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Gil and Hakuno's Excellent Adventure [Fate CCC/????]

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Nasu Worldbuilding in a Nutshell.

Nasu: *Is playing Dark Souls*
Takeuchi: *Is playing with Saber Dolls*
Random Employee: Sir, we need more money.
Nasu: Eh.
Takeuchi: Why don't we write something new?
Nasu: Like a CCC sequel where Gilgamesh beats up everyone?
Takeuchi: I was thinking... More Seibah?
Nasu: *Kills Bed of Chaos on NG+7* YES! YES! YES!
Takeuchi: Good! I have some idea's for my waifu here, you can use them.
Nasu: *Realizes what he just agreed to* Er... Throw them on my desk, I'll write whatever it is later.
Random Employee: Shouldn't we work on the Tsukihime Remake, Sir?
Takeuchi: ...
Nasu: ...
Takeuchi and Nasu: *Throws him out a window*
 
EnderofWorlds said:
As Amaterasu showed us, high-level gods are mostly exempt from the time-axis. Basically, the natural phenomenon that would become the first gods became gods when mankind began to worship them, though they immediately existed before they were worshiped because man believed them to exist back then so they did.
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That would mean that humanity not only retroactively created themselves and the gods, but also the planet they currently live on.
EnderofWorlds said:
Really? I rather liked Garden of Avalon and the worldbuilding it provided.
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Saber is SPECIAL! Mai Waifu!
 
notmi said:
That would mean that humanity not only retroactively created themselves and the gods, but also the planet they currently live on.
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Nah, you just gotta realize that whatever natural phenomenon that a god embodied happened, people began to worship it as a god, so then it retroactively became a god that did the thing it was worshiped for. Then when it stopped being worshiped it stopped being a god and went back to just being the natural phenomenon that it was before ascending to godhood.

notmi said:
Saber is SPECIAL! Mai Waifu!
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It really isn't Saber worshipping; literally all of Sir Kay's and Sir Lancelot's segments are all about how blatantly wrong it was for Saber to become this inhuman King for the sake of everybody. Only Merlin was white knighting her, and he was pointed out for being just as inhuman in the book as well as being more like an insect than anything else. The rest is just justification as to how Lancelot and Altria are as badass as they are in canon given how they're born past AoG yet can compare to the likes of Herakles and Iskander.
 
Avalon said:
Isn't that pretty much Exactly what they did when they created Enkidu.

They built an obedient and powerful weapon to counter Gilgamesh. Of course, The entire Gil/Enkidu thing happened and Gil pretty much subverted their weapon. Also, Bull of Heaven after that. Which also got wrecked.

And we also have to remember that not all gods are war gods.
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Hence the again part.
I mean Enkidu kinda made a mess of peoples traps in the legend and didn't really go straight up to trying to bite Gil's face off.

I'm talking mad enhancement 'murder the shit out of blonde things' Enkidu 2.0 with the the added feature of Assuming Direct Control for gods to use if Gil manages to pull some trick out of his ass.

Better yet they have a terminal showing its thought processes so it can't be subverted while they're not piloting.
(As long as someone makes sure to watch the darn thing)

Hell if they want overkill make more then one. (Is there an substantial energy cost to making Enkidu's?)
Its not like they have to worry about this creature turning on them what with the kill switch, mind scanning and direct control feature active.

-Also wave motion eye lasers in case Gil tries to bind them while standing right in front of it.

It also smells like mapo tofu... for that little bit of extra spite. :p
 
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Mortifer said:
Nasu Worldbuilding in a Nutshell.

Nasu: *Is playing Dark Souls*
Takeuchi: *Is playing with Saber Dolls*
Random Employee: Sir, we need more money.
Nasu: Eh.
Takeuchi: Why don't we write something new?
Nasu: Like a CCC sequel where Gilgamesh beats up everyone?
Takeuchi: I was thinking... More Seibah?
Nasu: *Kills Bed of Chaos on NG+7* YES! YES! YES!
Takeuchi: Good! I have some idea's for my waifu here, you can use them.
Nasu: *Realizes what he just agreed to* Er... Throw them on my desk, I'll write whatever it is later.
Random Employee: Shouldn't we work on the Tsukihime Remake, Sir?
Takeuchi: ...
Nasu: ...
Takeuchi and Nasu: *Throws him out a window*
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Can't wait for you guys to encounter Counter Guardian TAKEUCHI...

Lilithium said:
Is Nasu and Takeuchi true otp?
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No, because Takeuchi loves only Seiba. His heart is filled with nothing but Seiba, his mind is consumed with nothing but Seiba, his soul's origin is nothing but Seiba herself. His very existence is devoted to the existence known only as 'Seiba', and thus can he value nothing but Seiba. Everything he does is colored with the concept of 'Seiba'.
 
EnderofWorlds said:
They were the last remnants of Enkidu, chains made of his own flesh to bind the Bull of Heaven as both he and Gilgamesh held it down for the latter to give the killing blow. When the gods reverted Enkidu back into clay, Gilgamesh reforged these chains with his own two hands and brought the mighty gods of Uruk down low in subjugation for their crimes against him. Thus were the gods of Uruk maimed and mutilated, reduced to but former shades of their glory; though there was one who managed to come out far less scathed than the others. That god would eventually become Divine Spirit YHWH and would be one of the few gods that survived for a while after the end of their age.
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...Please tell me they weren't more powerful than Amaterasu.
I don't want to have to find my "Fuck Exponents" post.
 
Nanimani said:
...Please tell me they weren't more powerful than Amaterasu.
I don't want to have to find my "Fuck Exponents" post.
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A servant under the normal grail system is never stronger then a god. Possessing the power to do so would render the grail meaningless...

However, I feel this odd need to point out, if you wanna be technical, Gilgamesh himself is stronger then most of the gods...
 
GhostKing 666 said:
That exists because the GoB gets retroactively updated on every "treasure" of human creation so even if it gets created sometime in the future it will also exist in Gil's vault.
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Um, no. That's not how it works
*digs through BL*
Gate of Babylon

ギルガメッシュが貯蔵したものは財宝というより、"人類の知恵の原点"そのものである。

英雄王の蔵にないものがあるとすれば、それは"新人類が生み出す、まったく新しい概念によるもの"他天体の知的生命体による文明技術によるもの"のどちらかとなる。


なので飛行機も潜水艦も当然完備。

西暦以前であれ人の欲望は変わらず、また、魔力が健在だった頃の古代の技術は近代の技術に劣ってはいなかった。

人が夢見る"希望の道具"はたいてい実現し、その都度、王の手によって接収されていた訳だ。


What Gilgamesh has collected is not mere riches, but rather the very "origins of human wisdom".

The only things missing from his vault would be items produced with completely new concepts by a new human race, and items produced with extraterrestrial intelligence and technology.


Therefore, it is even furnished with airplanes and submarines.

The desires of ancient humans were not so different from our own, and because magical energy was alive and well in that era, their technology was in no way inferior to that of the modern age.

The "Instruments of Hope" that people dreamed of were all realized, and it goes without saying that in every single case they were requisitioned by the King's hand.

(Forum Source - from his CCC Personal Collector: EX skill)
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Not retroactive addition, but rather already he has the ideal version of everything since he possesses the very origin/concept of pretty much everything.
 
Geez louise any worldbuilding involving Nasu is a fucking mess. I'll just assume everything works off the rule of cool because whenever I get an explanation on the Nasuverse world it just makes me sigh.
 
Meh said:
Um, no. That's not how it works
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That's exactly what it means; since GoB is the 'origin of human wisdom', anything that humanity creates is within the vault; even if it was conceived long after Gilgamesh died.

A Living Person said:
Wasn't Amaterasu (Full Power) implied to be stronger than the Big Three? I remember somewhere reading that...
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Amaterasu full power in the Moon Cell which buffs gods can lays the smackdown on regular Arc; though I personally wouldn't put odds in her favor against 100% Arc, much less Archtype Earth or ORT.
 
EnderofWorlds said:
That's exactly what it means; since GoB is the 'origin of human wisdom', anything that humanity creates is within the vault; even if it was conceived long after Gilgamesh died.
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No, because those things, in the Nasuverse, were conceived and acquired by Gilgamesh before his death. Things aren't added, they're already there.
The desires of ancient humans were not so different from our own, and because magical energy was alive and well in that era, their technology was in no way inferior to that of the modern age.

The "Instruments of Hope" that people dreamed of were all realized, and it goes without saying that in every single case they were requisitioned by the King's hand.
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Meh said:
No, because those things, in the Nasuverse, were conceived and acquired by Gilgamesh before his death. Things aren't added, they're already there.
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Oh my god please can we just accept what the GM says? We will be here forever if we try to make sense of the arbitrary flavor text of the nasuverse.
 
Illusion said:
Oh my god please can we just accept what the GM says? We will be here forever if we try to make sense of the arbitrary flavor text of the nasuverse.
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meh, fine.

GoB is also a mess anyway considering this
- 大なり小なり、様々な神話の英雄たちは
ギルガメッシュの伝説から派生したものだ。
であるなら、ギルガメッシュは英雄たちが持つ宝具の
原型・・・・・・各神話ごとにアレンジされる前の、
大本の宝を所持している事になる。
逆説ではあるが、原典であるギルガメッシュが持っていな
ければ、発展系であるその後の英雄たちの手に宝具は
伝わらないからである。
(Forum Source - CCC Keyword 02, King of Heroes)

- Gist:

Gilgamesh is the original, other heroes are his offshoots → other heroes have NPs → therefore Gilgamesh, as the original, must have had the prototypes of their NPs, because otherwise where else would the NPs have come from? → it becomes so that he does.

GoB is the manifestation of this rule, so that it doesn't just contain what he acquired when he was alive. At least that seems to be the currently agreed upon interpretation among the Yamato.
(Forum Source)

- More or less, the heroes of various myths are derived from Gilgamesh's legend. As such, Gilgamesh possesses the prototypes of the Noble Phantasms that heroes carry... the original treasures from before every legend was arranged. Though it may be a paradox, unless the original, Gilgamesh, possesses it, it cannot be handed down as the Noble Phantasm possessed by the later heroes who were derived from him.
(Translation of the above Japanese by breakfastcontinental)

- "Although paradoxical, if Gilgamesh, the original Hero, did not possess it, then the later Heroes would not have their Noble Phantasms passed down to them, as they were extensions of Gilgamesh's original legend."

(IRC cleaning up of above by food)


- Kinda late to this whole thing, but just wanted to note that the "owning humanity's stuff" and "having prototypes of all NPs" are actually two separate clauses. One is not the result of the other.


He has the prototypes of all NPs because his legend is what those of other heroes are derived from = he is the original owner of all of their legends (NPs). This is where the "NPs get retroactively added to his possession" part comes from.


The owning all of humanity's stuff part comes from his hoardi―――uh, I mean, adjudicating.

(Forum Source)
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- When Kiara gets indignant and asks him if he's capable of moving faster than light, Gil calls her an idiot, and that she should have known he'd have ships of light among his treasures. Then rants for a while about how just because he likes the classics doesn't mean he doesn't keep up with recent developments, and that if there's a technique that sends somebody to the edges of space then there will be a Noble Phantasm corresponding to it, because his what his vault really holds is the prototype of all human knowledge.


Basically, he has FTL starships because humans will at some point develop FTL starships. Or at least, are capable of it.

(Forum Source)
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Contradictions, multiple clauses, etc. are the flavor of Nasu's lore, people just pick which one they go with.
 
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EnderofWorlds said:
>Avalon (the sheathe) bring Saber to the Other Side of the World to make her untouchable by anything
>Astolfo's hippogriff can travel to the Other Side of the World as its special ability and take him there
>Gate of Babylon has the originals of all Noble Phantasms, so it would also have the Original HippogriffTM​ inside it as well

Therefore, we can conclude without a doubt, that Gate of Babylon > Avalon and that Gilgamesh can in fact beat Saber when she has it. Problem? :V
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...But the hippogriff is a "Beast", not a "Treasure" or anything that "Came from human ingenuity".
It shouldn't be in the GoB.
EnderofWorlds said:
...
...
.........
...........................................
*Remains silent* I'm Sorry
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...For fuck's sake.
Nanimani said:
God level:
capable of feats like moving faster than light and the reversal of time. She can reduce the distance from the Horsehead Nebula back to the original galaxy to zero to instantly cross the distance.[6]​ Compared to an A rank Servant, she has nine percent of its power with a single tail. If she were to increase in tails, each one would increase her power exponentially by nine.
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So, if we assume an A Rank Servant has 100 power, a divine being would have
(((((((99​)9​)9​)9​)9​)9​)9​)9​

Or: Well, I tried to put it into a calculator, but it couldn't calculate it. Went to infinity on the fourth tail.
With three tails and that formula, she'd have 196,627,050,475,552,913,618,075,908,526,912,116,283,103,450,944,214,766,927,315,415,537,966,391,196,809% of an A rank Servant's power.

Assuming an A rank Servant has A ranks in everything, Hercules would be a good example of one, so she's that much stronger than Hercules using only three tails, an inestimably small part of her full power.
Fuck, Amaterasu's overpowered.
Like, really, really, REALLY overpowerd. Like, what the fuck, Nasu. Don't use exponents like that.
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Also, this.
She is very powerful being who could only be overcome through the strength of several Servants, and within Fate/Extra and Fate/Extra CCC, Arcueid Brunestud is the about the only one alone capable of bringing her down "to circumstances where its possible to defeat her, however little the chances may be."
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Note that Gilgamesh, in Origin Form, is in CCC. That's where Origin Form comes from, in fact. I would think he didn't forget that when saying ths.

Frankly, as much as I use this post as a typical response to things like, as it originally was, people saying their Servants could kill gods, god-killing is a thing in the Nasuverse, and I really don't see a lot of people who fought gods in mythology doing much to that.

So Amaterasu is just bullfuckingshitwtfwhyhaxpowerful for no apparent reason. Someone made a joke about her being TYPE-SUN or something, and frankly, that makes more sense than her just being another god, even if a high-powered one.
Because we are getting to the point that she can easily dodge attacks that destroy hundreds of lightyears worth of space, and things just get fucking stupid if that's the average level of the gods back then.
 
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Nanimani said:
...But the hippogriff is a "Beast", not a "Treasure" or anything that "Came from human ingenuity".
It shouldn't be in the GoB.

...For fuck's sake.

Also, this.

Note that Gilgamesh, in Origin Form, is in CCC.

Frankly, as much as I use this post as a typical response to things like, as it originally was, people saying their Servants could kill gods, god-killing is a thing in the Nasuverse, and I really don't see a lot of people who fought gods in mythology doing much to that.

So Amaterasu is just bullfuckingshitwtfwhyhaxpowerful for no apparent reason. Someone made a joke about her being TYPE-SUN or something, and frankly, that makes more sense than her just being another god, even if a high-powered one.
Because we are getting to the point that she can easily dodge Galaxy-destroying attacks, and things just get fucking stupid if that's the average level of the gods back then.
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Shiki can kill servants. :V
 
Meh said:
No, because those things, in the Nasuverse, were conceived and acquired by Gilgamesh before his death. Things aren't added, they're already there.
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Except that the FTL ship can't possibly be made in ancient babylonian times, because Gilgamesh's vision of the future involved humanity reaching beyond the stars in the distant future. Meaning that ancient babylon couldn't have made his FTL ship, so he got it after the fact because GoB the Noble Phantasm has all of humanity's knowledge and wisdom within it, despite it being made/discovered far after his passing.

Nanimani said:
...But the hippogriff is a "Beast", not a "Treasure" or anything that "Came from human ingenuity".
It shouldn't be in the GoB.
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It's still a Noble Phantasm, and by word of CCC Gilgamesh has all Noble Phantasms because all heroes are but imitations of him, therefore they had to have gotten their Noble Phantasms from him because they can't be NPs unless they came from Gil and blah blah Plato's Origin of Forms blah blah blah.

Nanimani said:
...For fuck's sake.
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To be fair, Moon Cell buffs gods hardcore because it's an information world and that kind of world works best with the gods whole 'formed from belief' deal that's the backbone of their existence. RL Amaterasu probably wouldn't be as stupid powerful, though still a high-class Divine Spirit that's super powerful.

And thus ends the Nasu debates, and starts the writing; so sayeth the GM.
 
EnderofWorlds said:
Except that the FTL ship can't possibly be made in ancient babylonian times, because Gilgamesh's vision of the future involved humanity reaching beyond the stars in the distant future. Meaning that ancient babylon couldn't have made his FTL ship, so he got it after the fact because GoB the Noble Phantasm has all of humanity's knowledge and wisdom within it, despite it being made/discovered far after his passing.
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Except that it's said right there on the thing I quoted that they did make super tech in Ancient Babylonia thanks to ubersuper AoG Magic.

But, anyway, like I said and posted, things are contradictory, just go with the one you pick.
 
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