- Location
- West Michigan
Or, y'know, they just switch places for a while.
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Going forward, links to content from Twitter (now X) will no longer be embedded. Pre-existing links should not be affected.
Hell is other angels
- Thread starter Hiver
- Start date
esotericist
A Weary Hand
- Location
- Lacey, WA
If he picked up anything from Ethan's shop, that's almost certainly enough to anchor the spell on him. Chaos magic (hopefully) does the rest.
- Location
- hell
As far as canon is concerned she is lying her ass off. Even if she is telling nothing but the truth. Anything to get him to take up the coin. After they become partners she would have a literal eternity to twist him around her finger since the bearers of the coins are basically immortal unless they get murdered, they have supernatural demonic forms that are hard to kill, inherent abilities that don't seem to require their hosts to have magical abilities. As far as I remember the Denarians don't have any special limitations on lying (my memory on this is not reliable because
Nicodemus Archleon, the leader of the Circle of the Blackened Denarius, is the only one I can remember explicitly lying and it is revealed that his human side is the one who leads the Denarians and is dominant in the partnership with the coin.
He's being completely reasonable in his actions. If it were me, knowing that the shade can alter sensory input, I wouldn't trust that the compass readings telling me to change the binding were correct. I'd have to co-opt a third party to check everything in order to trust it.
Edit: also, the only costume I can think of that cardboard box and no powers but plenty of skills brings to mind is good old Big Boss aka Solid Snake.
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Vox De Harlequin
Consequences are for other people
- Location
- Hyalean Theoric World
I may not be right person to say this, but there is such a thing as a stupid amount of paranoia.
Well... it is less the quantity than the quality.
This is decidedly low quality Paranoia.
Characterized by such things as: Blind belief that you are definitely correct, being paranoid about the wrong thing, and a variety of other factors that combine to make dumb.
Well... it is less the quantity than the quality.
This is decidedly low quality Paranoia.
Characterized by such things as: Blind belief that you are definitely correct, being paranoid about the wrong thing, and a variety of other factors that combine to make dumb.
esotericist
A Weary Hand
- Location
- Lacey, WA
As recent a shadow as it is, I'd expect it to count. If it goes a long time without refreshing, it's possible it might deviate enough from piggybacking on Hiver's soul, but I honestly have doubts that this Hiver is going to manage to avoid needing the coin for long enough for that happen.
Fresh-off-the-boat Hivers tend to be arrogant and frequently end up over their heads.
XkaliburRage
Perpetual Procrastinator
Hope the vitriol gets toned down, not really pleasant to read.
einargs
Verified Spiller of the Egg Yolk
- Location
- The Egg Yolk, Outer Layer
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Negative ninety nine million. She's a fallen angel, and more than that one so powerful that even Lucifer wanted her out of hell.
She's a fucking sadistic seductress with a grudge against all that is good and holy, and she's not afraid to mind rape a few hundred million mortals in the pursuit of that grudge.
It is essentially impossible to make her out to be worse than she is; she's just that bad.
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Vox De Harlequin
Consequences are for other people
- Location
- Hyalean Theoric World
Way to categorize something which you know basically nothing about, beyond the very general.
We know she fell for "wanting free will". We know that, for whatever reason, Lucy didn't want her in hell.
She at least appears to be trying to ingratiate herself to Hiver.
For some reason she is way outside the normal stomping grounds of the Denarians.
This is all we know about her.
Need I remind you, as many others in this thread have before me, that whilst it is possible for a Fallen Angel to lie, the fact that it opens them up to retaliation by other, non-fallen, Angels means they will do all they can to not.
Canon for costume is that Xander bought a toy gun, the uniform was his uncle's old army fatigues. A single item from Ethan's can cause the chaotic shift.
- Location
- Seattle, Washington, USA
Assuming that everything a Fallen says is a lie is an excellent way to be manipulated by them. Why? Because they are not required to lie all the time, they can tell the truh if they want to. One of the best ways to lie to someone is to tell them something absolutely true in a way that they come to the conclusion you eant -- and every Fallen knows this.
The rule is not that Fallen always lie (or demons always lie), it is that they CAN lie. But they also CAN tell you the truth. Acting as if everything they say is a lie allows them to use reverse psychology on you simply by telling you the truth.
Whether the Fallen are fluffy and nice or not is a matter of perspective. They are only guaranteed to be capital-E Evil if you presume that the God that cast them down is always 100% capital-G Good or that he is the sole arbiter of what Good is. The mere existence of other religions makes either of those things impossible to prove. Everyone says their religion is the right one and that their God(s) are the only ones who are good/righteous. Every religious person has faith. Your religion might be self evident to you, but it is not to anyone else -- often not in the same way even to other members of your religion.
If opposing God is all that it takes to Fall, then you could have Fallen who are benevolent and even nice, simply because they advised moderation when God was angry and didn't want to hear it. The same is true if God can cast an angel down on a whim. All we really know is that some angels pissed God off somehow and that Lucifer didn't want them in Hell with him. Going by what we've seen in canon, if Captain America was an angel, he would probably be Fallen and confined to a coin, simply because he wouldn't accept a 'because I said so' answer when he saw injustice.
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Evillevi
A Pikachu for everything - Shadow Pikachu,2015
The thing about paranoia is that the major problem comes from being unreasonable.
In this context and relevant to the plan Hiver is making, the single greatest problem isn't that the Angel is a danger, but rather he's choice of mixing Chaos magic with his Angelic problem without knowing the full scope of either side.
Without knowing the limits of the spell , the specifics of how it works, even teh nature of chaos/Janus magic, and the interaction between it and the Possesion, for all the SI knows the Halloween spell can bind the angel tighter to him if not worse.
Also looking outside in, Hiver is going full unreasonable paranoia mode and it's refreshing in it's unique meta ness
In this context and relevant to the plan Hiver is making, the single greatest problem isn't that the Angel is a danger, but rather he's choice of mixing Chaos magic with his Angelic problem without knowing the full scope of either side.
Without knowing the limits of the spell , the specifics of how it works, even teh nature of chaos/Janus magic, and the interaction between it and the Possesion, for all the SI knows the Halloween spell can bind the angel tighter to him if not worse.
Also looking outside in, Hiver is going full unreasonable paranoia mode and it's refreshing in it's unique meta ness
- Location
- Seattle, Washington, USA
Unreasonable paranoia is redundant. By definition, paranoia is irrational just like a phobia is.
The SI might have reasons to be wary, but he has long since tipped over the edge into paranoia. He's rejecting solutions that would work because they come from outside sources, while assuming his knowledge is absolutely without flaw. All it would take is being in a fanfic Sunnydale to throw everything he thinks he knows out the window, but he's acting on his knowledge as if it is guaranteed to be flawless and reliable.
That's irrationality at its finest. The problem is, saving yourself in the scenario he's in operates on the Garbage In-Garbage Out principle. He's setting himself up for a royal (possibly even divine) level screwing out of a combination of paranoia and hubris.
Random thought. What happens if a vampire or half breed demon picks up the coin? I'm thinking a brief fight between the entities, like when Angel let that succubus posses him. Except that the The Angel will win and replace the vampire in the body.
Stratagemini
Totally a Fire Ferret.
- Location
- Central Park
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They/Them
Please tell me ge didn't pick Batman.
- Location
- Over the hill and far away
Pretty much no incarnation of Batman actually kills, so it seems unlikely. Remember that the shadow is misleading through truthful words and inaccurate logic. So if she says the character kills a lot of people, it's probably true that the character kills a lot of people. But since we figure she's leading him wrong, it's probable that the character is likely to kill lots of people, but, quoting Arnie, "They were all bad!"
Flip side, of course, again, she's pulling a truthful 'think of the children' - the character he selected may legitimately cause friendly fire problems because it incorrectly interprets the kids as 'bad'. Again though, she's implying that this is likely, while it may not be. If there's a .000000001% chance of a friendly fire incident, she's free to truthfully tell him "this might cause really bad things"
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
How can you tell? The Shadow can manipulate your perceptions at will. For all you know the "diagram" you're using might be a tuna casserole recipe.
Even if you assume that she isn't flat out lying, she never stated which direction was the right direction, and you can't trust your perception of the compass.
And yet this remains a valid point. I don't know the SI's plan, but unless it's really brilliant, this is a huge risk - I can only hope the anticipated reward is suitably large.
Eh, almost no incarnation of Batman kills directly. But you could perfectly well argue that not killing people like the Joker makes you somewhat responsible for their crimes. Or that spending your nights beating up criminals is a very inefficient way to actually improve things, and the lives lost because he didn't spend his time better are again somewhat his fault. In fact, I'm pretty sure there's actually a alt-world story where Batman breaks his rule and the world becomes a Utopia.
The extent to which the SI's paranoia/perfectly legitimate fears are reasonable really depends on what sort of interpretation Hiver is going to use. Storywise, I think its a pretty good use for the possible ambiguity of the situation.
This thread is really not the place for that sort of argument.
Stratagemini
Totally a Fire Ferret.
- Location
- Central Park
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They/Them
Legally speaking pretty much every single incarnation of batman save adam west is guilty of multiple counts of felony murder at a minimum. And usually a few extra cases of manslaughter as well. It's not at all an unreasonable assumption that she means batman. Though she could mean punisher.
Khan_Panther
My Muse stole my Necronomicon & pen
- Location
- Huh, I'm right here trapped in these words of mine
Punisher atleast owns upto the fact that his mistakes can get a lot of people killed, but he does make a point. That by removing the villain in an efficient manner from society for ever can save lives.
In regards to the Joker I clearly remember one comic where he had killed a whole room of babies, so many that you couldn't make out the floor, and then shot a woman also. This could have been avoided had the Prison had more effective security or had the courts ruled that the Joker's insanity plea was forfeited, since he kept at it.
That's one reason I liked Worm so much, the people in charge were willing to put-out kill orders on the villains / imprison them in what might as well be the world's largest trap (the Birdcage). this competence in regards to threats doesnot mean that these have not been co-opted and twisted, just that they're more effective than most in the superhero genre.
.
I can't seem to find the link to a page that actually talks about this and how the heroes might just be naive villains with lots of good PR.
If someone finds it before me can they post it?
Good God do I have to many items saved into my favorites, most i don't have any clue why they are there
Probably shouldn't have brought it up, since that sort of discussion derails right quick, yeah. My point is only that Taziel's statement doesn't disqualify all that many people.
Vampires. Demons. Fallen fucking angels.
I now faced an enemy worse than any of them. Or at the very least deadlier as it did its best to kill me with boredom.
Math class.
I disliked it back in the day and then I was learning new stuff and I still found it boring. Now? Now I knew everything being taught already.
I was bored out of my fucking mind.
Glancing at the clock I idly doodled in the notebook. Not even the fact that Buffy and her gang were in the class kept me on my toes. That should tell you how bored I was.
I had a fallen angel riding shotgun in my head and I was in the same room as the Slayer and it still didn't keep me paying attention.
"...And remember to pick up your homework on the way out. That's about what we have time for today. Happy Halloween everyone."
Oh thank god.
I quickly started to pack my stuff up. It wasn't just that I was bored either. From what I remember, Buffy had a bit of a hair trigger and if she got the wrong vibe from me she might just stake me on instinct before I have the change to say anything. I'm allergic to being stabbed.
Shouldering my backpack, I headed for the exit and did a hard right turn to avoid Snyder. He was just an unpleasant little man as he was portrayed in the show and I could not be signed up to herd kids around tonight.
"Should you not warn them, my host?" a voice whispered in my ear. "You know danger is coming. People may die."
Yeah. People may die.
But... fuck. If I told them... if I told them, they would wonder how I knew. I would be involved!! I would get pulled in and I would never get out.
Swallowing, I pushed out of the school into the warm sunshine, doing my best to ignore the horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach.
What did it say when the Fallen riding in my head was the voice of reason? Oh yeah, that it was going to sound reasonable this time and be right. Which meant it might be right the next time too. Maybe I should listen?
Next thing I know I'm nailing nuns to the wall of a burning church.
No. Taziel is there to be ignored.
But... what if things go worse this time around? What if something I did changed things? What if Spike ends up being a bit faster and rips Buffy's throat out? It would be the end of the world.
"That is a possible risk. Is it worth risking the end of the world? Or any of their lives for this, my host? Children running around, Miss Summers, Rosenberg and Mister Harris? Are you going to risk all their lives to make a possible personal gain? Knowledge is power and that's what you have right now. With great power comes great responsibility."
"Shut up." I whispered under my breath and grit my teeth. I really didn't need a hell bitch quoting Spiderman at me!
She was right, though. God fucking damn it. This was what they did, wasn't it? Either I do as she wants or I do as I want to and regret it.
Shaking my head, I turned and headed towards Ethan's store. The center of this entire thing. I needed... the last piece. No matter what I chose to do, I needed the option. I had until tonight to make up my mind.
Pushing the door open, I walked inside and looked around. Plenty of people around which was good. The more people the less chance that somebody paid attention to me.
Moving in between the shelves I started to search for something suitable. Wouldn't it be typical if I did all this and ended up having to contact Giles in the end anyway just because Rayne didn't... Oh, toy weapons, perfect.
Frowning to myself, I went through the selection, drumming my fingers against my leg in thought. What to pick, what to pick... ah, perfect.
Picking up the box I looked over it before I frowned at the price. Ouch!
Twenty dollars for a plastic shotgun. That would wipe out pretty much everything I had left without needing to steal food or starve this month.
Well, if it worked it would be worth it.
If not... then it wouldn't. If I didn't go through with it then it would be a waste of money. I stood and looked at the plastic shotgun for a long while, turning the box over in my hands as I pretended to read the text on it.
For once, Taziel was keeping quiet.
People might die. Me just existing was affecting things by pure butterfly effect. Things might not play out like they did.
If someone died this time that didn't last time, it would be on me. If Xander, Buffy or Willow died... it could be the end of the world.
Could I really risk that for something that might not even work? I couldn't just tell them what was going to happen. It was just too dangerous. Even an anonymous note to Giles might work. But then they knew something would be up.
It might get me killed, especially if they somehow found out about Taziel.
But if I didn't, people might get killed. Could I really just stand by and let that happen?
No. Damn it. Fuck it all to fucking hell I couldn't.
Frowning, I looked down at the plastic toy. Could I... maybe do both? Try to get the boost and still stop it? Without getting involved further?
If I was behind the store when it triggered... with a note about what's going on before me to tell him... he would deal with it. If it worked, he would deal with it, I knew that much of the character. That would mean being out after dark, though. Some risks were worth taking though. Besides, it was Halloween.
More or less monster free.
Screw you, Taziel. I'm taking option number three.
"Can I help you young man?" A voice asked and I turned around to look up at Ethan Rayne.
"Yes. Yes I believe you can." I answered and showed him the weapon. "This one please. Is the price negotiable?"
A raised eyebrow was all I got in response.
"Damn. Fine. But this thing better come with a warranty."
AN// Many thanks to betaing for Grey Rook this section!
Double feature Friday!
I now faced an enemy worse than any of them. Or at the very least deadlier as it did its best to kill me with boredom.
Math class.
I disliked it back in the day and then I was learning new stuff and I still found it boring. Now? Now I knew everything being taught already.
I was bored out of my fucking mind.
Glancing at the clock I idly doodled in the notebook. Not even the fact that Buffy and her gang were in the class kept me on my toes. That should tell you how bored I was.
I had a fallen angel riding shotgun in my head and I was in the same room as the Slayer and it still didn't keep me paying attention.
"...And remember to pick up your homework on the way out. That's about what we have time for today. Happy Halloween everyone."
Oh thank god.
I quickly started to pack my stuff up. It wasn't just that I was bored either. From what I remember, Buffy had a bit of a hair trigger and if she got the wrong vibe from me she might just stake me on instinct before I have the change to say anything. I'm allergic to being stabbed.
Shouldering my backpack, I headed for the exit and did a hard right turn to avoid Snyder. He was just an unpleasant little man as he was portrayed in the show and I could not be signed up to herd kids around tonight.
"Should you not warn them, my host?" a voice whispered in my ear. "You know danger is coming. People may die."
Yeah. People may die.
But... fuck. If I told them... if I told them, they would wonder how I knew. I would be involved!! I would get pulled in and I would never get out.
Swallowing, I pushed out of the school into the warm sunshine, doing my best to ignore the horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach.
What did it say when the Fallen riding in my head was the voice of reason? Oh yeah, that it was going to sound reasonable this time and be right. Which meant it might be right the next time too. Maybe I should listen?
Next thing I know I'm nailing nuns to the wall of a burning church.
No. Taziel is there to be ignored.
But... what if things go worse this time around? What if something I did changed things? What if Spike ends up being a bit faster and rips Buffy's throat out? It would be the end of the world.
"That is a possible risk. Is it worth risking the end of the world? Or any of their lives for this, my host? Children running around, Miss Summers, Rosenberg and Mister Harris? Are you going to risk all their lives to make a possible personal gain? Knowledge is power and that's what you have right now. With great power comes great responsibility."
"Shut up." I whispered under my breath and grit my teeth. I really didn't need a hell bitch quoting Spiderman at me!
She was right, though. God fucking damn it. This was what they did, wasn't it? Either I do as she wants or I do as I want to and regret it.
Shaking my head, I turned and headed towards Ethan's store. The center of this entire thing. I needed... the last piece. No matter what I chose to do, I needed the option. I had until tonight to make up my mind.
Pushing the door open, I walked inside and looked around. Plenty of people around which was good. The more people the less chance that somebody paid attention to me.
Moving in between the shelves I started to search for something suitable. Wouldn't it be typical if I did all this and ended up having to contact Giles in the end anyway just because Rayne didn't... Oh, toy weapons, perfect.
Frowning to myself, I went through the selection, drumming my fingers against my leg in thought. What to pick, what to pick... ah, perfect.
Picking up the box I looked over it before I frowned at the price. Ouch!
Twenty dollars for a plastic shotgun. That would wipe out pretty much everything I had left without needing to steal food or starve this month.
Well, if it worked it would be worth it.
If not... then it wouldn't. If I didn't go through with it then it would be a waste of money. I stood and looked at the plastic shotgun for a long while, turning the box over in my hands as I pretended to read the text on it.
For once, Taziel was keeping quiet.
People might die. Me just existing was affecting things by pure butterfly effect. Things might not play out like they did.
If someone died this time that didn't last time, it would be on me. If Xander, Buffy or Willow died... it could be the end of the world.
Could I really risk that for something that might not even work? I couldn't just tell them what was going to happen. It was just too dangerous. Even an anonymous note to Giles might work. But then they knew something would be up.
It might get me killed, especially if they somehow found out about Taziel.
But if I didn't, people might get killed. Could I really just stand by and let that happen?
No. Damn it. Fuck it all to fucking hell I couldn't.
Frowning, I looked down at the plastic toy. Could I... maybe do both? Try to get the boost and still stop it? Without getting involved further?
If I was behind the store when it triggered... with a note about what's going on before me to tell him... he would deal with it. If it worked, he would deal with it, I knew that much of the character. That would mean being out after dark, though. Some risks were worth taking though. Besides, it was Halloween.
More or less monster free.
Screw you, Taziel. I'm taking option number three.
"Can I help you young man?" A voice asked and I turned around to look up at Ethan Rayne.
"Yes. Yes I believe you can." I answered and showed him the weapon. "This one please. Is the price negotiable?"
A raised eyebrow was all I got in response.
"Damn. Fine. But this thing better come with a warranty."
AN// Many thanks to betaing for Grey Rook this section!
Double feature Friday!
An open note to the SI, not to be taken badly by the author:
GOD DAMN IT HIVER! STOP BEING SO SELFISH!
You know what's going on in the world already. That means you have two options: Get out of Sunnydale, or get pulled into the plot, because hanging around the Slayer is probably your best bet for survival when there are things around that want to eat you.
The longer you delay, the worse everything gets, and the more people DIE that you could have SAVED just by relaying some information.
There are times I can deal with timid characters, who purposely avoid being drawn into a plot. Sometimes they just don't want the attention, and that's fine. Sometimes they know things turn out okay and aren't really needed, and that's fine. Sometimes the task ahead is just super intimidating, and not everyone is built for adventure. And that's fine. But getting cold feet about saving fucking lives with simple goddamn words is not bloody one of those times.
Yes, I know the SI is waffling closer to being actually useful almost immediately after that line. It was literally just that one line that made me flip tables.
Despite appearances, still enjoying this series. Can't wait for tomorrow.