Halkegenia Online Thread 4 (Reunited at Last!)

Man was scared of ghosts. Now you want him to fight zombies?

Schmitt and most SAO guild leaders strike me as being better suited as fighters. Thinkers is the exception.
 
Bradley McCloud said:
You know, I'm surprised Schmitt didn't take up a position as leader with his experience as the former «Divine Dragon Alliance» Defense Force Sub-leader. Is he an Undine, Gnome or a Salamander?
That'd probably get him a military command, but it's not exactly qualifications for a government position
 
So I'm thinking the next snip will introduce General Gramont and the embryonic beginnings of operation Dunkirk.
 
Triggerhappy said:
Schmitt and most SAO guild leaders strike me as being better suited as fighters. Thinkers is the exception.
Heathcliff ultimate leader.

Actually I have no idea what to think of Kibaou. For being as dumb as he is, he somehow inexplicably managed to rise to a leadership position in the Army. Thinker being ineffective and Japanese (not knowing how to deal with Kibaou's brashness and idiocy) is one thing, but...
 
Spectrum said:
Heathcliff ultimate leader.

Actually I have no idea what to think of Kibaou. For being as dumb as he is, he somehow inexplicably managed to rise to a leadership position in the Army. Thinker being ineffective and Japanese (not knowing how to deal with Kibaou's brashness and idiocy) is one thing, but...
Kibaou's not dumb, per se. The way he runs things reminds me more of a criminal syndicate: you support me, I'll make sure you get the best perks.

Not the best idea for a government given the situation, but it's very effective for undermining existing leadership
 
Triggerhappy said:
So I'm thinking the next snip will introduce General Gramont and the embryonic beginnings of operation Dunkirk.
This should prove interesting to see what Mortimer and the old General can up with to get them out of this fubar situation they are now in. I take it one of the options will be the whole try to make the letter look fake before realizing that it might not work given timing and other issues as described in an earlier post.
 
Mahrac said:
Kibaou's not dumb, per se. The way he runs things reminds me more of a criminal syndicate: you support me, I'll make sure you get the best perks.

Not the best idea for a government given the situation, but it's very effective for undermining existing leadership
No, he's hella dumb. His complaints about beta testers running off made no fucking sense. The ideal situation for non-beta players was for beta players to get as strong as possible and clear the game as quickly as possible. You have to say he doesn't care about other people and only himself (getting free shit/securing his position) that his words begin to vaguely make sense...but he's then not only dumb but an asshole on top of that.
 
Spectrum said:
No, he's hella dumb. His complaints about beta testers running off made no fucking sense. The ideal situation for non-beta players was for beta players to get as strong as possible and clear the game as quickly as possible. You have to say he doesn't care about other people and only himself (getting free shit/securing his position) that his words begin to vaguely make sense...but he's then not only dumb but an asshole on top of that.
The second is actually the case. In the Light Novels, he's actually working together with Diabel to try to buy Krito's Anneal Blade before the first Dungeon Boss.

I wouldn't say he has a great survival instinct but he's very good at scheming and manipulating, and that requires brains.
 
jwolfe said:
Ok, someone had said that most of the elves couldn't cast the [counter] shield spell.
For Languages sake there are two types of defenses we are talking about here.

[<Counter]> Which works like Final Fantasy's [<Reflect]> but that also works on physical attacks and is an enchanment.

And [<Counterspell]> which is the Elves using the spirits to seize control of a human mages Spell and Smack them in the face with it.

Only the best of the Best can do the First one.

Ability with the second is much more common and a trained skill. Like a Jedi's reflection of bolts really. They're just on plain average better than the vast majority of humanity.

Humans fight the First one and the elf can sit there wanking and feeding the spell for all it cares and they human get smacked by there own spells and unless they some how counterspell up a blaze strong enough to burn out there oxygen. Ya know something every Knight capable of casting can easily lolnope.

In the second theoretically if the elf has the flu or is simply a bit careless while well let's Say Dunwell class combat who's studied a bit of chemistry is coming at him at full cyclinders the human could win. By ya know creating a scondary effect like a Fuel air Bomb or something.
 
Spectrum said:
No, he's hella dumb. His complaints about beta testers running off made no fucking sense. The ideal situation for non-beta players was for beta players to get as strong as possible and clear the game as quickly as possible. You have to say he doesn't care about other people and only himself (getting free shit/securing his position) that his words begin to vaguely make sense...but he's then not only dumb but an asshole on top of that.
Eh I thought the ideal situation would be for the beta players to organize and help the non-beta's get orgnized and compile all the knowledge that would keep everyone alive.
 
Spectrum said:
No, he's hella dumb. His complaints about beta testers running off made no fucking sense. The ideal situation for non-beta players was for beta players to get as strong as possible and clear the game as quickly as possible. You have to say he doesn't care about other people and only himself (getting free shit/securing his position) that his words begin to vaguely make sense...but he's then not only dumb but an asshole on top of that.
Actually Kibou has a terrifying point.

In the first couple months of SAO, over 2,000 people died, and zero of that was from PK behavior. Moreover, if every Beta tester made a guild to guide new players, they would only need to manage nine people each. Looking at the scenario from a purely objective long term standpoint, it was within everyone's capabilities to save many of the people that died in SAO.

Kibou, though was not as you point out, thinking objectively. He's one of those players that cares about little else than himself and what he can swindle from others. That doesn't make his point any less relevant. Many of the Beta players literally abandonded players in a game who could no longer trust in the game's systems for a short term goal. And it showed no benefit, it took several months to clear each floor.
 
Zeful said:
Actually Kibou has a terrifying point.

In the first couple months of SAO, over 2,000 people died, and zero of that was from PK behavior. Moreover, if every Beta tester made a guild to guide new players, they would only need to manage nine people each. Looking at the scenario from a purely objective long term standpoint, it was within everyone's capabilities to save many of the people that died in SAO.

Kibou, though was not as you point out, thinking objectively. He's one of those players that cares about little else than himself and what he can swindle from others. That doesn't make his point any less relevant. Many of the Beta players literally abandonded players in a game who could no longer trust in the game's systems for a short term goal. And it showed no benefit, it took several months to clear each floor.
You do realize a good chunk of those deaths was from suicides.
 
Bradley McCloud said:
The manga shows people in denial and jumping off to test if they really do die or if they wake up at home, or people facing bosses tougher than them and end up dying.
Yeah suicides. A good amount of people did die to bosses. But most of the deaths with the first two months were by people jumping off the edge to their death.
 
Mahrac said:
The second is actually the case. In the Light Novels, he's actually working together with Diabel to try to buy Krito's Anneal Blade before the first Dungeon Boss.

I wouldn't say he has a great survival instinct but he's very good at scheming and manipulating, and that requires brains.
Every indication I've seen was that Diabel was using Kibaou as a patsy in order to buy Kirito's Anneal Blade. Saying they were 'working together' gives him entirely far too much credit.
koolerkid said:
I always thought he was attempting to establish a power base. Establishing an "us vs. them" mentality is a very fast, easy, and effective method of rallying supporters and establishing yourself as a leader, via the "cult of personality" method. It's actually a halfway clever use of social engineering using a basic knowledge of group dynamics.

It's still not a terribly bright move, since the testers are the best hope for escape from SAO, but I don't think he was thinking about that so much as ensuring that he, personally, was safe, secure, well-supplied and in a position of power.
Yes, that's what I said, this is a dumb thing that is dumb as it is detrimental to their real goal. You should not be performing actions with short term/transitory benefit at the cost of your real ultimate long term goal.
Zeful said:
Actually Kibou has a terrifying point.

In the first couple months of SAO, over 2,000 people died, and zero of that was from PK behavior. Moreover, if every Beta tester made a guild to guide new players, they would only need to manage nine people each. Looking at the scenario from a purely objective long term standpoint, it was within everyone's capabilities to save many of the people that died in SAO.

Kibou, though was not as you point out, thinking objectively. He's one of those players that cares about little else than himself and what he can swindle from others. That doesn't make his point any less relevant. Many of the Beta players literally abandonded players in a game who could no longer trust in the game's systems for a short term goal. And it showed no benefit, it took several months to clear each floor.
1) From the numbers I've seen, no, many of those deaths were from suicides. If anything, the majority of the combat deaths were in fact the beta players due to a variety of reasons (things changing from beta surprising them, just flat out not being good enough to play in their style, and so on).

2) Guild creation wasn't available on floor 1.

3) Beta players needed to be strong and blaze the trail while everyone else was still getting used to the game. I find it very likely that if they had stopped to try and educate more people directly (as opposed to just providing and verifying the New Player Guide) instead of getting stronger to clear the floor as quickly as possible, there would have been more time taken on the first floor and more suicides as a result.
 
Triggerhappy said:
So I'm thinking the next snip will introduce General Gramont and the embryonic beginnings of operation Dunkirk.
About that, are they going to contact the people in Albion to share it or for refining it? They'll need to know what is going to happen. And Asuna may have her opinions on certain things and also know who can fight and what can they do, at least on the faerie side.

And as far as the time needed for this go... Alicia cannot possible be the only one with the spell, right? Especially considering the tactical usefulness.

Come to think of it, who's going to lead the human side for Albion forces with Wales down?
 
Zeful said:
Actually Kibou has a terrifying point.

In the first couple months of SAO, over 2,000 people died, and zero of that was from PK behavior. Moreover, if every Beta tester made a guild to guide new players, they would only need to manage nine people each. Looking at the scenario from a purely objective long term standpoint, it was within everyone's capabilities to save many of the people that died in SAO.
Guilds couldn't be made until several floors later. At best, they would be able to guide 5 other players.

However, out of the original 1000 Beta Testers, about 700 returned. Not all Beta Testers are equally skilled.
They were made up of casual gamers, mmo veterans and people who had no idea how to play games. Basically, people got into the beta by random luck.

Kirito did have a point during his speech before he gained the title of [Beater], he just over exaggerated it and left out some facts.
 
Zeful said:
Actually Kibou has a terrifying point.

In the first couple months of SAO, over 2,000 people died, and zero of that was from PK behavior. Moreover, if every Beta tester made a guild to guide new players, they would only need to manage nine people each. Looking at the scenario from a purely objective long term standpoint, it was within everyone's capabilities to save many of the people that died in SAO.
Eh, if you look in to it a bit deeper, then canonically atleast, that works out less well then you think. The group that had the highest death rate for instance was the beta testers. The second group of highest death rate, was the people with experience in other MMOs.

Basically it seems like those with experience were to confident, took to large a risks and eventually ended up dead. So the initial winnowing was killing all the risk takers really, and everyone who by luck/skill managed to survive their initial mistakes. Kirito was actually one of those, he only barely managed to escape death on the first day. And afterwards he was never the same any more.


How ever this leads to the question, how useful would the Beta testers have really been to everyone else? Aside for giving information how everything worked, one wonders if they'd not gotten more people killed due to over confidence instead... In any case, of the surviving beta players we know some did give out information. And we know of atleast one who started a kind of guild, which later developed in to a clearing guild at that.

So over all... I kind of wonder if it would have been better if the experienced players had been restrained some what...
 
Quickshot0 said:
So over all... I kind of wonder if it would have been better if the experienced players had been restrained some what...
Even that depends on the player in question.

Let's use Coper as an example. Let's say he didn't manage to fuck up on Day 1 and get himself killed (but nothing else changed, so he didn't get Kirito killed or anything). What do we find likely he would have gone on to do? Probably MPK a few more people before fucking up later.
 
Spectrum said:
Every indication I've seen was that Diabel was using Kibaou as a patsy in order to buy Kirito's Anneal Blade. Saying they were 'working together' gives him entirely far too much credit.
Call it alternate character interpretation then.

that said, we're arguing the difference between smart and wise here.
 
Mahrac said:
Call it alternate character interpretation then.

that said, we're arguing the difference between smart and wise here.
Er, what? What exactly is smart about being told "hey, this guy's shady, you should buy his weapon so he's weaker during the boss fight" and going to do that? :p
 
I'm noticing some confusion in some of the replies on certain numbers.

-There is no evidence of mass suicides, some did so, but no where is it said a significant fraction did it. Most deaths seemed to have been from combat, etc.

-It should be noted not all 1000 beta testers rejoined the game, unsurprisingly as some would have decided it wasn't for them. Of the remaining portion a substantial part, I believe 300, died in the first 2 months. How many survived till the end is unknown, but obviously a lot more yet.

If we consider that by the end of the game the total death count was closing on 4k (so doubled), and that many beta players were in the risky frontlines... it wouldn't be surprising if only a minority of beta testers survived. Maybe only a few hundred, those to frightened to leave the starter city, those who wised up and became cautious, and those who were skilled enough to survive their mistakes. (ie Kirito)
 
Triggerhappy said:
So I'm thinking the next snip will introduce General Gramont and the embryonic beginnings of operation Dunkirk.
Nice to see a chance for Mortimer to establish his credentials with the locals. You mentioned back somewhere that this would be a chance for him to really ham it up. The question now is if he is genre savvy enough to save the villainous?/maniacal?/heroic?/Lelouch-worthy laughter for after the success reports come in?
 
It kinda hard to say that Kibou is an idiot just because he is a bad guy. It that would be a rule, it would apply to Heartcliff too.
After all he somehow managed to survive, as well as almost took control of biggest guild in SAO. It's not something that idiot is capable of doing.
*My point is to not throw adjectives about guy just because he is annoying.*
 
Spectrum said:
Er, what? What exactly is smart about being told "hey, this guy's shady, you should buy his weapon so he's weaker during the boss fight" and going to do that? :p
No, I mean I'm saying Kibaou is smart (possesses brains) and you're saying he's not wise (bad at applying common sense to said brains)

i.e. getting good equipment is smart. Getting it by weakening your allies isn't wise.

For my original point, getting together a power base, usurping a leader, putting said leader in a place where he can't rat you out, and preventing anarchy requires smarts.
 
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