Hell to Pay

[me.me.here]

He thinks he bears the coin willingly.

However both he and we have no idea how much Taziel has screwed with his mind.

Click to shrink...

No, Fallen don't work like that. You can't fake free will - overriding someone's free will always causes mental damage, and that damage can't be fixed without removing the source of the trauma. Tricking someone into thinking they haven't suffered that sort of mental damage doesn't really work, because any time a thought or feeling runs into the mental damage it comes out different than if there wasn't any damage - so there has to be another mindwipe/trick/excuse for that difference, which often causes more mental damage, and it spirals rapidly to the mind completely breaking or the excuse/trick failing.

There are only two options for Fallen and their Denarian hosts. The first is that the Fallen convinces the host to pick up the coin and play along. They can lie and delude and even threaten, but no matter how they do it it's still the host deciding of their own free will to play along. The only other option for a Denarian is what we've seen with Magog and his like where the host is crucified on imaginary stakes of agony to prevent them from exercising their free will while Magog puppets the body around.

Saint hasn't exhibited any signs of having suffered mental trauma from being in a cage (or from being tricked into thinking he's not in a cage), which means he's bearing the coin of his own free will. Period.

 

[BronzeTongue]

The problem with assuming that Taziel was brainwashing him for ages has always been that.. it takes way too much effort for what is essentially a weaksauce un-talented guy who for a good chunk of the first storyline uber-paranoid about her. Fundamentally, sticking with him was dumb and a waste of time if she is evil. He did not have the raw power worth seducing, his meta-knowledge was hers as soon as he picked up the coin, and he was too paranoid to easily manipulate.

It would be waayyy more efficient to let him get run over by a car and then get picked up by either a random teenager if she wants an easily seduced target, or a powerful magician if she wants someone who is actually worth working through slowly.

It wasn't until quite a good chunk into the story that he actually got enough power and connections to be worth keeping around.

Click to shrink...

This is assuming that she always makes the most rational choice and that there are no other factors she's aware of that Saint isn't for her to stick around.

Angels are pretty alien in their thought processes and views, and fallen angels are all in some way mad or damaged. The most powerful ones tend to be more stable and well put together, but they aren't exempt from this.

She could just be making irrational decisions based on a desire for acceptance from someone who had some prior knowledge of what she was. Having some sort of fixation on a particular relationship dynamic with her hosts could fit in with the many psychological issues the fallen exhibit at one level or another and would explain her motive to stay so far.

 

[Modus_Tollens]

Being completely realistic, Saint had hit his level cap in Buffy, because short of getting a bunch of mages to bind an Old One to his soul, there wasn't any way left to quickly increase his power there.

Click to shrink...

There are artifacts and enchantments. The man has dick all for gear right now. That makes the Doom Slayer sad.

There is spellcraft. While Saint is stated to be outright pedestrian in terms of raw magical power, he is also stated as being able to reach near Wizard grade within a narrow focus should he find and hone it sufficiently. And even that is somewhat undermined by the fact that, if you can access dimensions with accelerated time flows, and are functionally immortal, even a minimally capable practitioner can grind for a few centuries. It might not be sufficient to deal with Nick and Co, or even just continuing the War in Heaven if that was partially bullshit, but it would sure as hell help.

There are assets. Just as he acquires tools, he can acquire people and organizations. He was eying Wolfram and Hart, he was eying the scoobies, he was eying a defense initiative within the US Government. It would be a hard climb, but on the time scales Denarians work on (and knowing and exploiting certain key disasters) I could see it happening. He had it in him to become the big bad, only with good publicity in certain circles. He probably could acquire Illyria, even if using her would invoke the full might of the Oblivion War against him. Old One and all.

There were a lot of low hanging fruit that they just never got to pick. There was never time. The instant that it looks like there might be, bam, sabotage from on high.

 

[Vaermina]

This is assuming that she always makes the most rational choice and that there are no other factors she's aware of that Saint isn't for her to stick around.

Angels are pretty alien in their thought processes and views, and fallen angels are all in some way mad or damaged. The most powerful ones tend to be more stable and well put together, but they aren't exempt from this.

She could just be making irrational decisions based on a desire for acceptance from someone who had some prior knowledge of what she was. Having some sort of fixation on a particular relationship dynamic with her hosts could fit in with the many psychological issues the fallen exhibit at one level or another and would explain her motive to stay so far.

Click to shrink...

It's also not taking into account her nature.

Which, given what we know about how Fallen natures work, would probably be something like causing sickness.

There are artifacts and enchantments. The man has dick all for gear right now. That makes the Doom Slayer sad.

There is spellcraft. While Saint is stated to be outright pedestrian in terms of raw magical power, he is also stated as being able to reach near Wizard grade within a narrow focus should he find and hone it sufficiently. And even that is somewhat undermined by the fact that, if you can access dimensions with accelerated time flows, and are functionally immortal, even a minimally capable practitioner can grind for a few centuries. It might not be sufficient to deal with Nick and Co, or even just continuing the War in Heaven if that was partially bullshit, but it would sure as hell help.

There are assets. Just as he acquires tools, he can acquire people and organizations. He was eying Wolfram and Hart, he was eying the scoobies, he was eying a defense initiative withing the US Government. It would be a hard climb, but on the time scales Denarians work on (and knowing and exploiting certain key disasters) I could see it happening. He had it in him to become the big bad, only with good publicity in certain circles. He probably could acquire Illyria, even if using her would invoke the full might of the Oblivion War against him. Old One and all.

There were a lot of low hanging fruit that they just never got to pick. There was never time. The instant that it looks like there might be, bam, sabotage from on high.

Click to shrink...

There are those things he could get his hands on in Dresden Files.

Not so much Buffy.

In fact, out of all the Buffy artifacts, the only one I can think of that he could actually use which would be of even minor use is the Glove of Myhnegon. Everything else of note has conditions for their use that, as an evil aligned human, he doesn't really meet.

 

[BronzeTongue]

There are those things he could get his hands on in Dresden Files.

Not so much Buffy.

In fact, out of all the Buffy artifacts, the only one I can think of that he could actually use which would be of even minor use is the Glove of Myhnegon. Everything else of note has conditions for their use that, as an evil aligned human, he doesn't really meet.

Click to shrink...

The Dresden Files as a series isn't really big on portable magic items. Most of what we see are props for practitioners to use to focus their own workings and have no inherent power. Some things - like the silver swords of the Wardens - are enchanted, but they're the work of an Elder Council member with a relatively rare focus. We can see that in the way the White Council loses the ability to produce an iconic element of their law enforcement and military kit during a period of significant conflict and can't find any combination of people to take up the job.

He could learn how to cast Dresden style magic and craft focuses to facilitate it, but actual magic items seem to be more common in BtVS. Perhaps not much more, but we rarely see any magical items that aren't large scale things fixed to a location, the work of a seriously rare class of high powered wizard, or outright artifacts like the Swords of the Cross and the noose that Nicodemus wears.

 

[Modus_Tollens]

I mean, really, a good set of Enochian Protection Runes would have been really goddamn useful something like fifty times by now. And it helps that we happen to have someone on site for whom Enochian is their first language. That mass of bullshit was probably one more remnant of the War in Heaven, just like the sword.

Buffy has its fair share of heavy duty gamebreakers.

 

[Gindjurra]

He probably doesn't count as something from the Outer Gates but that is probably the only sin he isn't radiating.

Click to shrink...

No, he just vacations there against his will.

There are over a hundred Michael Carpenters in Chicago.

Click to shrink...

Any of them that live in an apartment are ruled out. So are any that live in a place too small to raise a family in. Any of them too young to have a teenage daughter are ruled out. Any of them not married are ruled out - marriages are public records, and his wife's name is known.

From over a hundred down to just one.

Yet we only have Taziel's word for that, and the Saint we're looking at right now doesn't seem all that weaksauce.

Click to shrink...

At some point you have to take perceived reality at face value. Doing anything else leaves you fit for nothing but a straitjacket. For example - can you prove that you are not a brain in a jar being fed artificial sensory stimuli?

 

[Vaermina]

Any of them that live in an apartment are ruled out. So are any that live in a place too small to raise a family in. Any of them too young to have a teenage daughter are ruled out. Any of them not married are ruled out - marriages are public records, and his wife's name is known.

From over a hundred down to just one.

Click to shrink...

Remember this is the 1990s, that sort of information wasn't exactly easy to get in those days.

 

[Heaven Canceler]

Yet we only have Taziel's word for that, and the Saint we're looking at right now doesn't seem all that weaksauce.

Click to shrink...

He is still weaksauce though? Just not bottom of the barrel anymore...

Like sure he can fight small-time vampires easy peasy and probably slaughter his ways through soldiers.

But that is after he got training in monster hunting, got the memories of a legendary demon hunter implanted into his head and has been in hell for who knows how many years.

And he still sucks at magic defenses and while he is good at slaughtering mooks that is not very impressive overall. And that is after a series of lucky and fortunate events that happened just in the right way so as to work out..

I mean, are you seriously saying that Taziel planned out everything, knew that years down the line he would have a powerful Kitsune girlfriend, connections to all sorts of people and have grown to kinda acceptable power levels. Then get stuck in hell for who knows how long to get into "decently powerful" territory? i.e. a decent option, but not really any kind of heavy hitter.

An omniscient narrator's perspective would give us a fighting chance of judging Taziel, but as readers we don't even have that. There's no way I can think of to be sure what's really going on. None at all.

Click to shrink...

I am honest, this nonsense of Taziel mind-twisting Hiver-SI has always been nonsense even beyond the obvious waste of time it is. It goes against the basics of what we know of Fallen, that they want either full on allies or puppets on strings. We have never seen any example of them doing anything like faking someone's entire life, mostly because that would have been really convenient when Lash was dealing with Harry. As mentioned by @me.me.here, the only example we have of someone who has been brainwashed is someone full on jailed inside their mind and tortured. Like seriously, the only examle I have heard of Lash tricking Harry was some case of her faking being a librarian, and he specifically could look through her illusions with some effort.

Hell, we actually have an example of a Fallen Host laying down their coin and surrendering of their own free will! If the Fallen can so easily twist people's perceptions of reality, that would never happen because the Denarian hosts would only hear death threats.

Edit: More than that, it goes against the narrative, writing countless updates developing characters only to go lolnope at the end would be incredibly disatisfying and leave so many questions hanging that would need to be answered. Is Aiko real? Has their relationship happened? Was hell real? Did Saint actually experience his training with the crew, did he ever even meet Buffy. Is he even in Buffy-verse or is thsi just an elaborate TV show for him to live through? Its nonsense.

This is assuming that she always makes the most rational choice and that there are no other factors she's aware of that Saint isn't for her to stick around.

Angels are pretty alien in their thought processes and views, and fallen angels are all in some way mad or damaged. The most powerful ones tend to be more stable and well put together, but they aren't exempt from this.

She could just be making irrational decisions based on a desire for acceptance from someone who had some prior knowledge of what she was. Having some sort of fixation on a particular relationship dynamic with her hosts could fit in with the many psychological issues the fallen exhibit at one level or another and would explain her motive to stay so far.

Click to shrink...

It's also not taking into account her nature.

Which, given what we know about how Fallen natures work, would probably be something like causing sickness.

Click to shrink...

I mean yeah, if we conclude that she has some irrational out-of our knowledge or nature related reasons to stick with the random guy who has nothing useful and is super paranoid of her then we can conclude that it makes sense... We may as well conclude that she is the one friendly angel who just wants to be friends with everyone, give hugs to little children and make the ouchy's go away.

I mean, we are literally just making shit up in this case, stuff we have no idea about. I mean seriously, Taz is how many billion years old? The idea that she has never picked up an innocent person whom she could befriend, play the pure Fallen Angel with and satisfy any urges for being seen as the good guy who just wants to heal people with is ridiculous. Even assuming that a ancient being like that would even have such urges in the first place.

About that nature of spreading sicknesses... is that stuff from the main series? Because that sounds like a.) something we would have heared of for sure since it is a big deal, but I have seen no mention of that from any discussion on the Dresden Files series b.) go against the fundamental reason why they even fell in the first place, because they wanted the free will to do whatever they want, whether that be good or evil or whatever else.

Angels getting to use free will was the entire point of them falling. If they are stuck following some kind of nature ingrained into them, there was literally no point to them falling at all.

 

[Gindjurra]

Remember this is the 1990s, that sort of information wasn't exactly easy to get in those days.

Click to shrink...

Harry Dresden could do it in a day, without magic. And he's not actually all that good as a PI without his magic.

As Taz says, money is easy to get. Get some, hire a PI, done. Most of it you wouldn't even need a PI for, just go to city hall and look up public archives, then cross reference a phone book, a map of Chicago and make a few phone calls, including to the phone company's information line.

 

[finbikkifin]

Is Aiko real? Has their relationship happened? Was hell real? Did Saint actually experience his training with the crew, did he ever even meet Buffy. Is he even in Buffy-verse or is thsi just an elaborate TV show for him to live through?

Click to shrink...

It's a simulated early-life/training environment for a new AI, and something has gone very, very wrong.

 

[Burned_Cookie]

It's a simulated early-life/training environment for a new AI, and something has gone very, very wrong.

Click to shrink...

Yes. The simulation was taken over by a coin.


Or maybe Saint is the simulation and all of this is an elaborate prison für Taz.

 

[Hiver]

The cold wind whipped past and I put my hands into my jacket. Not that the cold bothered me, Taziel made sure of that.

It was dark out, the windows of the house lighting up the snow outside. I felt like a Dickens character.

'This is a bad plan.'

Taziel appeared next to me, a pair of wings raised against the wind to keep it away from me, "If you have a better one, My Host, I'm all ears."

'You know there isn't. Don't mean that this isn't a bad idea.'

"Never said it wasn't. Just that it was the best we had,' she sighed and crossed her arms as the wind pressed the thin dress against her.

Things just always go so well for me.

Fucking hell.

'Well, let's get this over with,' I sighed and then crossed the street, walking up to the fence. The closer I got, the more I could feel the… impossibly calm peace almost humming. You could almost hear it.

Stopping just by the fence, Taziel opened her eyes and the scene changed. No longer was it empty, straight in front of me was an Angel. Wearing white robes, carrying a sword I very clearly recognized the model of.

I had the exact same one.

He was bald, dark skinned and was paying attention to me in a passive but firm way. The same kind of look a cop gave to a punk with a knife walking into a store.

"Hello," I said and looked up at him. A few inches taller than me, "Need to talk to you."

No movement, no reaction. He just looked at me passively.

"Hello?"

Nothing. Fucking fine.

'Taz, you mind? I think this is something you need to handle?' I said quietly before I frowned at him, "Ignoring the mortal? This is discrimination you know. I could sue."

Taziel's image flashed back into view next to me, "Sandalphon, you could at least talk to him, Brother. We wish your charges no harm, we want to leave this place. Send us away."

No movement, no reaction other than a faint sneer on his lips.

'This isn't working, is it?'

Taziel scowled, glancing at me before she turned back to him, "You could at least say hi. I saved you once, remember?"

No reaction.

She scowled at him, "Arsehole," and folded her wings before looking at me, "You're right. There is no way this will work."

"Told you," I said and then reached towards the fence.

That got a reaction. His eyes flicking down to my eyes, otherwise nothing.

"Oh get off it," I said and put my hand back into my pocket, "I know you know that I have no intention of hurting anyone inside. You can't touch me. Mortal, remember? As long as Taz isn't in control, you can't do dick."

"Do you have to mock him, My Host,"

"Not really, but… I really want to?"

Taziel sighed and crossed her arms beneath her breasts as she looked up at me, "Let's get out of here and find somewhere warm. I tire of this cold."

"Hello," A voice said, and I looked up to see a man carrying a pair of bags of trash. Tall with a slight beard, wearing jeans and a T-shirt.

Taziel looked at him and he shone with a quiet power. Michael Carpenter. It couldn't be anyone else.

"Hello," I answered.

'Taz, shouldn't you close your eyes?'

"There is little point, My Host. He has already seen us."

'Shit.'

Putting the trash into the can, he brushed his hands off and walked up to the gate, stopping to look at me, "I'm Michael."

"…I know. Kind of hard to miss you," I admitted, "So what now? No sword? Stabbystabby?"

"Do I need one?"

"Not here for you nor yours. Was here to talk to your friend here," I said and nodded towards the place where the Angel stood, "Don't seem like he wants to play along though. Sorry to bother you."

Michael frowned and looked to where I nodded to, "I see," he answered, "Mind if I ask a question? That sigil…"

"…Go ahead," I sighed.

"Who do you carry?" he asked, "We have identified or contained all but…" he started to say before he paused, "No…"

"Taziel," I confirmed with a nod.

"But it has not been seen for many hundreds of years," He said quietly, "Why are you here?"

I shrugged, "Already told you. We're trying to ask tall and boring for a favor, not that it worked out for us. Sorry for bothering you, sir Knight. Before you ask, I have no intention of causing any sort of trouble for anyone in this city or world in general. Let's just say that there is a reason why you've never run into Taziel, we don't make trouble for anyone. Just want to be left alone. "

Michael looked at me for a long silent moment before he unhooked the gate and walked out, past the protective line to stand before me.

No sword.

"Why?" I asked with a frown.

"Because you need someone to listen to what you want to say."

I frowned at him, "You don't have your sword, why would you risk yourself like this?"

"I have Faith."

"Faith may be a shield, but it's a bad one against blades or bullets," I said and crossed my arms, "You don't have your sword."

"No. Not with me. Do I need it?"

"…No. No, you don't. I already told you, I don't intend to hurt you or yours."

He nodded, "Then I don't. The purpose of the Knights isn't to defeat the carriers of the Fallen. It's to save you."

"Don't need saving."

Michael shook his head, "They lie you know. Change you."

"Maybe," I agreed as I nodded, "But she has never lied to me. Over two hundred years, I have never caught her lying to me. Not even once. She kept me safe. Manipulated a couple of times, yes, but usually for a very good reason in the end. And she kept me sane, as sane as possible while I lived through things that would turn anyone crazy."

"I see."

"I think I'll take my leave now, Mister Carpenter. If we are lucky, we'll never see each other again."

"Wait," He said and walked back inside. A couple of moments later he returned with a travel mug. He handed it over, "My wife made soup. You looked cold."

I stared at the container in my hand in surprise, "Thank you."

"You never told me your name."

"…Saint. I have been called Saint."

Michael looked surprised, "That seems a bit pretentious."

"Didn't pick it," I said and turned to walk away before I looked back at him, "Have a nice evening. Sir Knight. Thanks for the soup."

 

[GreenTamm]

I stared at the container in my hand in surprise, "Thank you."

"You never told me your name."

"…Saint. I have been called Saint."

Michael looked surprised, "That seems a bit pretentious."

"Didn't pick it," I said and turned to walk away before I looked back at him, "Have a nice evening. Sir Knight. Thanks for the soup

Click to shrink...

Hehehe When you outMichael the Michael

 

[Vaermina]

"Faith may be a shield, but it's a bad one against blades or bullets," I said and crossed my arms, "You don't have your sword."

Click to shrink...

Actually given what the Swords of the Cross really are, it's a very good shield against blades and bullets.

"Maybe," I agreed as I nodded, "But she has never lied to me. Over two hundred years, I have never caught her lying to me. Not even once. She kept me safe. Manipulated a couple of times, yes, but usually for a very good reason in the end. And she kept me sane, as sane as possible while I lived through things that would turn anyone crazy."

Click to shrink...

Never caught her lying, key words there.

Because we know using OOC knowledge that she has a couple times.

 

[kitsune9]

I probably would have probably either told him what was going on or not shown up at the house at all so that was a bit of a surprise. I'm not sure what made him think that a different angel would have intervended for him though.

 

[kjyl]

That is some good Micheal Carpenter right there. I hope he shows up again in the story.

Out of wild curiosity how much of that scene was planned out?

 

[Tranquil Zebra]

Actually given what the Swords of the Cross really are, it's a very good shield against blades and bullets.

Click to shrink...

He says faith is not a shield against bullets, and remarks that Michael's sword isn't with him. This is correct on both counts, however Micheal has faith that he won't need a shield against any of those things, and he's right. Also, the sword isn't really a good shield against bullets. There is a reason Michael wears armour. The sword will allow for an even playing field, making the wielder immune or resistant to many tricks, but bullets isn't an unfair advantage held over mortals.

 

[Vaermina]

He says faith is not a shield against bullets, and remarks that Michael's sword isn't with him. This is correct on both counts, however Micheal has faith that he won't need a shield against any of those things, and he's right. Also, the sword isn't really a good shield against bullets. There is a reason Michael wears armour. The sword will allow for an even playing field, making the wielder immune or resistant to many tricks, but bullets isn't an unfair advantage held over mortals.

Click to shrink...

Don't forget that Michael has the Sword of the Cross that channels the collective Love of Humanity, not the one that channels it's collective Faith.

 

[Peanuckle]

For someone going to them for help, Saint sure is standoffish. Doesn't even try past a quick question, turns down hospitality which could get him in.

Complete turnaround from the start of the series where he was shutting Taziel out. You know, It's entirely that Taziel is playing the longest con. Every sympathetic bit about her has come from her own mouth, and Saint has no way to confirm it. For all we truly know, Taziel is actually a butcher from the frontlines of the war. And this sort of eons-long manipulation is what the denarians are all about. Saint didn't start paying attention to Taziel until she told him a sob story that he sympathized with, and from that point on it was all just sprinkling details.

Probably not given the way the fic is going, but I'd be stoked to see it end with Taziel pulling a "fooled you!" card.

 

[kjyl]

Also it's a bit weird that the Denarian that hates Denarians is finding reasons to not fight Denarians.

It bears repeating Lash was not Lashiel.

Also who is hoping Sanya turns up.

 

[BronzeTongue]

He is still weaksauce though? Just not bottom of the barrel anymore...

Like sure he can fight small-time vampires easy peasy and probably slaughter his ways through soldiers.

But that is after he got training in monster hunting, got the memories of a legendary demon hunter implanted into his head and has been in hell for who knows how many years.

And he still sucks at magic defenses and while he is good at slaughtering mooks that is not very impressive overall. And that is after a series of lucky and fortunate events that happened just in the right way so as to work out..

I mean, are you seriously saying that Taziel planned out everything, knew that years down the line he would have a powerful Kitsune girlfriend, connections to all sorts of people and have grown to kinda acceptable power levels. Then get stuck in hell for who knows how long to get into "decently powerful" territory? i.e. a decent option, but not really any kind of heavy hitter.



I am honest, this nonsense of Taziel mind-twisting Hiver-SI has always been nonsense even beyond the obvious waste of time it is. It goes against the basics of what we know of Fallen, that they want either full on allies or puppets on strings. We have never seen any example of them doing anything like faking someone's entire life, mostly because that would have been really convenient when Lash was dealing with Harry. As mentioned by @me.me.here, the only example we have of someone who has been brainwashed is someone full on jailed inside their mind and tortured. Like seriously, the only examle I have heard of Lash tricking Harry was some case of her faking being a librarian, and he specifically could look through her illusions with some effort.

Hell, we actually have an example of a Fallen Host laying down their coin and surrendering of their own free will! If the Fallen can so easily twist people's perceptions of reality, that would never happen because the Denarian hosts would only hear death threats.

Edit: More than that, it goes against the narrative, writing countless updates developing characters only to go lolnope at the end would be incredibly disatisfying and leave so many questions hanging that would need to be answered. Is Aiko real? Has their relationship happened? Was hell real? Did Saint actually experience his training with the crew, did he ever even meet Buffy. Is he even in Buffy-verse or is thsi just an elaborate TV show for him to live through? Its nonsense.





I mean yeah, if we conclude that she has some irrational out-of our knowledge or nature related reasons to stick with the random guy who has nothing useful and is super paranoid of her then we can conclude that it makes sense... We may as well conclude that she is the one friendly angel who just wants to be friends with everyone, give hugs to little children and make the ouchy's go away.

I mean, we are literally just making shit up in this case, stuff we have no idea about. I mean seriously, Taz is how many billion years old? The idea that she has never picked up an innocent person whom she could befriend, play the pure Fallen Angel with and satisfy any urges for being seen as the good guy who just wants to heal people with is ridiculous. Even assuming that a ancient being like that would even have such urges in the first place.

About that nature of spreading sicknesses... is that stuff from the main series? Because that sounds like a.) something we would have heared of for sure since it is a big deal, but I have seen no mention of that from any discussion on the Dresden Files series b.) go against the fundamental reason why they even fell in the first place, because they wanted the free will to do whatever they want, whether that be good or evil or whatever else.

Angels getting to use free will was the entire point of them falling. If they are stuck following some kind of nature ingrained into them, there was literally no point to them falling at all.

Click to shrink...

I don't think Taziel is doing anything with diseases right now, but that is something the Denarians did in canon. We know explicitly that Tessa/Imariel caused the Black Plague, and the books imply that they'd at least tried stuff like that before and since. Additionally, we don't know why they actually fell, the true motivations on the war are one of those things that aren't ever definitely explained.

I'm not saying the Taziel has to be the worst monster in existence, or that she couldn't have come to regret her actions. However, fallen angels are masters of deception and they are very good at twisting people without ever technically crossing a line.

A vast majority of Denarians don't step in with full, unbiased, knowledge of what they're getting into and most definitely act as subordinate to their partners. That's the reason that Anduriel and Nicodemus's relationship is noteworthy (though he isn't alone in having a more direct partnership). Magog's treatment of his hosts was the other end of a spectrum, not the other side of a coin.

It's also important to remember that angels very rarely change in any meaningful capacity, which is a plot point about how Harry convinces Lash to betray her purpose as an imprint. It's outright stated that if the full fallen was there that he couldn't have done jack shit to change her mind on anything, and she would have millennia of experience using the tools at her disposal to twist him into whoever she wanted him to be.

I mention this because it means that, barring "falling from Heaven" level influences on her nature she should largely be the same person now that she was when she was helping do things like release plagues on mortals. Maybe she didn't know what she was getting into or found a desire to be different despite the many, many, factors stacked against her - but it would be a long shot. Lets not pretend that it's unreasonable to distrust her on some level even now.

One of the consequences of using your immense insight into the human condition and nearly flawless deceptions to twist people into weapons and torment the innocent is that no one really trusts anything you do or say anymore. She was an active, willing, party to that at the bear minimum just to be in the coin in the first place.

 

[subsider34]

Man the tone shift in how people are treating Taziel in this thread compared to the last is jarring. Are people talking about the same Taz?

 

[Vaermina]

It bears repeating Lash was not Lashiel.

Click to shrink...

Saint might have forgotten that Lash was a conflux of unique circumstances coming together in a highly unlikely way.

 

[kjyl]

Man the tone shift in how people are treating Taziel in this thread compared to the last is jarring. Are people talking about the same Taz?

Click to shrink...

? She is one of the fallen. She is hyper intelligent, has orders of magnitude more life experience and experience in manipulating people.

Pretty sure the last thread had a lot of the same opinions.