason they had people measuring the rope for the noose was because there's a "Goldilocks zone" of optimal noose length. If the drop isn't long enough, there isn't enough force to snap the subject's neck, and they instead slowly asphyxiate.
If the drop is too long, however, the sudden tightening of the noose around the neck and the sudden, catastrophic deceleration of the body it's attached to will pop the poor bastard's head clean off like a champagne cork.
This might well mean that you could kill Nicodemus for good by 'just' yanking on the Noose hard enough that it rips right through his neck. Not really viable for humans (unless you, I dunno, somehow hitch the Noose to the back of a racecar and floor it), but for a Dresden-tier warmage using telekinesis or the brawnier sort of nonhuman?
SAINT WINS: FATALITY!
So your claim is that an angel's sword will do nothing to Nicodemus and to back that up you use a quote from Dresden saying he's "more or less invulnerable" to everything but the noose.
I was going to go into the assumptions you're making here but I think I'll just leave it at the important one (i.e. the one I took issue with to begin with) which is that 'everything' includes Angel swords and, more specifically, the sword Saint has.
Your quote works if and only if we make a bit of an assumption about what Dresden means there and then assume that he's entirely correct.
Look, I know you don't exactly get much practice giving citations so I do want to thank you for trying and I'll admit that it's actually fairly decent in that it shows where you got that idea but as things stand, you could have saved a bunch of time by just editing your post to something like
Drenghul
The terror that watches in darkness
- Location
- Hell... I mean Florida
I don't recall the swords of the cross taking him down those should be up there with Saint's sword
Modus_Tollens
SCREAMING AT THE APOCALYPSE
- Location
- ALSO SCREAMING.
Somewhat different purposes. Its one thing to have a weapon of salvation and its another to have a weapon designed for the War in Heaven. Higher tier angels are capable of accidentally creating quasars if they cut loose and this thing was created to one hit kill them. Now, granted, the wielder is not an unbound angel and so would not be using it to its full capacity but neither is a Denarian a proper angel themselves. Not the fallen and definitely not the host.
A sword of the cross is designed to be used within the world. A sword of the War in Heaven is designed to be the vessel of more divine wrath than was found in the entirety of the Old Testament.
The noose might offer a defense in that it may have been a curse of God, just like the mark of Cain. An instrument of God can not act against God's will, even if that will is... outdated. Or it might simply be ablative armor, taking one stroke of the sword for Little Nicky but not the second.
Though... hell. The worst case possibility would be if Nick got a hold of the blade himself. Bad End indeed.
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- Location
- Oblivion
You seem to have forgotten that the Swords of the Cross channel the collective Faith/Hope/Love of humanity.
Which, mystically speaking, make them the most powerful weapons in existence.
Modus_Tollens
SCREAMING AT THE APOCALYPSE
- Location
- ALSO SCREAMING.
Eh. They are certainly powerful, though 'humanity' is fairly small in scope when you consider the raw weight of the cosmos, but faith-hope-love is not exactly a material optimized for killing.
I wouldn't try to stab something cosmic level with it.
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Nicodemus' noose is kinda weird. For obvious reasons, there hasn't been any point in canon where someone has managed to pin him down and whale away on him with a variety of killing implements to see what happens (the noose is basically just the in-universe explanation for a recurring villain's plot armor). There has been explicit mention of the noose being the only thing that poses a real threat that could kill him (I don't remember the exact wording of that scene, but both characters take the act of trying to strangle him/threat of being strangled with the noose much more seriously than guns/swords (regular, enchanted, and Cross)/regular magic is taken at other points.
IIRC, there has also been other points where Nicodemus takes cuts/scrapes/other minor wounds from other stuff, so I imagine the noose is much less a thing of granting invulnerability so much as it is just a mystical "not dead yet" that gets applied to every non-noose-based injury he takes. He can be hurt, possibly quite badly even (depending on author's interpretation), but not killed without someone using the noose against him.
They're also gimped, in the sense that the Swords of the Cross never do more than even the playing field - they never provide a combat advantage over an enemy that you'd expect from a mystically powerful tool, capping out at man with sword vs unarmed man levels of advantage in a fight. Assuming, of course, that they're being wielded in the correct way that supports the concept of Faith/Hope/Love in all cases - things change if the wielder isn't in the right mindset.
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- Location
- Oblivion
This is Dresden Files not Dragonball, the mystic weight of collective humanity is very possibly the greatest power in the setting.
Also I can't help but think you are thinking of those things in the biblical sense instead of the conceptual sense.
To quote Skin Games