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Glory of the Emerald Empire (Legend of the 5 Rings Quest)

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I don't think we know any of the people here well enough to go for direct criticism of them. As I understand things, what Sirocco proposes are basically fighting words, they're so presumptive. Hanabi just left a sliver of plausible deniability and so room to defuse the situation with no one losing face. By being so direct, we remove all pretence, crystallising the insult and making it fully real.

We're here to petition the Dragon and beg them for what's effectively charity. Causing a scene here with one of their samurai of unknown rank and influence probably isn't the best way to make them feel generous.
 
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[X] Try to defuse the situation.
-[X] "Mirumoto-san. I had thought better of you."
-[X] Allow our disappointment in her actions to show in our face and voice - not enough to be improper, but enough to be clearly seen.
-[X] Spend a void point.
 
[x] Try to defuse the situation.
-[X] Spend a void point.

... Seriously, what the hell do you guys think you're doing with the "I thought better of you" thing? That is not defusing the situation. You're outright removing the plausible deniability that was left there which is the only thing keeping it from escalating.
 
[X] Try to defuse the situation.
-[X] "Mirumoto-san. I had thought better of you."
-[X] Allow our disappointment in her actions to show in our face and voice - not enough to be improper, but enough to be clearly seen.
-[X] Spend a void point.

Yes, not nicest or safest option... but, well, safety and nicety are not strong points of being Crab.
 
Alratan said:
I don't think we know any of the people here well enough to go for direct criticism of them. As I understand things, what Sirocco proposes are basically fighting words, they're so presumptive. Hanabi just left a sliver of plausible deniability and so room to defuse the situation with no one losing face. By being so direct, we remove all pretence, crystallising the insult and making it fully real.

We're here to petition the Dragon and beg them for what's effectively charity. Causing a scene here with one of their samurai of unknown rank and influence probably isn't the best way to make them feel generous.
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TMIoverload said:
[x] Try to defuse the situation.
-[X] Spend a void point.

... Seriously, what the hell do you guys think you're doing with the "I thought better of you" thing? That is not defusing the situation. You're outright removing the plausible deniability that was left there which is the only thing keeping it from escalating.
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Ah, disagreement! Excellent!

so, some facts.
- She sounds like our age, perhaps a bit older.
- She basically fangirl squeed over us on first meeting, and then was embarrassed about it.
- She states a belief that we are of the same status

Based on this, she's at our level of status, and (not surprisingly) notably below us in Glory (our Glory is pretty high for our status). If her current behavior is any indication, she's probably a fair bit below us in Honor as well.

Given that, I don't see what's s presumptive about our words. We are essentially offering judgement as a peer - not as a superior. We speak of our own reactions, not of her actions. We're not saying "your behavior is terrible", we're saying "we are disappointed in it." We're not even being specific about what we're disappointed in. Essentially, we're standing on moral authority, as someone who has a higher honor score than she does (or at least than she's acting like she does right now). She's demonstrating a failure in Sincerity and Respect at bare minimum.

More coming, but I keep rewriting it, and I'd at least like to get this part out there.
 
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Sirrocco said:
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The problem is that by acknowledging that she intended to insult Himawari, we're basically forcing Hima's hand. Honor demands she retaliate in some manner if she's most definitely been purposefully insulted in such a manner, which stating our dissapointment does. Given that Mirumoto seems to be both more generally capable with words and a practitioner of a school focused on duels, having an out is good for Himawari.
 
[x] Write in: Wait a minute...come on Sousuke you can do this, it's just talking down two people, both of whom are attractive women, I miss my Tetsubo. Alright so Dragon-chan insulted Lion-chan by implying that she was wasting her lords time just traveling around....but wait that's it?

"What then of Musha Shugyo?"

Let them blink for a moment at my brilliant non-sequitur

"It's not something the Crab do to be sure, but I'm given to understand it's more common up North. A warrior's pilgrimage to travel from place to place learning all they can to become a better samurai and lord. Truly an honourable task for those who are trusted to undertake such things. Yet, I would not say they are forsaking their duties, going from place to place as they do, rather they are fulfilling their greatest of duties to be a superior samurai and weapon for their lord."

Take a drink. Alright Sousuke, you just need to show that travelling is like going on a Musha Shugyo, and how anyone doing so to improve is clearly awesome sauce.

Alright it's not a very Crab notion, but these aren't Crab.

"Now obviously, Kitsu-san isn't on a Musha Shugyo, I would hardly be able to call her Kitsu-san if she was. Still in light of that, I have to admit, I might be on my own version of such a thing, as I traveled up from the South over the Spine of the World I have seen many things and met many interesting people, and I think a much better Samurai for my lord."

There, we indirectly told Kitsu-san that we were alright with her, and Mirumoto-san that she should stop being a Scorpion about things.

Hiruma Sousuke, Absolutely Smooth

No I don't actually believe it either.
 
For the defusing thing... Personally, I'm trying to keep Hanabi from killing Himawari, and in a way that's honorable, rather than dishonorable. It is a very real possibility of the current situation. I also have longer-term goals. I'm trying to cut down on the chances of this happening again in the future, and/or determine that that's not actually possible. I'm also trying to contribute to the moral development of a fellow samurai.
TMIoverload said:
The problem is that by acknowledging that she intended to insult Himawari, we're basically forcing Hima's hand. Honor demands she retaliate in some manner if she's most definitely been purposefully insulted in such a manner, which stating our dissapointment does. Given that Mirumoto seems to be both more generally capable with words and a practitioner of a school focused on duels, having an out is good for Himawari.
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I see what you're saying, but... we have a strong social presence at this table. Given that we're offering censure, Himawari doesn't need to take the next move. Instead, Hanabi pretty much has to respond to us, one way or the other.

Still, this is a difference of opinion on fact, which is pretty much exactly what we have etiquette checks for.

@Winged Knight - Etiquette check request, about the current situation, assuming we express open and obvious disapproval and Hanabi does not back down. I am under the impression that Himawari still has an out, given support from us, to take the moral high road, agree that Hanabi is behaving poorly (with whatever degree of subtlety is necessary), and walk away. TMIoverload is under the impression that in that case, Himawari is pretty much obligated to challenge Hanabi to a duel. Please clarify for us.
 
Cat fight cat fight!


[X] Try to defuse the situation.
-[X] "Mirumoto-san. I had thought better of you."
-[X] Allow our disappointment in her actions to show in our face and voice - not enough to be improper, but enough to be clearly seen.
-[X] Spend a void point
 
What about something that goes in completely the opposite direction as a defusing attempt? Something like this.

[X] Try to defuse the situation.
-[X] Praise Mirumoto-san's willingness to begin her assistance to Kitsu-san so promptly, and confess that we feel that there is a great deal to be learned from subtle and trying lessons if one is willing to look for them and strive toward virtue.
-[X] Spend a void point.

This way, instead of demanding that Hanabi back down directly and pushing Himawari to acknowledge the insult as such, we clearly take the stance that we don't want there to be fighting, widen the sliver of a chance at claiming there's no insult by giving both sides plausibility in claiming that Hanabi was trying some kind of aggressively convoluted social method to enhance Himawari's understanding of the Tao/the nature of humility and duty/some other Dragon bullshit, and implicitly advise the pair of them to be nice.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure this is likely to key off our Sincerity, which is lower than our Courtier (which the other plan uses). Neither plan seems to use Etiquette, which would be ideal, but I'm not sure how to use that here except possibly by politely saying that we're done with our meal and retiring for the night, which only defuses things by implicitly declaring that we have no interest in sitting there while insults fly. Still, if we lack full confidence in our write-ins for other abilities it's likely best to go with the highest available dice pool, so that remains a solid option.
 
Sirrocco said:
Given that, I don't see what's s presumptive about our words. We are essentially offering judgement as a peer - not as a superior. We speak of our own reactions, not of her actions. We're not saying "your behavior is terrible", we're saying "we are disappointed in it." We're not even being specific about what we're disappointed in. Essentially, we're standing on moral authority, as someone who has a higher honor score than she does (or at least than she's acting like she does right now). She's demonstrating a failure in Sincerity and Respect at bare minimum.
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By saying "I had thought better of you", we're certainly asserting our superiority. It's like a parent speaking to a child, or a lord to a servant. Who are we to have a right to be disappointed in her? We don't know her.

I'd say it's significantly more insulting and presumptive than saying 'Your behaviour is terrible.', as it adds on claiming an inappropriate level of superior familiarity to the criticism.
 
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[X] Try to defuse the situation.
-[X] "Mirumoto-san. I had thought better of you."
-[X] Allow our disappointment in her actions to show in our face and voice - not enough to be improper, but enough to be clearly seen.
-[X] Spend a void point.
 
gman391 said:
[] Write in: Wait a minute...come on Sousuke you can do this, it's just talking down two people, both of whom are attractive women, I miss my Tetsubo. Alright so Dragon-chan insulted Lion-chan by implying that she was wasting her lords time just traveling around....but wait that's it?

"What then of Musha Shugyo?"

Let them blink for a moment at my brilliant non-sequitur

"It's not something the Crab do to be sure, but I'm given to understand it's more common up North. A warrior's pilgrimage to travel from place to place learning all they can to become a better samurai and lord. Truly an honourable task for those who are trusted to undertake such things. Yet, I would not say they are forsaking their duties, going from place to place as they do, rather they are fulfilling their greatest of duties to be a superior samurai and weapon for their lord."

Take a drink. Alright Sousuke, you just need to show that travelling is like going on a Musha Shugyo, and how anyone doing so to improve is clearly awesome sauce.

Alright it's not a very Crab notion, but these aren't Crab.

"Now obviously, Kitsu-san isn't on a Musha Shugyo, I would hardly be able to call her Kitsu-san if she was. Still in light of that, I have to admit, I might be on my own version of such a thing, as I traveled up from the South over the Spine of the World I have seen many things and met many interesting people, and I think a much better Samurai for my lord."

There, we indirectly told Kitsu-san that we were alright with her, and Mirumoto-san that she should stop being a Scorpion about things.

Hiruma Sousuke, Absolutely Smooth

No I don't actually believe it either.
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Isn't citing the precedent of a Musho Shugyo the last thing we want to do here.

That explicitly involves renouncing your responsibilities to your lord* and family and becoming a ronin whilst on your warrior pilgrimage of self-discovery.

It's essentially validating Hanabi's point.

* with their permission.
 
[X] Sirrocco

For the moment this seems to be the best way to diffuse the situation, both for the moment, and for the probable later encounters if she is actually our Yandre. Of course, I'm not that good at L5R social dynamics, so let's hope this works.

If the etiquite roll comes back with more information I might change my vote.
 
Sirrocco said:
@Winged Knight - Etiquette check request, about the current situation, assuming we express open and obvious disapproval and Hanabi does not back down. I am under the impression that Himawari still has an out, given support from us, to take the moral high road, agree that Hanabi is behaving poorly (with whatever degree of subtlety is necessary), and walk away. TMIoverload is under the impression that in that case, Himawari is pretty much obligated to challenge Hanabi to a duel. Please clarify for us.
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Etiquette Roll: 6k3=24

Hanabi was basically a few steps away from spitting in Himawari's face, all but saying that the Lion Samurai was wasting her Lord's time by going on a pilgrimage. This suggests quite strongly that Hanabi believes Himawari is being lax in her duties, and since duties are what ultimately makes a Samurai that means Hanabi is calling Himwari's honor in question.

This was really blatant of Hanabi. Sosuke, as you noticed, was shocked by the barely concealed vitriol of the statement. This was clearly meant to rile Himawari right now, but leave Hanabi room later to claim that Himawari overreacted. At this moment, it's obvious to everyone at the table what Hanabi is attempting to do. There's very little of an out available for anyone, actually, save Hanabi herself for explaining after the fact.

Himawari cannot let such an insult go without some response, though as she is Shugenja and only wearing a Wakizashi she has the option to appoint a champion in her stead should a duel happen. You are at a moment right before Himawari will respond, and have a chance to intervene. Direct acknowledgement of the wrongdoing is a toss up. While you might be able to shame Hanabi into giving an apology, which would end this issue quite handily, you might also spur the confrontation toward an actual fight.

So basically, it could go either way.

Bastur2 said:
@Winged Knight I also would like for a sense honor (or is glory) check, so to see their honor level
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Detecting Honor requires a Lore: Bushido/Awareness Roll. So just Rolling raw Awareness...

3d10=19

Nope.
 
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[X] Try to defuse the situation.
-[X] "Mirumoto-san. I had thought better of you."
-[X] Allow our disappointment in her actions to show in our face and voice - not enough to be improper, but enough to be clearly seen.
-[X] Spend a void point.
 
Yeah... that's kind of how I read things too.

I assert that my write-in is the most likely to make Hanabi back down.

Further etiquette check, if I can (thinking is a free action?) Gman's write-in isn't goign to make Hanabi back down. Does it have any real chance of defusing the immediate situation otherwise?
 
Sirrocco said:
Yeah... that's kind of how I read things too.

I assert that my write-in is the most likely to make Hanabi back down.

Further etiquette check, if I can (thinking is a free action?) Gman's write-in isn't goign to make Hanabi back down. Does it have any real chance of defusing the immediate situation otherwise?
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Etiquette Roll: 6k3=31

What Gman is suggesting is showing precedent that what Himawari is doing isn't so odd. True, while on Musha Shugyo you're a Ronin and not expected to tell anyone who you are. However, this is really just a thin state of Ronin. Even as you travel you're not expected to take any action that would harm your Clan, and ultimately your loyalty is still to your Clan. The rigors and trials of the journey are supposed to hone your fighting skills, and usually after about a year you return and show off your new prowess to your Sensei. If your Sensei is impressed enough, they beseech your Daimyo to let you rejoin the Clan. This request is typically granted.

Himawari is traveling while still being recognized as a proper Clan Samurai, but then again Himawari also never claimed she was on pilgrimage to learn further combat techniques. She said she was traveling in order to gain knowledge and experience, with the implication being from the other Clans. That means suffering the trials of life as a Ronin isn't really necessary to achieving her goals, goals which her Lord deemed important enough to grant Himawari permission to travel in the first place.

So the ultimate answer is again a maybe, but it does have the added benefit of showing that there's precedent for similar things and Himawari's Lord is obviously okay with her doing this.
 
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For some reason this quest went suddently unwatched so I missed not one, but two updates. :mad: :(

And man... this situation seems worse than when we where in Kyuden Ikoma. This time is two samurai instead of a samurai against a peasant.

Anwyay. At this point... yes. We're practically assuming Himawari's on Musha Shugyo... so there's no tell in if this is going to be effective, but I like Gman's write in since it has a chance to defuse this situation for the better.

Going "I've thought better of you" is really something you'll heard from a sensei scolding an apprendice (or well, it feels like this), and we're not a sensei. We're a visitor.

[] Gman391

I'll be crossing fingers.
 
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