Glory of the Emerald Empire (Legend of the 5 Rings Quest)

[al103]

Going "I've thought better of you" is really something you'll heard from a sensei scolding an apprendice (or well, it feels like this), and we're not a sensei. We're a visitor.

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...
*Tries to remember a single case where it was sensei that said this phrase or analog in Japanese or even non-Japanese media*
*fails*
I don't remember a single case when it was used like that and remember several where it was among peers or even kohai to sempai.

 

[EtchedSteel]

...
*Tries to remember a single case where it was sensei that said this phrase or analog in Japanese or even non-Japanese media*
*fails*
I don't remember a single case when it was used like that and remember several where it was among peers or even kohai to sempai.

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Going "I've thought better of you" is really something you'll heard from a sensei scolding an apprendice (or well, it feels like this), and we're not a sensei. We're a visitor.

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If it doesn't apply then sorry. I'm not too into japanese media like I used to be before.

 

[gman391]

Isn't citing the precedent of a Musho Shugyo the last thing we want to do here.

That explicitly involves renouncing your responsibilities to your lord* and family and becoming a ronin whilst on your warrior pilgrimage of self-discovery.

It's essentially validating Hanabi's point.

* with their permission.

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Well it does, but the cultural mores are such even if you do that, you're not doing that. The central point here is that travelling and learning things is awesome balls and Sousuke himself feels like he's learned a lot from travelling and is a better Samurai for his lord, and he understands why Himawarmi would feel the same and approves.

All in a round about rokugani way.

 

[Ridiculously Average Guy]

[X] I am disappoint.

 

[Alratan]

Well it does, but the cultural mores are such even if you do that, you're not doing that. The central point here is that travelling and learning things is awesome balls and Sousuke himself feels like he's learned a lot from travelling and is a better Samurai for his lord, and he understands why Himawarmi would feel the same and approves.

All in a round about rokugani way.

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But it's not awesome balls. It's a penitent quest undertaken to redeem a perceived failure or lack.

Your lord releases you from your obligations because they see that you can't fulfil them as best as you can otherwise.

 

[EtchedSteel]

But it's not awesome balls. It's a penitent quest undertaken to redeem a perceived failure or lack.

Your lord releases you from your obligations because they see that you can't fulfil them as best as you can otherwise.

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Actually, you may become a ronin but your loyalty and actions are still with your clan. Is quite different.

If your lord wants you to redeem a perceived failure or lack, he'll ask you to either commit sepukku or cast you away entirely.

 

[Sirrocco]

But it's not awesome balls. It's a penitent quest undertaken to redeem a perceived failure or lack.

Your lord releases you from your obligations because they see that you can't fulfil them as best as you can otherwise.

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Not so. Musha Shugyo is done by request. Specifically, your sensei makes a request of your diamyo that you be permitted to do such a thing (sometimes granted, sometimes not). Then, once you're done, your sensei makes the request that you be permitted back (usually granted, unless you've dishonored yourself in the interim... though before he makes that request, you have to demonstrate to him some feat of incredible skill and prowess).

It's not... an exact fit, though it's close enough to use in this case, and Sousuke isn't pretending any real comprehension of it. Potential pitfalls...
- Hanabi could double down - as we're still remaining in the fiction that this has nothing to do with her insulting Himawari, and especially if she knows more of the tradition than we do (probable) she could find some way to turn the comparison into an even more dire insult of Himawari, still smiling.

Huh. Thinking about it, that's the big one, really... and the problem is that I don't see that we've really given her any reason *not* to. Also, having superficially bought into the fiction once (even while disagreeing) it becomes more difficult to break out of it later.

Another way to look at it... we're the only thing at the table that can change Hanabi's mind. In order to de-escalate and actually make it stick, we have to change Hanabi's mind. What does this do that changes her mind, given how intent she appears to be on her goal? What breaks her out of her current plan?

 

[Alratan]

Actually, you may become a ronin but your loyalty and actions are still with your clan. Is quite different.

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I thought it was explicitly not the case, and that when a 'ronin' you had plausible deniability to act as if you were a different person.

That's why it's so problematic, because it explicitly involves opting out of your feudal obligations to your lord (if they agree) to complete your personal journey of self-improvement, which is exactly the accusation Hanabi is making. The difference is that the person going on the self-improvement quest isn't taking on the normal hardships of completing a Musha Shugyo, as she isn't being reduced to ronin status. Effectively, she's cheating. She's getting the benefits without accepting the culturally defined price for them.

Looked at it that way, Hanabi might actually have a Sincere point. If what Hamawari was doing was acceptable, the social construct of the Musha Shugyo wouldn't exist.

 

[Simonbob]

[x]gman

As a serious vote, anyway.

You really want to stop this, you have to understand that really, this is about Face. There are a few outright No-No's for Samuri, and with permission from their Lord almost anything is alowed, as long as it Seems right.

This has nothing to do with the trip Miss Lion being on as wrong, after all, her Lord is the only one who can say that. It's just an insult, and any counter can be turned.

If you want to Crab counter, I suggest Tetsubo through table, then say "And that's how I smote the Ogre. The End."

 

[Winged Knight]

There's some good discussion here. I'd hate to cut that off, so I think I'm going to give y'all the weekend to determine just what exactly you would like to do to handle this precarious position you've found yourselves in.

Unless a bunch of votes come in clear for one direction. In which case, I'll probably just write it today.

 

[Satar]

If you want to Crab counter, I suggest Tetsubo through table, then say "And that's how I smote the Ogre. The End."

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The Dragon might take offense at our destruction of their table.

Do we have money to recompense them?

 

[horngeek]

I dunno, the popular vote now seems incredibly blunt for Rokugan. I prefer the 'talk about how going on a pilgrimage to improve oneself is a legitimate activity for a Samurai'.

Disparaging someone who's walking her own path seems odd for a Dragon to do anyway- isn't that what the Dragon are about?

 

[gman391]

YEP!

 

[Simonbob]

Ok, I've had a bit of time to consider this, and I've got an opinion to express.

The idea of directly hitting Dragon-chan is suicidal. First, it says we are her superior. Only those who are above her, and in her "Chain of Command" can say that kind of thing without it being a horrible insult. And she's a duelest, and we're not.

And, no, we cannot use the Tesubo in a duel, that's just not done. (Note, it has happened in canon, between Crab, sure. Outside of that? Once, leading to the Crab in question winning the duel, and being dead within the next few months. Not a good idea.)

Second, we're siding with a Lion while in Dragon Lands, while trying to get the Dragon onto our side. That's- Thats...... Nope, not gonna say anything more on that one.

So, yeah, I don't want to be forced to commit sepuku, so let's not do that, Ok?

 

[Sirrocco]

Ok, I've had a bit of time to consider this, and I've got an opinion to express.

The idea of directly hitting Dragon-chan is suicidal. First, it says we are her superior. Only those who are above her, and in her "Chain of Command" can say that kind of thing without it being a horrible insult. And she's a duelest, and we're not.

And, no, we cannot use the Tesubo in a duel, that's just not done. (Note, it has happened in canon, between Crab, sure. Outside of that? Once, leading to the Crab in question winning the duel, and being dead within the next few months. Not a good idea.)

Second, we're siding with a Lion while in Dragon Lands, while trying to get the Dragon onto our side. That's- Thats...... Nope, not gonna say anything more on that one.

So, yeah, I don't want to be forced to commit sepuku, so let's not do that, Ok?

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I believe that you are seriously mistaken about the social implications of expressing disappointment and disapproval, especially in as general terms as my write-in has it. This is Rokugan. The judgement of one's peers is a central part of what makes their society function. At the same time, I acknowledge that I am at times incorrect, and the disagreement on the matter on both sides is significant enough to the discussion at hand that it does call for impartial adjudication (at least, as far as our skills will give it to us).


@Winged Knight : I have another etiquette check request. Given our position with respect to Hanabi (same status, higher glory, most likely higher honor, different clans, recent though friendly acquaintances), what are the social implications of expressing disapproval in the way my write-in suggests?

 

[Simonbob]

@Winged Knight : I have another etiquette check request. Given our position with respect to Hanabi (same status, higher glory, most likely higher honor, different clans, recent though friendly acquaintances), what are the social implications of expressing disapproval in the way my write-in suggests?

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Thanks. I'm judging from the last time I played.

One of the others said the wrong thing, and was dead before the end of the night.

LoTFR can be rough.

 

[Winged Knight]

@Winged Knight : I have another etiquette check request. Given our position with respect to Hanabi (same status, higher glory, most likely higher honor, different clans, recent though friendly acquaintances), what are the social implications of expressing disapproval in the way my write-in suggests?

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Etiquette Roll: 6k3=40

I just... Sosuke... Why?

Anyway, the social implications are pretty straightforward and certainly didn't need a 40 on an Etiquette check to hit. If you express disapproval with someone it's exactly that, expressing disapproval. This isn't exactly an insult, though it certainly can be if you convey it in a rude manner. Just saying you disapprove, however, isn't something that would usually be taken as insulting and anyone who did make an issue out of it would get some very odd looks from their peers.

Ultimately, people in Rokugan judge each other all the time. It's how their social system works, comparing words and deeds against each other. There have certainly been times that expressing approval or disapproval has gotten people killed, but that's usually as part of something larger and how they declared said approval/disapproval.

 

[al103]

That's why it's so problematic, because it explicitly involves opting out of your feudal obligations to your lord (if they agree) to complete your personal journey of self-improvement, which is exactly the accusation Hanabi is making. The difference is that the person going on the self-improvement quest isn't taking on the normal hardships of completing a Musha Shugyo, as she isn't being reduced to ronin status. Effectively, she's cheating. She's getting the benefits without accepting the culturally defined price for them.

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Only she is not. Musha Shugyo is when you increase your personal power, but she essentially travel "on orders" - so her travel is to increase clan power if just by strengthening herself. Which is quite viable course of action. It's just usually people that would strengthen clan by such travel are needed more in clan so traveling is dereliction of duty and breaking out is required to do it - but getting out to get stronger and strengthen your clan in return with clan's head blessing...

...

In fact Hanabi not just insulted her, but her clan's head in roundabout way. Accusing him of mismanagement of resources for allowing this.

 

[Sirrocco]

So... an expression of disapproval is at least a societally acceptable response here, and one that, if phrased right (and I believe mine is phrased in an appropriately non-insulting way) should not give her cause to take offense. If she's doing this because she's fixated on us (as her earlier fangirlish squeeing might suggest) it has at least a chance of causing her to back down. If she's doing it because she is a semi-crazed duelist who just likes humbling and/or killing her fellows for the thrill of it... it's much less likely to work (though conceivable). If she's doing it because she's an absolute psycho who responds with full force to any slight, real or imagined... well, those types don't *generally* last all that long in Rokugan, but it's possible. In that case, she may wind up turning her tongue on us. I really don't expect it, but I acknowledge the possibility (particularly if we roll *really badly*). If she does, well, it will depend, but I suspect that we'll still have at least a chance to salvage the situation.

As for gman's vote, it's a nicely written snippet, and in other situations (say, if tempers were rising, but there wasn't someone deliberately escalating things), I think it would work just fine, but I don't see how it prevents Hanabi from responding by just going after Himawari again. There are all sorts of unfavorable comparisons that could be made (for one thing, Musha Shugyo is about becoming an absolute badass by duelling all over the place and joining in on basically every battle you find) that would leave us right back where we are now, but with less room to maneuver. Given that she started this thing (and how she started this thing), I don't see that she'd have any reason not to use them.

 

[Simonbob]

Gman's about breaking momentum, and calming both.

Ok, I'm wrong about the comment-as-an-insult thing, but it's still picking a side, to my mind, when we're trying to get said side onside.

 

[Sirrocco]

Gman's about breaking momentum, and calming both.

Ok, I'm wrong about the comment-as-an-insult thing, but it's still picking a side, to my mind, when we're trying to get said side onside.

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You look at Hanabi, your jaw almost dropping in shock at the woman's words. Hanabi, however, is still smiling pleasantly at the Lion woman. Almost you could think her oblivious to the growing rage you detect in Himawari's posture, save for that glint in the Dragon Samurai's eyes. Her smile, as well, seems just a hair too wide to be sincere.

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Hanabi is calm. Actually, she's downright enjoying herself. Calming Himawari, while it certainly can't hurt, does not fix the situation.

 

[Simonbob]

Hanabi is calm. Actually, she's downright enjoying herself. Calming Himawari, while it certainly can't hurt, does not fix the situation.

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True.

Not sure we can fix the sich, though. I'm not happy doing anything that has us picking a side, here. A mostly neutral statement, sure. Anything against the Dragon? No. We might be better off just letting it happen.

It's one of 4 opitions, to my mind.

1)Back a side outright. That, I don't like. We don't know who will be useful for our trade mission. That's at best, going to cause issues.

2)Try to de-escilate in a polite way. Worth a try, not very risky, might pay off. gman's vote, and mine.

3)Nothing. Safest option, doesn't get us involoved, might be best for the Crab. Hard to say, though.

4)CRAB INTERUPT!!!! The fun one! I want, really really want. But, I think nobody else is willing to go out onto that ledge, so.......

 

[Eliar]

Hmm something like...

[jk] Meow! Ladies, ladies why so tense? My room is just across the hall, how about you accompany and we can see how we can... relief all that edge?

 

[Seventeen]

[X] Try to defuse the situation.
-[X] Praise Mirumoto-san's willingness to begin her assistance to Kitsu-san so promptly, and confess that we feel that there is a great deal to be learned from subtle and trying lessons if one is willing to look for them and strive toward virtue.
-[X] Spend a void point.

 

[Sirrocco]

[X] Try to defuse the situation.
-[X] Praise Mirumoto-san's willingness to begin her assistance to Kitsu-san so promptly, and confess that we feel that there is a great deal to be learned from subtle and trying lessons if one is willing to look for them and strive toward virtue.
-[X] Spend a void point.

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This is us responding to Hanabi's horrible insult of Hinawari... by supporting it and thus offering an insult of our own. You realize this, right? This is pretty seriously dishonorable behavior, as well as being cruel.