I see some people seem to be assuming that a war would be fought in a seemingly some what WW2 or WW1 like way, with armies engaging each other over a front. This is unlikely to happen though as in the relevant era it's quite easy to refuse battle in a disadvantageous situation by withdrawing in to a fortified position, like a castle, fortress or walled city.
So while you can probably move around a lot and try to surprise an enemy force, getting in to any kind of decisive battle might turn out to be quite hard.
As such, back in the day quite a lot of combat seemed to involve sieging, as neither side might commit to an all or nothing battle so long as they can't guarantee a good outcome for themselves. Though I suppose one might try to trick the opposition in to thinking they could win a field battle...
I see some people seem to be assuming that a war would be fought in a seemingly some what WW2 or WW1 like way, with armies engaging each other over a front. This is unlikely to happen though as in the relevant era it's quite easy to refuse battle in a disadvantageous situation by withdrawing in to a fortified position, like a castle, fortress or walled city.
So while you can probably move around a lot and try to surprise an enemy force, getting in to any kind of decisive battle might turn out to be quite hard.
As such, back in the day quite a lot of combat seemed to involve sieging, as neither side might commit to an all or nothing battle so long as they can't guarantee a good outcome for themselves. Though I suppose one might try to trick the opposition in to thinking they could win a field battle...
Or march on an important town, threaten supply lines etc etc. Your thinking too far back. This is not the 13th or 14th century but the 17th century. Less Jean De Arc more 30 years war. (which actually took place around the time period of the Real life Cromwell).
Dammit... Those forum lags are making me mad...
Edit: And it mess my formating... Dammit!!!!!!
@revanninja
If you think we should not consider Asuna, Klein and Kirito as an elite Fea force, please look at Eugene. He is not a mage by any stretch of imagination yet he is consider the strongest Alfheim player.
I brought up the example of Wardes VS Asuna,Klein and Kirito to show that a single elite mage, can fight against one(here we have) elite fea on equal terms.
Keep in mind that All SAO survivors are physical oriented players, due to their experiences, and will not be hurling spells left and right because they are NOT mages. They are physical fighters and they hone their fighting style to best utilize abilities they excel in.
Sure they might learn few spells, but i doubt any SAO survivor would be able to master any alfheim school of magic on the level similar to Mortimer's or even Morgiana's (that is if you don't want them to be ridiculously overpowered), without at least a few years of training it solely.
BUT The discussion is about if Halk mages are capable of dealing with Alfheim mobs. Not about the strength of Fea magic vs Halk magic.
There are few things we must remember about mobs Group A; They're characteristics due to game mechanics.
1.) Mobs were created to be a challenge to the players. Given the Players have the right tools they might defeat them. If they're design is good (I will assume that Alfheim had good game designers), they should not be too powerful, but if they are, there must be a way to defeat them. A certain strategy or the weakness that can be utilized. A good Game Designer gives player a lot of choices as to how he can approach said monster.
2.) Keep in mind that power of most mobs that right now are roaming Tristan were not made to be of any challenge to the high level fea. They are created to allow lower or mid level fea to grind up and catch up to those high level ones. For elites were created zones like the World tree and Jotunheim.
That means even mid level fea should be able to deal with those monsters. And As I pointed out earlier: elite mage is capable of equal fight with elite fea we might come with a Theory:
A trained halken mage-soldier (line/triangle) will be able to fight with similar strength as mid level fea.
Please remember that this is just a theory, mostly because we didn't see much of mid level fea fights to really know what to think about their fighting skills. Group B Characteristics that monsters got from transforming into Living creatures.
1.) they are Living Creatures so they can be killed A LOT easier then when they where inside the game.
2.) They can be permanently crippled, blinded, burned, poisoned, squashed, trapped, out maneuvered, they hunger or can bleed to death, get any kind of diseases. In game mobs are usually immune to most of such status, or they are just timed debuffs, to make sure players can't quickly disable their enemies. Now this protection disappeared so it's something Halk mages(hell, even normal commoner soldiers) can utilize.
I'll be back at the morning, when the lag will end. So we might continue when I'm back. P.S I'll leave here the an updated Mortimer and Eugene Pic. I've looked up the images of Asch, but I just don't see Mortimer in him. I've always think 'Vetinari' when I read about Mort, and it's just so hard now to just change the perspective. Especially when I don't really know the Asch character that much...
Probably for the same reason people leave apex hunters alone on Earth? There's plenty of reasons ranging from research, sentimentality, out of a sense of fairness, or not wanting to go near them with a 34 and a half foot stick.
Besides, if they're not messing with them, people in Halk have more pressing issues, like waging wars, carrying out political intrigue, and general shenanigans.
What do herbivorous fish have to do with land based predators?
First the ALO mobs are more dangerous then anything Halk has. It straight out mentions that Orcs are being killed in mass by these things and orcs are the biggest monster threat due to numbers.
And you show again that you know next to nothing about Halk, Rhyme dragons were driven to near extinction by Mages and you think they can't handle some video game monsters?
You realize reproduction doesn't mean much when you have a starting population of a couple hundred scattered across an area of thousands of square kilometers right?
First Wardes is shown to be near Square and has LOTS of battle experince to the point he is not Elite he is SUPER Elite. The elite of the Elite sort of situation.
While Eugene is not a mage that is true but he does know spells and how to use them so your idea falls flat. Asuna Kirito and Klein on the other will use spells they just dont know many at this point. In ALO vol 8 I think they mention the fact they dont rely on spells but also point out they do know some as exampled by Asuna and Silica being healers and buffers.
The simple truth is we havent seen a single mid tier Fae yet face an Elite or another normal we are told about some stuff enough to get the clue it wouldnt go well for the mage.
All the Fae battles have been on the side of the Fae pretty heavily or have a single Halko mage dominating the Field like the Most intresting Man in Albion for example.
Otherwise its basically heavily Fae because of their power.
As KoKo showed even bloody and with a concussion she was still extremely powerful nearly by herself she took them apart, it didnt go well go for her but she was facing a group while already wounded.
Now as for the Mobs.
Why do you think their protection is gone? Because we have been told nearly everything has a direct translation to Real World stuff.
So if they had protection against Magic or Poison in the game they have it here.
As for how much health that is translated into how robust they are.
Same thing with Fae being Hard to kill its because their Hp got translated into being tough enough to have a mountain dropped on them.
Since Fae have it there is no reason why Mobs wont have it.
And while injuries or sickness is now a real threat to them the same can happen on the other side so its a moot point.
I am arguing from a straight stand up show down with the idea Sickness and injury being not factored in because that is what is called sliding scale of fairness.
By having all the mobs be sick slides it so far in the favor of hunters its not even funny and the idea EVERY SINGLE Mob will be sick or injuried or what have is asinine.
Now the issue with weakness that is a good point but runs into the fact Halk Mages will have no idea on how that works unless the Fae clue them in and sometimes figuring it out can be lethal. A good example is from Final Fantasy Tonberry they look silly but they can party kill if you dont take them seriously and out damage them before they can Kitchen Knife you.
Also sometimes weakness are Weird a good example is in FF Mystic quest Flying enemies are weak to wind thats right Flying enemies are weak to their own element. While unusal yes I have seen things like that before.
Also what happens when the enemy weak point is a spot on its body anyone who has played Zelda is used to this but would the Mages figure out hey these weird protusions can be ripped off as exampled by the Buddha Temple from Skyward Sword?
No they wouldnt because they arent used to thinking like that.
For them throw Fire or Wind and it dies when there are enemies that dont they have major issues.
As for your image... No I disagree it has too much of a Xanatos feel to it that the younger brother doesnt really carry. I dont know if you have played Tales of the Abyss but Asche the Bloody is almost a perfect personality fit for Mort only less of a raging temper but I have a feeling Sakuya is going to draw it out.
We don't, when was the last time you saw a Wolf or Cougar in the US?
What do herbivorous fish have to do with land based predators?
And you show again that you know next to nothing about Halk, Rhyme dragons were driven to near extinction by Mages and you think they can't handle some video game monsters?
You realize reproduction doesn't mean much when you have a starting population of a couple hundred scattered across an area of thousands of square kilometers right?
The first part Wolves are coming back around and when I lived up in cottage grove oregon my brother had a Cougar growl at him right outside our own window. And we werent in the boonies either it was chasing the deer that liked to camp right in our herb garden. I think it was 2 days later it was wandering the main street as casual as you please.
Now as for the Lion-fish which you missed was the fact when a new animal is introduced with no Natural predators it grows well outside its normal ranges its WHY the lion-fish is so much of an issue it has enough protection that nothing eats it and it reproduces fast.
Mobs are like that they have no natural predator they dont even prey on each other since it was a gmae and outside of scripted events they dont attack each other as mentioned in Vol 4 with the evil-gods.
So they have NOTHING that will normal kill it meaning they can reproduce and hunt with little care. That is a big thing.
No I knew about the ryhme dragons but there was several issues with it. First they dont reproduce very fast from what I remember since they have a long life-span so they cant easily replenish their numbers which is a BIG thing.
We are talking about comparing hunting a single species down to hunting dozens of them down many of them stronger then a dragon...yeah that will go over well.
As for reproduction hmmm you werent paying attention they already have started to reproduce it was mentioned with a spider Mob and the Dagger Dogs are in a pack big enough to support a growing populace just like in normal wolf packs.
Also you are thinking they are spread willy nilly when in Most MMOs monsters are grouped in areas like for example running into Rhak Ghouls on Taris or Robots in the junk yard from FFXIII.
Most Mobs are going to be grouped together enough to be able to join up pretty easily.
Yes there will be some scattered but even in Field mobs they tended to stay together in certain areas.
Wouldn't Tristain want to keep the ALO mobs that aren't threatening the local populous around to act as a natural barrier against invaders, elves, and stupid people?
On the topic of adding modern tactics and technology to high fantasy wars, has Mortimer read Mao Zedong's works; "On Guerrilla Warfare" and "On Protracted War"? Those would probably work better in Tristain than instant radio and mechanization.
However I like to add that now that the Mobs are real and not shackled down by ALO's codes there's a good chance they they would grow and evolve on their own. Pixies definitely did and if they are an example of ALfheim's fauna, some sort of [<<URL href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDMQ0gIoADAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fstarcraft.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FPrimal_zerg&ei=3XJwUrLPC8Ow0QXdoIGACw&usg=AFQjCNH79XpzbKNW5oB-fvgEGyqCsm1lAg&sig2=ICalL0L-KB4b5HkySmmv1A&bvm=bv.55617003,d.d2k"]Evolving[/URL]>> on top of their change in behavior is not all that improbable.
And let's not forget Field Bosses (one of them was enough to give Eugene-led party a good deal of trouble and took down some of the Tristain's best fighters... it was more of an ambush but still) and hidden bosses like that Quatzequatel-thingy in Tarbes. One does not kick the hornet's nest without first being prepared, and Faeries have a lot in their hand to start HalO's version of Great Hunt any time soon.
There's also a good chance that Faeries and Halks regret not actively dealing with the "Deep Forest Mobs" (which are generally the more dangerous ones, if what Faeries said during treaty negotiations are anything to go by, and thus left alone for now) when winter comes. Who knows what the Mobs would do?
The first part Wolves are coming back around and when I lived up in cottage grove oregon my brother had a Cougar growl at him right outside our own window. And we werent in the boonies either it was chasing the deer that liked to camp right in our herb garden. I think it was 2 days later it was wandering the main street as casual as you please.
They are coming back because they were put on the endangered species list which made it a felony to kill them.
Now as for the Lion-fish which you missed was the fact when a new animal is introduced with no Natural predators it grows well outside its normal ranges its WHY the lion-fish is so much of an issue it has enough protection that nothing eats it and it reproduces fast.
Mobs are like that they have no natural predator they dont even prey on each other since it was a gmae and outside of scripted events they dont attack each other as mentioned in Vol 4 with the evil-gods.
So they have NOTHING that will normal kill it meaning they can reproduce and hunt with little care. That is a big thing.
Which forgets the biggest reason why they are a threat, their environment. We can't go around shooting them underwater and any poisons are likely to do as much harm as good.
No I knew about the ryhme dragons but there was several issues with it. First they dont reproduce very fast from what I remember since they have a long life-span so they cant easily replenish their numbers which is a BIG thing.
We are talking about comparing hunting a single species down to hunting dozens of them down many of them stronger then a dragon...yeah that will go over well.
Nothing is ever said about their reproduction, and those dragons should realistically have been stronger then elves once grown given their ability to use spirit magic.
As for reproduction hmmm you werent paying attention they already have started to reproduce it was mentioned with a spider Mob and the Dagger Dogs are in a pack big enough to support a growing populace just like in normal wolf packs.
Also you are thinking they are spread willy nilly when in Most MMOs monsters are grouped in areas like for example running into Rhak Ghouls on Taris or Robots in the junk yard from FFXIII.
Most Mobs are going to be grouped together enough to be able to join up pretty easily.
Yes there will be some scattered but even in Field mobs they tended to stay together in certain areas.
This isn't pokemon where you can get an egg that hatches in 256 steps. Creatures take time to grow, which means even if left unmolested it will be decades if not centuries before they have a worthwhile population.
How did the Transition translate the Extended Weight Limit skill?
It was mentioned earlier that personal inventory space worked by item "weight" rather than size; since most combat gear is made of heavy metal, this handily restricts the amount of spare gear you can carry in subspace. Kirito and Kino maxed this skill out; Kirito because he was a solo player and Kino because he was his guild's pack-mule.
Kino was able to bear up a heavier backpack than Caramella without as much strain because of this, though it might also have had to do with his Strength attribute. But Kino can't have neglected his Dexterity, given how good he is with throwing knives.
See, I still want to refine my picture of [<The Swiss Army]> or any other Leprechaun guild. I imagine that unless they had a racial trick for carrying lots of personal equipment and collected treasure around, the Extended Weight Limit skill would be very popular and highly leveled.
Vaermina, you are right in that creatures take time to grow, but you are overstating the problem; certain animals in real life are known to mature sexually in less than a decade. Population growth is generally considered to be exponential, and rapid maturation and a lack of natural predators will result in baaaaaad news for the local wildlife if they cannot adapt to compete.
Sure, not all mobs will mature in less than a decade, but generally, the smaller and more widespread mobs, ie Dagger Dogs, Chime Civets, Insect type mobs and so forth will pose more of an immediate population growth problem than field bosses and the uber-mobs.
Wolves have had a campaign against them for HUNDREDS of years the biggest threat was the fact Farmers would leave poison out for them well after they were protected and it wasnt until the invention of rifles that they really dropped.
But it was the poison that really did it Farmers would leave bait out near their stock and wolves would eat it then die and this still took SEVERAL. HUNDRED. YEARS. Close to 200 if memory serves.
While Poison is true since water is still an issue there has been SEVERAl land animals that have had the same issues.
Several snake species for example most notable the constricters.
Mongoose in hawaii
Starlings a type of small bird.
So just because my first example is aquatic doesnt mean its the only one.
Its a major problem PERIOD.
Just because they can use Spirit magic doesnt mean they can use it well. A good example is Humans to Chimps we use several basic tools the Hammer in their case its 2 rocks the stick even some basic levers. A chimp has greater physical strength then we do. But we can use tools MUCH better then they can and refine ours while they still use the same tech from 1,000s of years ago. Chimps have a physical advantage just like Rhyme Dragons do but just like Elves we are better able to use our shared items to make up the differences.
So Just because the Dragons Have Spirit magic doesnt mean they use it well or on the same level as Elves. Which means Elves can be more dangerous.
I do have the question why were the dragons hunted that I dont remember or could find with a search.
Pokemon?
Rabbits can produce a litter in 30 days of up to 12 babies and can do it for 9 months of the year. hear about breeding like rabbits? Yeah.
bandicoots can produce a baby in 12 days but it takes 3 months for full growth.....Hmm 3 months were have I heard that before?
Rodents are able to reproduce also fast how fast varies on breed but they can start poping them out in weeks after birth.
Wolves after breeding take 2 months and have 4-12 pups and they can reproduce after 3 years give or take a bit.
These are some easy examples
So animals can start reproducing quickly based on species and several other factors the insect mobs have already started for example as from the snip also the Slimes are Asexual only needing enough mass to split into 2 slimes.
So your point is hurt by the very real animal kingdom saying rapid reproduction is not only can happen its common for smaller animals. How this works out from the transition into real numbers I dont know but my guess is the Mobs that have a fast respawn rate will have a high reproduction value.
Trying to say I am even THINKING of pokemon is an insult and you should be ashamed of yourself. I hold a BA in Anthropology study of Animals fall in that because tribes do follow hunting patterns of animals after all while that isnt my field I had to learn it in school in fact my Teacher was Dr. Kim Hill an anthropologist who studies the Ache in South America a recent out of the bush tribe and he required us to HEAVILY understand it like how much meat went into a diet hunting patterns what was prey and what was not.
Several tribes for example capture baby animals for their children to play with the reason for it is so they can learn the methods and behavior of the animals and that inculdes how fast they grow so they can know when an animal can be hunted or not for best meat.
Vaermina, you are right in that creatures take time to grow, but you are overstating the problem; certain animals in real life are known to mature sexually in less than a decade. Population growth is generally considered to be exponential, and rapid maturation and a lack of natural predators will result in baaaaaad news for the local wildlife if they cannot adapt to compete.
Sure, not all mobs will mature in less than a decade, but generally, the smaller and more widespread mobs, ie Dagger Dogs, Chime Civets, Insect type mobs and so forth will pose more of an immediate population growth problem than field bosses and the uber-mobs.
The ubers are also the ones that are less likely to be run across by accident since many of them remain mostly dormant until disturbed/time to eat or else live in highly inaccessible places. There's also probably a few powerful field bosses that are happy to leave people alone so long at they don't take the maguffin they're guarding
Horrible image of a Tristanian town telling an invading Albionian force about a powerful magical artifact kept in the temple in the forest
The ubers are also the ones that are less likely to be run across by accident since many of them remain mostly dormant until disturbed/time to eat or else live in highly inaccessible places. There's also probably a few powerful field bosses that are happy to leave people alone so long at they don't take the maguffin they're guarding
Horrible image of a Tristanian town telling an invading Albionian force about a powerful magical artifact kept in the temple in the forest
Regarding mob reproduction we have in story confirmation that at the very least the Terrorantulas have already liad and hatched their first 'real' generation before the Tarbes adventure. Also the as the current season in HalO 2.0 seems to be late spring-mid summer (several months after the Transition which was supposed to be in spring) so there is a high possibility that many of the non field boss mobs have had or will soon have their first litters, clutches etc.
The Lone survivor wounded heavily reaches for the artifact his hands shaking from blood loss. As his hands grip it the artifact a small round object with several jewels on it gleams in his bloody hands. As he touches its jewels the thing begins to glow its top opening into a great maw which springs forth an image of a little girl.
"Congratulation Players this Item is a token for "Gravity" when the spell Set is released this item will be removed from your pack and you shall be granted use of the Gravity spells!" Her voice is chiper and upeat.
He begins to laugh all this for a TOKEN!
His horrible broken laugh echoes inside the temple grounds falling on the deaf ears of the dead from which the ever widening pool of blood under him assures he will soon join.
I may have been a bit creepy but since its near all Hallow's eve meh.
Speaking of that point, one of the common things in MMO games are the themed mobs that appear around Halloween, Christmas etc. It will be interesting to see if anything like that shows up near the relevant dates.
No one will be able to look at jack-O-lanterns or scarecrows the same way again.
The Lone survivor wounded heavily reaches for the artifact his hands shaking from blood loss. As his hands grip it the artifact a small round object with several jewels on it gleams in his bloody hands. As he touches its jewels the thing begins to glow its top opening into a great maw which springs forth an image of a little girl.
"Congratulation Players this Item is a token for "Gravity" when the spell Set is released this item will be removed from your pack and you shall be granted use of the Gravity spells!" Her voice is chiper and upeat.
He begins to laugh all this for a TOKEN!
His horrible broken laugh echoes inside the temple grounds falling on the deaf ears of the dead from which the ever widening pool of blood under him assures he will soon join.
I may have been a bit creepy but since its near all Hallow's eve meh.
Seems to me that a better idea would have been to send them after something actually useful, then sent for a party to tail them. That way it's a win-win either they all die and the dungeon is easier for a while or they clear it and Tristain gets to ambush the weakened force and take the artifact and some PoWs.
Speaking of that point, one of the common things in MMO games are the themed mobs that appear around Halloween, Christmas etc. It will be interesting to see if anything like that shows up near the relevant dates.
No one will be able to look at jack-O-lanterns or scarecrows the same way again.
Unless if they are considered in hibernation or something like that I doubt it.
Most of those arent active and since its only active ones that got moved.....
Its possible but I doubt it.
But that does bring up some good points some of the monsters are FREAKY and nightmare fuel inducing a good example are the Monsters from Shadow Hearts
The orb chaos a boss from the game
Seems to me that a better idea would have been to send them after something actually useful, then sent for a party to tail them. That way it's a win-win either they all die and the dungeon is easier for a while or they clear it and Tristain gets to ambush the weakened force and take the artifact and some PoWs.
Oh no I was just thinking they would do that with what it actually is just Albion hearing the rumor of a powerful Fae artifact and going me want and then boom.
The fae have no clue what is in it since its a hidden dungeon they just know the monsters are no joke.
*Fae drop down from the skies, and in the distance a great pumpkin like shadow with a crown on its head can be seen rising from the darkness. In front of the confused and scared villagers the first great annual pumpkin war begins*
Tristain: The land where you take faery tales seriously. Because there's a good chance that they are DEAD serious (japanese folk have some scary ghost stories too... BEWARE THE HIDDEN REFERENCES)
--
