Hard Enough - Pokemon SI

[Tempera]

Thank you for expressing yourself in such detail and so well and please don't take it as a criticism for me to say I just don't think that this is meant to be a dramatic story. It's been a comfy slice of life worldbuilding story about the Pokemon world and society with some action and family drama elements, and at that it's been very successful. I would question whether we need so many very long pokemon battles but if other people enjoy them then hey I can just skim those parts.

So yeah I think you're right that this fight was over telegraphed and Will is a one dimensional villain you're right, and if this story relied on high stakes dramatic battles that would be a crippling problem, but I don't think that's it's main appeal. I'm more curious to see how Empress is doing, what Forrest gets up to, whether Brock's mom will show up and whether Brock is going to get involved with campaigning for the next election.

Click to shrink...

I wouldn't object if this were just a slice-of-life story featuring shenanigans with Brock's family and Sabrina and etc, but there's been a lot of chapters so far dealing with big battles, Brock's preparations for battling, his training for those big battles (and general training), Legendaries, villainous teams acting behind the scenes, etc.

I think when your story opens up with an arc about facing down Lance, you have multiple chapters dedicated to joining a shadowy organisation facing down villainous organisations and so on, you have your protagonist having a battle against a Legendary Pokemon that goes over a full chapter, and you feature another chapters-long fight against a hyped opponent, the story opens itself for criticism on its lack of tension and challenge.

It can't really have it both ways. Either it wants to have multiple of these big, dangerous battle scenes where the protagonist is seemingly struggling, and it has tension through it, or it doesn't have the first and it lacks tension. Trying to have those scenes without any lines of tension through the story just undercuts the scenes.

 

[Barghest Blue]

Brock not only didn't lose any Pokemon to Moltres

Click to shrink...

Correct none actually died, although Don and Bertha were close to it, what's you point?

but he also got a salve in Chapter 131 from Pryce

Click to shrink...

Yes, so what?

that instantly mitigated the pain on both himself and his Pokemon from their lingering burns.

Click to shrink...

Um, I'm sorry, but what? I don't recall anything happening instantly. In fact, if I remember correctly, all that salve did was enable scars that wouldn't have healed at all into ones that would, and shortened the recovery time by a lot, but still not enough for them fight in this match.

Which, according to you and Tempura, is a pretty significant setback. It's merely not permanent. Because all that that would do is cause useless angst.

And that happened only because Brock has earned that.

 

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Um, I'm sorry, but what? I don't recall anything happening instantly. In fact, if I remember correctly, all that salve did was enable scars that wouldn't have healed at all into ones that would, and shortened the recovery time by a lot, but still not enough for them fight in this match.

Click to shrink...

From Chapter 131. Underlining is emphasis mine:

"I think he's better than he's been in a long time." I played with the salve before breaking out into chuckles. Oh man, Agatha was going to be pissed when she woke up and learned I'd helped Pryce get stronger.

I marched back out and immediately applied the salve to my injured pokemon. They all instantly sighed in relief. I felt a surge of gratitude at Pryce's gift. I hadn't known they were putting on such brave faces for me. Even if it didn't speed up their recovery rate, offering them pain relief like this was worth a lot to me.

I undid my own bandages and wiped some salve on my arm, and felt an instant coolness spread through my arm. My shoulder unclenched, and I blinked.

I hadn't noticed I'd been that tense. Huh, this salve was good stuff. I chuckled and checked over my pokemon again.

Click to shrink...

There was no healing, per se (in terms of injury recovery). But the consequence of facing a Legendary firebird has essentially been reduced to certain members of Brock's team being on the mend for a bit, as they would otherwise be after a tough Trainer battle. That by itself reduces the enormity of facing a Legendary, contra how Legendaries had been built up otherwise.

Which, according to you and Tempura, is a pretty significant setback. It's merely not permanent. Because all that that would do is cause useless angst.

Click to shrink...

"Useless angst" is your opinion. There's nothing that Viva's written that indicates he would've delved into "angst" in the pure meaning of the word, and that's not what's been argued for.

What's been argued for is for a sense of tension that the story has been lacking, insofar as Brock as the Protagonist is concerned.

/I mean
//what happened to Koga and Agatha as a result of facing Mewtwo is a legitimate setback
///with actual loss of Pokemon because of how they underestimated Team Rocket's Legendary
////that created a sense of tension insofar as those two are concerned from a reader's perspective
/////certainly not "useless angst", as you've described it

 

[Barghest Blue]

From Chapter 131. Underlining is emphasis mine:

Click to shrink...

You completely missed the point, read it again

certainly not "useless angst", as you've described it

Click to shrink...

Yeah, because that actually serves a point (demonstrating the power of Mewtwo), whereas killing a member of Brock's Elite team just for the sake of killing them to "show the stakes" or "have consequences" is useless for anything other than making Brock feel bad, which we already get enough of, and therefore, killing a member of Brock's Elite team, is in fact, useless angst, which you have already acknowledged Viva won't be delving into, so why would you bring the option up?

Losing any single member of his Team, with the exception of Titan, does absolutely nothing to hinder Brock, it would just make him feel sad, and thus, useless angst. The same narrative action of removing them as an option can be accomplished by taking them out of commission, which is exactly what happened. He is not able to use them right now, because they're injured, because the salve that Pryce brought did nothing instantly, which you somehow completely missed.

It's almost like Brock experienced a setback! Oh wow, imagine that.

 

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Yeah, because that actually serves a point (demonstrating the power of Mewtwo), whereas killing a member of Brock's Elite team just for the sake of killing them to "show the stakes" or "have consequences" is useless for anything other than making Brock feel bad, which we already get enough of, and therefore, killing a member of Brock's Elite team, is in fact, useless angst, which you have already acknowledged Viva won't be delving into, so why would you bring the option up?

Click to shrink...

You missed my point. I doubt that Viva would have portrayed it in a "woe is me" or angsty way, is what I was getting at.

But you seem to think that the loss of a Pokemon would be worth nothing more than "making Brock feel bad"; I highly disagree in terms of reader engagement with Brock having legitimate tension or a sense of struggle, instead of this vague sense that when it comes to events of major plot significance, Brock's victory or triumph is a fait accompli.

Losing any single member of his Team, with the exception of Titan, does absolutely nothing to hinder Brock, it would just make him feel sad, and thus, useless angst.

Click to shrink...

You seem to have a very strange perception of the importance of a sense of tension within the overarching narrative, unless you believe that (contra what I and @Tempera have argued) Brock has actually experienced meaningful tension within the story. (Which then comes down to difference of opinion.)

He is not able to use them right now, because they're injured, because the salve that Pryce brought did nothing instantly, which you somehow completely missed.

Click to shrink...

If you legitimately think instant pain relief from a burn wound (or any kind of debilitating injury with chronic pain, for that matter) is "nothing", I sincerely hope you never experience one. They're not fun.

It's almost like Brock experienced a setback! Oh wow, imagine that.

Click to shrink...

Again, if Brock still beats Will anyway (despite the match literally being hyped over months IRL and dozens of chapters in-story), it's not actually a setback, is it?

Which is precisely what @Tempera argued:

That's a legitimate setback if it actually sets him back. That's contingent on that actually causing a negative outcome in the fight, while this whole discussion is predicated around people not believing that the fight's actually going to result in a negative outcome. The general belief is that Brock is likely going to win regardless, or if he loses it's going to be because Will was cheating, not because Brock's Pokemon weren't up to the task.

Legitimate setbacks are things that actually impair you going forwards, or cause you significant troubles or hassles. Examples of this might include Pokemon being out of commission that cause Brock to lose matches he might otherwise have won; or it might include having to publicly lose a little face when backing out of or delaying a match; or it might include something that causes long-term negative effects, like traumatic nightmares on someone's part or a significant injury that permanently impacts someone's quality of life.

Losing out on Pokemon for a coming fight that you win anyway isn't particularly a legitimate setback. It barely registers on the scale for anything. It might matter if the protagonist is often portrayed as struggling and there's a sincere sense on the audience's part that this might result in a loss for the protagonist, but uh- I don't think anyone's sincerely expecting that to lead to a loss for Brock here.

[snip]

Wrapping this back around, we can see how this applies to Hard Enough. People have lost that buy-in; they don't believe that Brock is actually going to face any significant loss or problems.

This applies to the Will fight, but more broadly, it applies to the entire story. There's no tension regarding Legendaries, because when a Legendary showed up and actively threatened Brock, Brock was able to fight it back. There were injuries on his team, but there's no buy-in to the idea that this is going to cause him significant problems; he's got so many options and he's generally been presented as overcoming every challenger in such a way that people don't believe he's going to lose.

Click to shrink...

 

[Valmond]

You know, when i asked if people were demanding a death in his team.
I was being intentionally over the top.
Yet it is starting to seem like that is the what people are wanting here.

I don't think it's so much Brock "needing to learn a lesson" so much as Brock needs (from a narrative perspective, if nothing else) to experience some adversity which results in legitimate setbacks.

Click to shrink...

The person i was discussing earlier specifically called for Brock to be taught a lesson.
As for adversity, he has faced plenty, and the level required for a setback to be "legitimate" seems ridiculous.

 

[Barghest Blue]

unless you believe that (contra what I and @Tempera have argued) Brock has actually experienced meaningful tension within the story. (Which then comes down to difference of opinion.)

Click to shrink...

That is exactly what I believe

If you legitimately think instant pain relief from a burn wound (or any kind of debilitating injury with chronic pain, for that matter) is "nothing", I sincerely hope you never experience one. They're not fun.

Click to shrink...

They. Are. Still. Injured. They're just going to heal faster, but they're not healed yet. You argued that the effects of the Moltres fight were dealt with "instantly" which they are demonstrably not given that the injured Pokemon are still injured

Again, if Brock still beats Will anyway (despite the match literally being hyped over months IRL and dozens of chapters in-story), it's not actually a setback, is it?

Click to shrink...

Given this definition

Legitimate setbacks are things that actually impair you going forwards, or cause you significant troubles or hassles.

Click to shrink...

yes, that counts as a setback, given that Brock's Pokemon, being currently injured, and thus unusable for this match, is impairing his ability to deal with his opponent, causing him significant trouble and hassle, and is thus a setback.

As for adversity, he has faced plenty, and the level required for a setback to be "legitimate" seems ridiculous.

Click to shrink...

At this point I legitimately convinced that if Brock had faced Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres, had half his Elite Pokemon die, had to get the arm that got injured amputated due to complications, and Brock's Pokemon get OHKO'd for every attack Will's Pokemon land, that these people would still be convinced that Brock isn't facing adversity or hardship and needs to be "taught a lesson".

He's just started to get over his issues with Flint, a full third of his Elite team is currently incapacitated, dealing with societal and political machinations by Will and the Mayor that he's not suited to dealing with, his little brother just went through what nearly became a city destroying disaster (which was only averted by what might as well be a miracle), and A.J. just got dumped in his lap almost out of nowhere.

We see him, before this very match, struggling to deal with just the stress of the situation, let alone the actual events he needs to deal with.

He is legitimately reaching the limits of what he can deal with, and they're acting like he's living life on Easy Mode, and I don't understand their position at all because their commentary on what's happening seems to be completely divorced from the story that I am reading.

 

[Tempera]

At this point I legitimately convinced that if Brock had faced Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres, had half his Elite Pokemon die, had to get the arm that got injured amputated due to complications, and Brock's Pokemon get OHKO'd for every attack Will's Pokemon land, that these people would still be convinced that Brock isn't facing adversity or hardship and needs to be "taught a lesson".

Click to shrink...

You know, I tried really hard to engage honestly with the topic at hand, actually.

Over the course of my posts I've spent several hours writing out a few thousand words laying out why I feel certain ways about things, going into depth about how stories and story beats work, how emotional beats play off of audience expectations, and what particular events in the story have led people to feel the way that they currently do about the topic at hand and broader trends in the story.

It wasn't a small amount of time or effort spent doing so, and it was done in an honest attempt at being thoughtful about the story and what I feel are problems with it.

I'd appreciate it if you could at least match it with refutations regarding why you feel particular ways and how you believe the story's better off for it, rather than sniping at the position with deliberate and hostile exaggerations of positions in the thread that nobody holds.

Though with that said, I think I'll go and get back to writing myself instead, rather than get dragged further into people taking shots at me for engaging with critique.

 

[Barghest Blue]

You know, I tried really hard to engage honestly with the topic at hand, actually.

Click to shrink...

Could have fooled me

I'd appreciate it if you could at least match it with refutations regarding why you feel particular ways and how you believe the story's better off for it,

Click to shrink...

I have, just because they're not as long as yours doesn't change that, just means I use fewer words.

 

[Ultra Sonic 007]

I'd appreciate it if you could at least match it with refutations regarding why you feel particular ways and how you believe the story's better off for it, rather than sniping at the position with deliberate and hostile exaggerations of positions in the thread that nobody holds.

Click to shrink...

I have, just because they're not as long as yours doesn't change that, just means I use fewer words.

Click to shrink...

The below is quite literal hyperbole on your part:

At this point I legitimately convinced that if Brock had faced Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres, had half his Elite Pokemon die, had to get the arm that got injured amputated due to complications, and Brock's Pokemon get OHKO'd for every attack Will's Pokemon land, that these people would still be convinced that Brock isn't facing adversity or hardship and needs to be "taught a lesson".

Click to shrink...

Even if I wanted this to happen (which I don't), what makes you think this sort of scenario is what I, @Tempera, or literally anyone else has argued for?

Tension; uncertainty; a sense of unease, that victory in a plot-relevant battle isn't guaranteed for Brock.

This is all obtainable through less apocalyptic means than your example requires.

 

[Imrix]

yes, that counts as a setback, given that Brock's Pokemon, being currently injured, and thus unusable for this match, is impairing his ability to deal with his opponent, causing him significant trouble and hassle, and is thus a setback.

Click to shrink...

That's not a setback. Like, definitionally, that is not a setback. That's a hassle, a bump in the road, but it has not in fact set him back. Tempera gave a pretty functional definition of this already;

"Legitimate setbacks are things that actually impair you going forwards, or cause you significant troubles or hassles. Examples of this might include Pokemon being out of commission that cause Brock to lose matches he might otherwise have won; or it might include having to publicly lose a little face when backing out of or delaying a match; or it might include something that causes long-term negative effects, like traumatic nightmares on someone's part or a significant injury that permanently impacts someone's quality of life."

If Brock has some 'mons injured and are unusable for a match, but he has backups to replace them or doesn't need them, then that's not a setback. That's just... Harry Dresden "I mustered the last dregs of my will for the fifth time this evening to toss another fire blast." style bullshit. It's a vague gesture towards things being hard without having to actually respond to or do anything different from the norm because of these supposed difficulties - it's the aesthetics of hardship, but without any substance.

 

[Valmond]

So Brock loses to Will, then what?
Temporary loss of face, Will gets to style a bit before the house of cards falls down on him and Brocks rep is restored.
Come next challenge, people start to demand he loose because it's about time he face something more than a temporary setbacks.

This is all just the old "reality is brown" and "true art is suffering" bs.
Brock has dealt with problems before, it's just that he has not reached some arbitrary bar of suffering.

 

[Barghest Blue]

This is all obtainable through less apocalyptic means than your example requires.

Click to shrink...

You mean like all the things that have happened in the story?

The below is quite literal hyperbole on your part:

Click to shrink...

It's meant to be, but you're making me doubt whether it is

Tempera gave a pretty functional definition of this already;

Click to shrink...

I know, I used it, in the bit you quoted. The current situation in the story meets the definition, and is therefore a setback, because you agree that something that meets that definition is a setback, right?

It's a vague gesture towards things being hard without having to actually respond to or do anything different from the norm because of these supposed difficulties - it's the aesthetics of hardship, but without any substance.

Click to shrink...

Like, for example, being unable to use Bertha, Hypnotoad, Don and Sanchez because they're all currently injured? Does that not meet your definition of "doing something different"?

Does having to change some of the members of the team he'll use against Will not count as Brock "actually responding to" something?

Hell, even the Trainer Surge, where Brock has had to face over three times the normal amount of trainers, all day every day, to the point he has to actually decide not to work Sundays just so he can have time to spend with his family, when he could normally take care of anything in a five day week with time to spare, but instead he's completely booked out weeks in advance, does that not count as hardship?

Does the setback have to be something permanent, something he can't recover from, something that will constantly hang over his head for a significant time in the story before all you will finally, finally admit that he's even having difficulty?

Or is the fact that Brock is intelligent, mature, and instead of angsting over all the ways things are making his life difficult and instead he gets down off his cross, uses the wood to build a bridge, gets over it and moves on with his life after effectively and maturely (most of the time) dealing with his problems throwing all of you off?

 

[Mister Bad Guy]

I'm just gonna say, I grew up with Bleach. It had its protagonist, after his first fight with people who shared his powers, bleeding out on the sidewalk with his sword broken, holes in his organs, his powers gone, and his best friend getting dragged off to her future execution. And it was fucking sweet. Nobody called it "torture porn" or complained about the story getting too grimdark. Nobody complained that the main character was somehow less of a badass because he totally and unreservedly punked it in a fight with someone far stronger than him. They just kept watching to see what would happen next, what the fallout of the whole thing would be, and how Ichigo would get his powers back and kick Rukia's douchehead brother to the curb, and ended up being led right into the single most popular arc in the series. And Bleach is a trashy shounen that a lot of people will say actively lacked major consequences for its characters. If you can't catch up to that in a long-running action series, you're on your own.

 

[Imrix]

Like, for example, being unable to use Bertha, Hypnotoad, Don and Sanchez because they're all currently injured? Does that not meet your definition of "doing something different"?

Does having to change some of the members of the team he'll use against Will not count as Brock "actually responding to" something?

Click to shrink...

No, it doesn't. That's what I'm saying. The team he'd usually use is unavailable, so he... Brings up a reserve team that's apparently just as capable, or close enough as makes no difference. Like, insofar as Will is winning this fight, he's winning because of underhanded but smart battling and possibly (probably) cheating; there's no narrative emphasis that Brock might lose because his B-team is a meaningful step down or whatever. Therefore it's not a meaningful setback, it's just fluff. It's toothless.

 

[AthetosAdmech]

Whoever wins this match, I think it could develop into a much longer feud between the two. If Will wins and joins the Elite 4 then brock will have to deal with him having greater authority and influence which brock will feel obligated to try to curtail when he eventually abuses it. If Will loses then he could continue to escalate in the immoral actions he's willing to take to surpass his new rival and get revenge for damage to his reputation.

 

[Barghest Blue]

If you can't catch up to that in a long-running action series, you're on your own.

Click to shrink...

For one thing, this isn't a long running action series, for another, they just straight up lack the ability to bounce back from injuries like Bleach characters can, so this isn't an effective comparison, try comparing it to the Pokemon anime instead

The team he'd usually use is unavailable, so he... Brings up a reserve team that's apparently just as capable, or close enoguh as makes no difference.

Click to shrink...

So consequences have happened, but because they're not the ones you want, you're saying it doesn't count?

Like, insofar as Will is winning this fight, he's winning because of underhanded but smart battling and possibly (probably) cheating

Click to shrink...

Ok, quick question, what the hell could possibly happen to Brock that could have possibly changed this?

Therefore it's not a meaningful setback, it's just fluff. It's toothless.

Click to shrink...

Oh it's not a "meaningful" setback, why didn't you say so earlier? So because it's not this big gigantic thing that changes the course of the narrative, it straight up doesn't count to you? If a character successfully adapts to and overcomes a challenge then they didn't experience a setback or hardship in the first place, is that what you're saying? It has to affect Brock in a negative manner long-term for you to count it, as you are the impartial and officially selected arbitrator of what counts as a setback?

there's no meaningful implication that Brock might lose because his B-team is a meaningful step down or whatever.

Click to shrink...

Considering the various ways that the specific Pokemon could more easily handle most of the tricks and strategies Will is using on Brock's team, isn't the fact that Brock losing is an actual possibility and not an off chance an indicator that his B-team is a meaningful step down?

Or do you think that because Brock is still capable of winning that he wasn't "meaningfully" affected?

 

[Mister Bad Guy]

For one thing, this isn't a long running action series, for another, they just straight up lack the ability to bounce back from injuries like Bleach characters can, so this isn't an effective comparison, try comparing it to the Pokemon anime instead

Click to shrink...

For one thing: a series longer than Lord of the Rings is long in my book. For another: are you seriously saying the Pokemon anime is a series where the protagonist never has to lose a big or pivotal fight? Like, what the fuck?

 

[Imrix]

So consequences have happened, but because they're not the ones you want, you're saying it doesn't count?

...

Oh it's not a "meaningful" setback, why didn't you say so earlier? So because it's not this big gigantic thing that changes the course of the narrative, it straight up doesn't count to you? If a character successfully adapts to and overcomes a challenge then they didn't experience a setback or hardship in the first place, is that what you're saying? It has to affect Brock in a negative manner long-term for you to count it, as you are the impartial and officially selected arbitrator of what counts as a setback?

Click to shrink...

I'm saying it's not a legitimate setback if it's not a setback. I've been pretty clear about that, there's no need for this nitpicky badgering. Brock has suffered consequences, but those consequences are toothless; Brock isn't losing this fight because he has 'mons out of commission, he's losing it because of how Will is battling, with strong implications that Will's manner of battling is illegal and will be revealed as invalid, rendering any defeat illegitimate, and thus toothless.

Reminder; "Examples of this might include Pokemon being out of commission that cause Brock to lose matches he might otherwise have won." If Brock is down a few 'mons but has sufficient reserves that it doesn't matter, then it... Doesn't matter, lol. It doesn't cause a defeat, it's just fluff, a thing that happened.

Considering the various ways that the specific Pokemon could more easily handle most of the tricks and strategies Will is using on Brock's team, isn't the fact that Brock losing is an actual possibility and not an off chance an indicator that his B-team is a meaningful step down?

Click to shrink...

It could be. The story hasn't handled it as such, so no, I don't think it is. We can theorycraft about how Brock might be winning this fight with his A-Team, but that's our theorycrafting, not the intended read of the story, where the narrative emphasis on why this fight is going the way it's going, is weighted elsewhere.

 

[Barghest Blue]

For one thing: a series longer than Lord of the Rings is long in my book.

Click to shrink...

I never said this story wasn't long, I said it isn't a long running action series yes, it has action, but it's not an action series, it's more of a drama, if I had to narrow it down

For another: are you seriously saying the Pokemon anime is a series where the protagonist never loses a big or pivotal fight? Like, what the fuck?

Click to shrink...

How the fuck did you misunderstand me that fucking bad? What I am saying is use an example that is actually comparable to what you are comparing too. Bleach isn't, it's just too different from this story.

So, spelling this out since I demonstrably cannot just trust you to figure it out on your own, that means you must find examples of Champion Tier Trainers (since Brock is a Champion tier Trainer) that have gone through things Brock has gone through in this story. So, stuff like the Trainer Surge, fighting a Legendary, etc.

I'm saying it's not a legitimate setback if it's not a setback.

Click to shrink...

No, what you're saying is that because the setback isn't big enough, it's not legitimate, because it's still something that Brock can adapt to and overcome.

Reminder

Click to shrink...

Yes, and in the definition provided just before that quote, which you are pointedly not using (because I've already proven it applies to this very thing) this is a setback. You are quoting an example not the definition provided.

It could be.

Click to shrink...

What is this doublethink bullshit, this is a yes or no answer, is it or is it not? According to the definition, that you are repeatedly using the example from, is it a setback?

I'll ask this again

Does the setback have to be something permanent, something he can't recover from, something that will constantly hang over his head for a significant time in the story before all you will finally, finally admit that he's even having difficulty?

Click to shrink...

Well? Cause Brock has gone through a lot of shit during the course of this story, but it has so far stopped short of reaching this level. Does it have to go beyond this point before you will say he's "finally" had a setback?

 

[mothematics]

Could you please calm down?

 

[Imrix]

No, what you're saying is that because the setback isn't big enough, it's not legitimate, because it's still something that Brock can adapt to and overcome.

Click to shrink...

That is not what I said, no, and I object to you putting words in my mouth. The size or permanence of the setback is immaterial and insignificant to me, what matters is whether it is a legitimate setback. "Something bad happened" is not a legitimate setback if it gets brushed aside with no meaningful impairment of the character going forwards, or without causing them significant trouble. Brock is not in any significant trouble as a result of having 'mons out of commission, he just swapped to a B-team that's treated as functionally just as strong, and the trouble he is facing in this fight is both not caused by his A-team being incapacitated, and shaping up to resolve itself without further issue, e.g., Will's obviously cheating, which will render the outcome invalid.

Yes, and in the definition provided just before that quote, which you are pointedly not using (because I've already proven it applies to this very thing) this is a setback. You are quoting an example not the definition provided.

Click to shrink...

You have not proven it applies to this. You're arguing it does, I am flatly disagreeing. It is not a legitimate setback as it has not caused Brock significant trouble or impairment; having some 'mons out of commission is not a driving dramatic element of why he's losing this fight. There's no narrative cause and effect at play there.

What is this doublethink bullshit, this is a yes or no answer, is it or is it not? According to the definition, that you are repeatedly using the example from, is it a setback?

Click to shrink...

It's not a yes or no answer. It could be a legitimate setback, if the story framed it and the consequences of it as such. But the story has not framed it differently, so it is not a legitimate setback.

 

[Liquid Ink]

Something that I've not seen addressed, regarding tension and suspense and so on, is that both are a matter of education.

To evoke suspense and tension is not a miraculois thing that a writer just does. It requires the audience's emotional investment. This is done, not by killing off characters or hammering traumatic event buttons because those are not setups for suspense but consequences of disasters. Those things usually follow suspense rather than preceede it.

Suspense and tension are brought about in the reader by educating and informing them knowledge that they need to form an emotional investment. The more you know the more you get invested and the more invested you are the more you worry about specific outcomes.


View: https://youtu.be/DPFsuc_M_3E?si=oWstHeDvIVzc5q9F

With that in mind, we don't really actually know anything here.

We don't know what Will is doing. We don't know why he's doing it. We don't know what Brocks going to do. We don't know what Sabrina senses. We don't know what Sabrina is going to do. Perhaps those things matter, but overall, we also don't know what the consequences will be. Does it matter if Will wins or loses here? Does it matter if Brock, wins or loses here? Why, specifically?

There's a book I read some time back, though I cannot remember the name, that talks about stakes and tension and it refered to the idea that all emotional stakes in fiction depends on the idea that "death" is on the line. Not the literal death, but also the psychological death, along with the professional death. From brightest comedy to darkest tragedy, these things are present and often the entire story hangs on them.

What are the physical consequences of a loss here?

What are the psychological consequences of a loss here?

What are the professional consequences of a loss here?

I don't actually know for sure. I can guess, but most of what we know is limited to in-universe conjecture and metaknowledge so, while it's not absolute, in order to expect an outcome to feel suspenseful about I have started to guessing about what the outcome could be.

I don't want to speak for everyone, but I find that in myself there is a degree of uncertainty about the stakes, because I don't know enough about the possible consequences in play to develop an emotional investment in the battle itself. My investment is the last six months of slow build up, and that got me here, but there's nothing strongly keeping me here on an emotional level. The saving grace is that there is also nothing strongly repelling me from the story on an emotional level either, so I'm mostly just content to passively observe.

 

[Tempera]

There's a book I read some time back, though I cannot remember the name, that talks about stakes and tension and it refered to the idea that all emotional stakes in fiction depends on the idea that "death" is on the line. Not the literal death, but also the psychological death, along with the professional death. From brightest comedy to darkest tragedy, these things are present and often the entire story hangs on them.

Click to shrink...

Elements of Fiction Writing- Conflict And Suspense, by James Scott Bell, pages 10-14.

 

[Barghest Blue]

That is not what I said, no,

Click to shrink...

You have literally been arguing that because the consequences haven't been big enough it doesn't count as a setback, so, yes, that is exactly what you've been arguing. In your own words:

Brock has suffered consequences, but those consequences are toothless;

Click to shrink...

because the consequences are "toothless" you don't think it counts as a setback. Because the consequences are not by themselves directly Brock to lose this match, you feel they should have been bigger, more severe, so that they would be the cause, in spite of how little sense that makes in story when Brock has already established a way to prevent the consequences from directly affecting him like that, by having a larger Elite team than he can carry at any one time, to have depth and allow for exactly this sort of consequences.

So that he can still fight, even if he's not using the Pokemon that would be a better fit against his opponent, even if he's not in his best mental state, it won't directly affect his ability to fight.

You have not proven it applies to this.

Click to shrink...

Then quote the actual definition in that quote and prove it doesn't, don't keep using the one specific example as if it is the be all end all of what "needs" to happen before there is a setback

It's not a yes or no answer. It could be a legitimate setback, if the story framed it and the consequences of it as such. But the story has not framed it differently, so it is not a legitimate setback.

Click to shrink...

So that's a no then. You don't feel that Brock had experienced a setback, he's just kept on going, unaffected by what has happened to him in any negative way. That he has gone through no impairment, trouble or hassle in his ability to do things, at all.