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Gunsmith Katsumi - Akitsukuni Arms Design Quest

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Character Sheet
  • Informational
    • Tachibana Katsumi

    Stress: 5/10

    Accomplishments
    Mechanical Engineering degree
    Got a job in your field
    Type 37 Special Purpose Rifle
    Type 38 Self-Loading Pistol

    Friends
    Maeda Rumi: Your roommate.
    Sanders Clara Rose: A colleague who works for Naylor, Sons & Daughters.

    Coworkers
    Mr. Watanabe: Your superior.
    Mr. Akutagawa: The boss of the company.

    Workshop 3
    Ms. Ikeda Nioh: Chemist. She also seems to be Mr Watanabe's personal secretary, but you're not sure if that's an official position.
    Mr. Yakade Yasuo: Physicist, specialized in ballistics. A living, breathing Technical Appendix C.
    Mx. Kusonoki Mayumi: Has a degree in materials science. Gets a look on their face when they say they know more about wood than anyone.
    Mr. Shiragiku Hideyoshi: Metalworker. Having met him, you've learned why metalworking is a craft and the meaning of the phrase "thinks himself heaven's gift to women".
    Mr. Kashiwa Ichiro: An apprentice gunsmith with a background in carpentry and actually using guns on people.

    Technologies
    Rifles (Familiar)
    Shotguns (Familiar)
    Pistols (Familiar)

    Rotate-and-pull bolts (Practical)
    Straight-pull bolts (Practical)
    Aperture sights (Practical)
    Stripper clips (Practical)
    Lever-delayed blowback operation (Practical)
    Double-stack magazines (Practical)
    Single-action handguns (Practical)
    En bloc clips (Conceptual)
    Simple blowback operation (Conceptual)
    Short recoil operation (Conceptual)
    Toggle-delayed blowback operation (Conceptual)
    Blow forward operation (Conceptual)
    Simple blowback operation (Conceptual)
    Double-action pistols (Conceptual)
    Automatic revolvers (Conceptual)
     
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  • Informational
    • [X] Single Action
    [X] Delayed Blowback
    [X] Magazine in handle

    I think we probably want a manual (non-grip) safety anyways just as good practice, so I'm not sure I see a big downside to people just holstering it cocked and locked. As a result, we can go single action, both for an easy trigger pull and for simplicity in design. You need two hands to load it anyways, so having to pull the slide when you load doesn't seem like a problem.

    Delayed blowback lets us keep a fixed barrel, which is nice for multiple reasons. Also, we're borderline with this being workable with regular blowback, so we can probably get away with a pretty small amount of delay. Maybe off-axis bolt or something?

    Magazine in handle is mostly just nicer IMO. You've got a bunch of grip space, just stick the magazine there.
     
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    Eukie said:
    [x] Pistol should be capable of fitting a stock allowing shouldered operation.
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    Does the requirement for a fitted stock interfere with a grip safety? I'm trying to figure out the ergonomics and pushing forward against the grip safety to make the thing shoot feels like it'd conflict somewhat with pulling the stock back into your shoulder for stability. Plus a grip safety and the carbine lug would fight for space on the back of the grip.

    ...Hmm. I wonder if we could make the carbine lug do double duty as a bayonet lug.

     
    Vebyast said:
    Does the requirement for a fitted stock interfere with a grip safety? I'm trying to figure out the ergonomics and pushing forward against the grip safety to make the thing shoot feels like it'd conflict somewhat with pulling the stock back into your shoulder for stability. Plus a grip safety and the carbine lug would fight for space on the back of the grip.

    ...Hmm. I wonder if we could make the carbine lug do double duty as a bayonet lug.

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    no way, this looks like some kind of edgy anime thing. like this is the gunblade of a mysterious stranger who teleports behind you and says "psh, nothin personnel kid"
     
    xthetenth said:
    DA/SA is cool but SA and a good safety let you carry the thing cocked and locked, draw, flick the safety off and start firing. When your magazine runs out, if you have a hold open, you replace the mag, drop the slide/equivalent, and the hammer's already back. In an automatic pistol, double action is honestly unnecessary. DA/SA pistols rock for gun games where you need a minimum trigger weight and they let you count the DA pull when you're actually shooting the ultralight tuned SA pull, but it's hardly a required feature. Striker fired handguns have a dead trigger once the striker's dropped too, and nobody cares.
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    I disagree, given the low amounts of training and fire time people are going to get, cocked and locked is a liability, not an advantage. In the end flicking off a safety is a fine motor action which in the stress of combat is iffy at best, especially if you don't have it ingrained as a rote, habitual action. Compare this to the gross straightforward action of just pulling the trigger. A smooth DA/SA trigger is far better than a standard SA trigger for a combat pistol.
     
    Literally how is SA/DA worth stress? It's one connector bar!

    [X] Double Action/Single Action (+1 Stress)
    [x] Short Recoil
    [x] Magazine in front of trigger

    Logic: We're Japanese, so small hands are a thing that's actually really important to consider. Short recoil is pretty simple to design, and more importantly can be made pretty light if the design has anything remotely like a telescoping bolt. And for everyone who's worried about melee requirements, well, that's what literally just putting a rod on the frame is for. Hell, put a wire shroud on the end and you can stick a sight on it.
     
    FrangibleCover said:
    Right now you're only deciding on rough ideas, you will be allowed to choose later, for example, which Delayed Blowback system you use if you vote for Delayed Blowback.
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    Folks who are voting specifically for gas-delayed, why not just vote for delayed blowback? We can let Tachibana and crew consider the upsides and downsides of various types before we make up our minds.
     
    7734 said:
    Literally how is SA/DA worth stress? It's one connector bar!
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    Because as far as Tachibana knows, nobody has made a DAO or DA/SA semi-auto pistol yet. She'd have to put a lot of effort into figuring out why nobody's done it before and then how to do it. Inventing new technologies is taxing on her.
     
    Vebyast said:
    Does the requirement for a fitted stock interfere with a grip safety? I'm trying to figure out the ergonomics and pushing forward against the grip safety to make the thing shoot feels like it'd conflict somewhat with pulling the stock back into your shoulder for stability. Plus a grip safety and the carbine lug would fight for space on the back of the grip.
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    You can always do what the P7 does, and make the "grip safety" a squeeze cocker under the trigger guard in FRONT of the grip. That'll let you leave the back open for a shoulder stock no issues.

    For my choices...we do need to keep in mind the target market here. While not for everyone, much of the target market will have never shot a pistol before in their lives. And we're gonna need a fair number of them. Anything that makes the gun easier to operate will help here.
    FrangibleCover said:
    [ ] Single Action[ ] Double Action (+1 Stress)[ ] Double Action/Single Action (+1 Stress)
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    I'm sorry, CZ-75 system! I love ya, but asking dumbo NCOs and conscripted sailors to learn two trigger pulls is probably an extra point of failure. And since we aren't going with a revolver we have zero reason to use a Double Action Only system. Besides, the two big competitors for "best pistol of this period" are the M1911 and the Hi-Power, both of which are SAO (the Hi-Power got DA/SA clones post-war).
    [X] Single Action
    FrangibleCover said:
    [ ] Short Recoil[ ] Blowback (-1 Stress)[ ] Delayed Blowback[ ] Write in: Something else
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    One of our criterion for caliber selection was power, so straight blowback is gonna be ouchie, and delayed blowback is, as noted, complex. And if you "press the gun into someone's stomach" you've put it in grabbing range of the other person, Shiragiku, you moron! Why would you do that?!
    [X] Short Recoil
    FrangibleCover said:
    [ ] Magazine in handle[ ] Magazine in front of trigger[ ] Write in: Something else
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    If we had an unlimited budget and a target market of pistol hobby enthusiasts, I'd write in "Magazine BEHIND the handle" and get started on bullpups and braced pistols early. Alas, we don't. And as everybody who's seen pictures of Nazis holding MP40s by the magazine will tell you, a magazine forward of the trigger is an invitation to hold it there...and thereby screw with your feed reliability. It'll also make either barrel shorter (thus the gun less powerful) or the frame longer (and thus make us more likely to miss the weight requirement).
    [X] Magazine in handle
     
    [x] Single Action
    [x] Short Recoil
    [x] Magazine in handle

    bang bang next target

    ten rounds quick!

    It doesn't sound to bad with a bit of thought.
     
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    What in the ever-loving fuck? It's like someone managed to combine the most insane parts of fascism and communism into some truly demented revolution-for-the-sake-of-revolution manifesto.

    Anyway, turn-of-the-century madness aside.

    [X] Single Action

    Consider me cynical about the prospect of a DA automatic pistol. DA revolvers are bad enough just cocking the hammer, what's having to pull the whole bolt back to load a round going to do to your pull weight?I'm dumb lol

    [X] Short Recoil

    Just because our dick of a boss wants it doesn't make it inherently bad. This was good enough for John Browning, and it's good enough for us.

    [X] Magazine in front of trigger

    This makes converting our pistol to a carbine in the future dead easy. No changes to the guts needed, just a longer barrel, extended magazine, and stock.

    E:

    Davin Valkri said:
    If we had an unlimited budget and a target market of pistol hobby enthusiasts, I'd write in "Magazine BEHIND the handle" and get started on bullpups and braced pistols early. Alas, we don't. And as everybody who's seen pictures of Nazis holding MP40s by the magazine will tell you, a magazine forward of the trigger is an invitation to hold it there...and thereby screw with your feed reliability. It'll also make either barrel shorter (thus the gun less powerful) or the frame longer (and thus make us more likely to miss the weight requirement).
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    I would like to point out that the Mauser C96 was, according to Wiki, only 30 grams heavier than the M1911, with a slightly longer barrel length to boot.
     
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    firestorm440 said:
    What in the ever-loving fuck? It's like someone managed to combine the most insane parts of fascism and communism into some truly demented revolution-for-the-sake-of-revolution manifesto.

    Anyway, turn-of-the-century madness aside.


    Consider me cynical about the prospect of a DA automatic pistol. DA revolvers are bad enough just cocking the hammer, what's having to pull the whole bolt back to load a round going to do to your pull weight?
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    What? A double action trigger on a semiauto does the same thing it does on a double action revolver, it doesn't move anything but the hammer, if you don't have a round chambered then nothing goes bang. And as to trigger weight that all just depends on the fit of your parts and the strength of you springs, you can tune it to whatever you like. If I had my druthers I would have an 8-9lb DA and a 4-5lb SA pull.
     
    Sarpedon said:
    What? A double action trigger on a semiauto does the same thing it does on a double action revolver, it doesn't move anything but the hammer, if you don't have a round chambered then nothing goes bang. And as to trigger weight that all just depends on the fit of your parts and the strength of you springs, you can tune it to whatever you like. If I had my druthers I would have an 8-9lb DA and a 4-5lb SA pull.
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    Yep, that reminds me to not write these things when I'm going to bed. Thanks.

    Still sticking with SA though, because we have a Stress budget for this project, I don't think this is the hill to spend it on, and DA only is just...such a pain.
    Adhoc vote count started by Sir_Travelsalot on Jul 12, 2020 at 8:12 PM, finished with 40 posts and 19 votes.
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    firestorm440 said:
    Yep, that reminds me to not write these things when I'm going to bed. Thanks.

    Still sticking with SA though, because we have a Stress budget for this project, I don't think this is the hill to spend it on, and DA only is just...such a pain.
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    Well then its a good thing The option I am pushing is DA/SA ain't it? :p Best of both worlds.
     
    Psyentific said:
    if one does not want stress, one should not be an engineer
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    Speaking as an engineer... please don't normalize it. Being actively, noticeably stressed out by an engineering job means someone has fucked up somehow. Some industries and some types of project are harder to keep stress-free, but ultimately speaking, stress in engineering is a culture problem and entirely fixable. I get really annoyed by people saying that engineering is stressful like it's some kind of universal truism. It's not.

    (This is one of the times I really wish I could link to the slide deck we have at Google titled "no heroes". If your load is too high because you're the one maintaining something after-hours - let it fail! Heroic effort just conceals the real underlying failures and ensures they never get fixed. It's unsustainable and leads to fragile engineering.)
     
    firestorm440 said:
    You mean other than putting us at 5 Stress when we still have most of the project to go? :p
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    Innovation and being the best requires sacrifice, and to be honest we should be more willing to take on stress at low levels like this, no need to shy away from cool and interesting when there is another half of the track left open.
     
    So, off-axis delayed blowback looks interesting. It wasn't invented until 1921, and has seen very little use. On the other hand, it's really cool and probably not that hard to make? It also winds up sort of redirecting some of the recoil, which is interesting though I have no idea what it'd feel like in a pistol. If we wind up not putting the magazine in the grip, then this would be something to do with all of that free space.

    Here's a gif demonstrating how it works.

    Edit: I think that gif is a modified version, but neat either way.
     
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    Sarpedon said:
    Innovation and being the best requires sacrifice, and to be honest we should be more willing to take on stress at low levels like this, no need to shy away from cool and interesting when there is another half of the track left open.
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    We have no guarantee that penalties only happen when we hit 10 Stress, and even then, I'd rather leave budgeting room for something really big - a Schnellfeuer C96 equivalent, perhaps, or a wire stock?
     
    Eh, I'd rather focus on making just an interesting, good semi auto before doing anything wrt select fire and wire stocks are terrible, I would much rather have us utilize our high end custom stock game to our advantage rather then a thin piece of metal.
     
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