Ghosts of the Ancestors. (A Cultivation Riot Quest).

So, now that we're nearing the end of the third months since I've started this quest and we just passed the halfway point for the tutorial turns, I've wanted to ask for some feedback.

What do you like about this quest? what do you dislike? Do you think anything specific needs improvement (suggestions are always welcomed)? Give me the good, the bad and the ugly, even a everything's good/suck lets me know if we're going the right direction.

In particular, I want to ask about the floor for purchasing things/investing into the second step, I put that mechanic there to stop just 1/2 posters form emptying a vital and powerful resource but I want some feedback on if 15 is the right number or if we should go lower to ease buying things (or even higher to make sure the thread is in agreement).
What I like:
-The thresholds for success are achievable with a bit of work, so I don't think they need much if any adjustment. The fact that some actions can potentially reduce said thresholds also helps.
-We have a good amount of options currently, each type of ghost being able to do a few things as needed.

What could be improved:
-More options for socializing. We haven't really done much with our social links yet, maybe make it more obvious what we or Li can do with them?
-Maybe some kind of rumor mill thing to give us an idea what's going on in the sect? Doesn't have to be anything huge, but could be interesting to hear what our fellows are gossiping about. Could potentially be affected by our Fellowship skill, with a higher level meaning people are more willing to let us know about interesting stuff that's going down?

Also this is more of a question than something to improve, but right now Li has three of his own actions separate from us ghosts. Will he ever be able to increase that number as he grows stronger?
 
What do you like about this quest? what do you dislike? Do you think anything specific needs improvement (suggestions are always welcomed)? Give me the good, the bad and the ugly, even a everything's good/suck lets me know if we're going the right direction.

Personally this is my least favourite of your three quests, and I think the reason is probably the characters.

Simply put, Guang Li doesn't yet feel like a true person, he's just a body for the ghosts to puppet and pump power into.

In Distant Wars Shikatu feels like an actual person, AND the world has been defined and elaborated on quite a bit. In Iron Oath, I could say the same with Aurelia, and you've also taken quite a few steps to make the teachers, our retainers, our would-be-recruits AND the power system interesting and engaging.


Here all I can say is that there's a very generic xianxia system, that Guang Li is the last of his clan trying to gain strenght to... survive? get revenge?

And that's it. The sect isn't interesting yet. the other characters aren't interesting. the cultivation system is not really interesting, as it's basically "Gather qi to condense in 9 steps with 4 sub-stages each, do body refinement of the normal or blood/Guang variety".

It's... boring.

In Distant Stars, helped by the fact we effectively started at the third step, you showed plenty of variety in what cultivation can do, and then we discovered various side-paths, while also developing the empire both culturally and technologically.

in Iron Oath we discovered techniques, interesting artifacts (we started with the ones for training and to communicate), but we also saw more interesting aspects of the system like the Legacies and ESPECIALLY the Oaths.

There's nothing like that here. And nothing much happened during most of those turns, except for the one conflict with the Young Master.

sorry if I'm being negative. There's potential here, but I feel like it will take many relatively boring turns to get there. Maybe a timeskip or longer turns letting us achieve more in each would improve that? Then again, if I'm the only one thinking this there's obviously not much of a point in changing things.




The one part that I *don't* like is that it's possible for individual members of the horde to make suboptimal choices (specifically, with which kinds of qi to use for things) that will then cause a loss in long-term effectiveness that we simply cannot recover. It's a riot quest. It's fine if there are choices that wind up being worthless. Having interesting and crunchy mechanics to figure out and all work towards is cool. Even the vote-to-buy system is fine, because it at least requires buy-in from a decent number people. Hoenstly, 15 seems like it's been working. We've been able to buy the things we need, and I haven't seen a lot of unhappiness about it. The other stuff, though... the fact that someone could just say "I think I'm just going to clear this meridian with pure qi today", and thereby effectively cost us one meridian-clear's worth of advancement forever? That's a bit of a feelsbad.

I mean, I think it's literally only happened the once, with a bit of pure qi body cultivation, but it still felt bad. So... maybe later on have one of the "advance what ghosts can do" unlocks let us go back and reforge some of that stuff with the "right" qi rather than the "wrong" qi? It would even be okay if it came at a bit of a surcharge in ghost effort - just as long as it was *possible* to fix these issues.
The main problem I can think of that comes from the nature of riot quest is Clear Meridian action.

a single vote there consumes 5 qi points. a single trolling player, or even just an hasty one, can waste all the qi produced by multiple players (3 for normal qi, I tihnk 8 or so for Yin qi?), and a couple such players could outright ruin things.

Or, for another example, there's that -5 hp wrath options.

I think there should be some kind of limitation put on those actions. Most actions are fine, it's not a problem if a player takes a suboptimal action, but some can be so detrimental that they neutralize the efforts of MANY coordinated players, and that COULD become a problem in the future. We had a minor example of this before with I think a player or two taking clear meridians in the beginning wasting a lot of qi, but that wasn't that big of a deal. It COULD become a big deal in the future.
 
I mean, I think it's literally only happened the once, with a bit of pure qi body cultivation, but it still felt bad. So... maybe later on have one of the "advance what ghosts can do" unlocks let us go back and reforge some of that stuff with the "right" qi rather than the "wrong" qi? It would even be okay if it came at a bit of a surcharge in ghost effort - just as long as it was *possible* to fix these issues
I am not inherently opposed to give the option to "fix" things, I get the feeling Of wanting to perfect things. I'll start workshopping it, figure out the balance and stuff. Thankfully, it isn't something too urgent.

...and, similarly, I feel like it should be possible to lock certain options as a matter of policy. If we decide that our long-term strategy does *not* involve growing claws (or any other upgrade that comes with a baked-in downside that isn't just resource expenditure), I'd like there to be some way for the playerbase as a whole to decide that and establish it so that we don't have some rando show up 12 turns from now, grab a wrath ghost, say "Oh, cool! Claws!" and immediately roll for it.
This is on the other hand, is something I think is needed. Just giving you the option to completely lock unwanted options I think would be a big QOL improvement as some options do have downsides and some ability to guide the greater collective is likely needed.

The lock/unlock function would be behind a threshold of players voting for it, likely fifteen.

Also this is more of a question than something to improve, but right now Li has three of his own actions separate from us ghosts. Will he ever be able to increase that number as he grows stronger?
Yes, they are few and far between but there are a few, ascending to FE is one, pushing far enough into BC can also give one (several actually if you push deep enough).

-Maybe some kind of rumor mill thing to give us an idea what's going on in the sect? Doesn't have to be anything huge, but could be interesting to hear what our fellows are gossiping about. Could potentially be affected by our Fellowship skill, with a higher level meaning people are more willing to let us know about interesting stuff that's going down?
I'll at least give this a try, the expedition to the caves at least gives me an excuse to test a rumor mill of what happened there.

sorry if I'm being negative. There's potential here, but I feel like it will take many relatively boring turns to get there. Maybe a timeskip or longer turns letting us achieve more in each would improve that? Then again, if I'm the only one thinking this there's obviously not much of a point in changing things.
Its valid criticism and it's something that can be improved, more scenes of Guang Li living in the sect and his life would do well to develop the world around him. I'm not sure exactly what I can do to make the cultivation system itself more exiting but I might just shorten the Qi condensation path, so you'll get to the somewhat more interesting parts faster, something to think about anyways.

And I'm glad this came up now rather then twenty turns in where correcting would have been so much harder.
 
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I do like the method of how spirit roots and Qi Gathering and types of Qi work, I am almost jealous I don't have something so clean cut for my quest.

I do think there should be more "cut scenes" showing Guang Li interacting with others or the Sects systems. Like his last interaction with the Library felt just about perfect in terms of being interesting versus useful.

But like you have him doing jobs for the Sect and we barely have any idea what he is doing. Nor are we aware of what his day to day life is like, which means if something disrupts it we are not clued in.

For votes that are disruptive? Since we are ghost ancestors acting randomly from Guang Li's perspective could one ghost vote to block another ghosts actions? It wastes ghost power but if someone makes a mistake another ghost can undo it and the narrative is the two ghosts disagree over the matter and "wasting" their time fighting each other?

Down side is it lets someone be an asshole in another way of course. Not sure if it is better or just different.
 
Following up on what some others have said, Li is largely still a blank slate to us despite having been around him for months. It might be good to get a better idea of what he's like as a person, and how our decisions in the quest have affected his personality.

On the possibility of people voting disruptively or doing something pig-headed like deliberately spending HP/Qi we don't have on actions, it hasn't really happened yet has it? At the beginning there were a few people who went for actions that cost HP without knowing how much we had to spare, but in general we've been pretty good about keeping things 'within budget' so to speak. It'd be worth keeping an eye on it just in case, but for now I would say that we can leave it as is.
 
Or, heck, just use the lock-out feature to say things like "as a matter of policy, we will only roll for meridians with Yin. We will only roll for Body Cultivation with Fire. We will only roll for breakthroughs with Water" or whatever... and then if we find a better form of qi, we'd have some similar vote-thing that would let us change the policy at that time.

This is on the other hand, is something I think is needed. Just giving you the option to completely lock unwanted options I think would be a big QOL improvement as some options do have downsides and some ability to guide the greater collective is likely needed.

The lock/unlock function would be behind a threshold of players voting for it, likely fifteen.
For locking Meridian Clearing option, I'd suggest "Clearing Meridian votes not using Yin Qi intentionally auto-fail".
So we can advanced the "+x because it failed x times previously" boost with cheap qis before doing the actual attempts with Yin.
 
For votes that are disruptive? Since we are ghost ancestors acting randomly from Guang Li's perspective could one ghost vote to block another ghosts actions? It wastes ghost power but if someone makes a mistake another ghost can undo it and the narrative is the two ghosts disagree over the matter and "wasting" their time fighting each other?

Down side is it lets someone be an asshole in another way of course. Not sure if it is better or just different.
im not sure its a good idea to open that can of worms, letting players interfere with one another like that feels like its has the potential to introduce some bad behaviors and tones into whats supposed to be a fun quest.
 
So far I like this quest, but Guang Li feels a bit like a prop for us ghosts to act upon.
Give the lad some personality please!

I dislike the idea of a player spending a vote to block another player's vote; it feels against the spirit of a Riot Quest.
So far despite my sometimes internal screaming about people spending resources we don't have yet we are truly doing well with economizing.
My only true concern early on was people draining all of our hp before we knew how much we had to work with, these days we are usually a slight negative but nothing that truly hurts us (yet).
 
On the possibility of people voting disruptively or doing something pig-headed like deliberately spending HP/Qi we don't have on actions, it hasn't really happened yet has it? At the beginning there were a few people who went for actions that cost HP without knowing how much we had to spare, but in general we've been pretty good about keeping things 'within budget' so to speak. It'd be worth keeping an eye on it just in case, but for now I would say that we can leave it as is.
There were two people who decided that they were not willing to be patient on physical cultivation, and between the two of them cultivated one point of something using pure qi before we even had any fire qi. Like, we knew what fire qi was. We knew what it did. We just hadn't gotten any yet. I don't recall any fo the other details, but I do recall that it was really kind of frustrating.

For locking Meridian Clearing option, I'd suggest "Clearing Meridian votes not using Yin Qi intentionally auto-fail".
So we can advanced the "+x because it failed x times previously" boost with cheap qis before doing the actual attempts with Yin.
Better:
- Rolled Clear Meridian actions always use Yin Qi
- Autofail cultivation actions of all sorts always use Pure Qi.
- Physical cultivation always uses Fire qi
- Breakthrough actions... I think that prefers water qi, but I'm not actually sure. I defer to whoever it is that's tracking this stuff.
 
There were two people who decided that they were not willing to be patient on physical cultivation, and between the two of them cultivated one point of something using pure qi before we even had any fire qi. Like, we knew what fire qi was. We knew what it did. We just hadn't gotten any yet. I don't recall any fo the other details, but I do recall that it was really kind of frustrating.


Better:
- Rolled Clear Meridian actions always use Yin Qi
- Autofail cultivation actions of all sorts always use Pure Qi.
- Physical cultivation always uses Fire qi
- Breakthrough actions... I think that prefers water qi, but I'm not actually sure. I defer to whoever it is that's tracking this stuff.
I must have missed that in my initial readthrough. I can understand being annoyed, so I'd be willing to do something to prevent that from happening again.

As for your suggested rules, I'd note that for body refining blood qi is better than fire qi (both double progress and benefits, but blood also adds an additional point of Con and HP). Once we're able to reliably get more than a trickle of blood qi at a time, we may want to revise that to use blood whenever possible
 
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Breakthrough actions... I think that prefers water qi, but I'm not actually sure. I defer to whoever it is that's tracking this stuff.
Water is best at condensing qi, yeah, but it's marginal enough of an edge that I'm not super bothered about it, and we've been really good about using water qi for it anyway, so there's really no need to make a rule for it.
 
Water is best at condensing qi, yeah, but it's marginal enough of an edge that I'm not super bothered about it, and we've been really good about using water qi for it anyway, so there's really no need to make a rule for it.
I get that we've been doing pretty well on this one. I do. I've actually been pretty impressed at how well the qi ghosts are all coordinating with one another about things like this.

I just get twitchy.
 
I get that we've been doing pretty well on this one. I do. I've actually been pretty impressed at how well the qi ghosts are all coordinating with one another about things like this.

I just get twitchy.
Like, last time we ran the numbers as long as more than half of it gets done with water it is arguably more progress efficient to use some pure qi in there, especially at the higher end of each realm.
 
For votes that are disruptive? Since we are ghost ancestors acting randomly from Guang Li's perspective could one ghost vote to block another ghosts actions? It wastes ghost power but if someone makes a mistake another ghost can undo it and the narrative is the two ghosts disagree over the matter and "wasting" their time fighting each other?

im not sure its a good idea to open that can of worms, letting players interfere with one another like that feels like its has the potential to introduce some bad behaviors and tones into whats supposed to be a fun quest.
Yeah I would also veto being able to block other votes. Like from experience I was in a riot class that involved making a planet/space thing, and the votes would be against themselves causing them to cancel eachother out(one up, one down. one gather, one expel). Or like how in that quest I would constantly be voting to condense the planet I believe because I wanted to make a black hole kinda deal, since I didn't want just a normalish type of planet, But that ended up really pissing one person off because they wanted a normalish planet. So I eventually switched what I was voting but that was only after the person blow up in thread, and I realized that it was actually causing them distress, and caused me to not really care that much about the quest anymore. So I would rather just not open a similar bag of worms in this quest.
 
Like, last time we ran the numbers as long as more than half of it gets done with water it is arguably more progress efficient to use some pure qi in there, especially at the higher end of each realm.
Okay. Fair point. I'll accept that there's not a real need to do it for the breakthrough specifically. That one in particular has to be a group effort anyway, which is already a pretty solid control against one or two randos jumping in and screwing things up.

For the other stuff, though, and for deciding that no, really, we never want to get this or that potential upgrade? For those I think it still has value.
 
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One place that could be improved is the shop, the way riot voters work alot of folks just drop their vote and dont enter the thread untill an update comes , which makes it hard to get the necessary 15 votes.
 
One place that could be improved is the shop, the way riot voters work alot of folks just drop their vote and dont enter the thread untill an update comes , which makes it hard to get the necessary 15 votes.
Possibly have "shop vote" be a separate section? Have a "buy nothing" option? That way the people who are paying attention tot he shop could have a legit vote on what to buy (anything that over half of the shop voters choose to buy) and the folks who aren't paying attention to the shop but just want to contribute their part don't gum it all up?
 
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