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salo most likely just hated the fact zaunn was part of pitover and was just like yeah lets get rid of the problem that blew up a barraide and our sherif and a lot of our enforcers
Get Jinxed: A Tale of Mental Instability and Poor Decisions (Arcane/League of Legends)
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Another thing I was just thinking is that some of Silco's actions make a bit more sense (not necessarily morally, but strategically) if he's assuming that topside has already weaponized hextech. Which would make sense from his perspective - topside has this great new wonder toy, why wouldn't their first thought be to weaponize it to ensure Zaun stays under their boot? Sure they say they don't, and despite having Marcus in his pocket he doesn't learn any details about it, but this really just means his intelligence isn't good enough to learn what their capabilities are, which would make him more cautious.
For all he knows they could wipe Zaun off the map with the push of a button. This would explain why he doesn't really put any pressure on topside for official concessions during the 6-7 year timeskip. Since it seemed to me like he was gearing up for something soon in Episode 3.
For all he knows they could wipe Zaun off the map with the push of a button. This would explain why he doesn't really put any pressure on topside for official concessions during the 6-7 year timeskip. Since it seemed to me like he was gearing up for something soon in Episode 3.
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I always assumed after ep 3 he was trying to establish his foothold on zaunn and repair damage to his org cause well jinx did blow up his one place with shimmer so he might need a place to make more to replace what he lost and also to build things like his chem-tanks
Man I should not be visiting this thread except for thread marks when I haven't finished S2 yet 
jwolfe_beta
Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord
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It's rather telling that Silco apparently never managed to find any other leader-grade individuals aside from Sevika (even if she's not that charismatic) that actually believed in the idea of Zaun.
What negotiations? By all indications from the bridge fight aftermath at the start of the series, Zaun got its ass kicked and had to retreat, gaining nothing. The only agreement seemed to be Vander's under-the-table deal with Grayson to the tune of 'I keep my people from bothering Piltover, you don't come down here to kick our **** in as often'.
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Yeah I think it was this initially but also it shouldn't have taken 6-7 years? He seemed like he was in a way better position post-timeskip than he was in episode 3, but in episode 3 it seemed like he was just about ready to go. Which would make sense if he thought Piltover had also gotten much stronger. And the delay he did need to rebuilt would give time for Jayce and Viktor to actually have something to show from Hextech.
I'm not sure if this is your meaning but yeah I had... if anyone's familiar with PGtE Amadeus' frustrations with heroes about Ekko.
Oh sure you can put together a bunch of former addicts and turn them into something not just functional but essentially flawless while stumbling across a tree that can live in the fissures and functions as both a home and food source. And you can stumble across the former head of the Piltover council and bond with him and he'll be instantly be won over and come home with you. But Silco and Sevika are the bad guys because they act like that won't work for them.
There's the institution of the Lanes. It's not at all clear what those are. I was assuming it was some sort of institutionalized criminal underground, which was likely working by stealing stuff that was physically in Zaun but the property of Piltover people or institutions. Something like the miners now regularly taking a cut of the ore they mine under the table, someone taking a cut of any trade going through the Sun Gates, etc.
Yes, as I said, it was not solution by any means, and Zaun is still ultimately getting fucked over.
Whatever the details of the deal are, it's clear that average life in Zaun improved compared What Silco and Vander grew up with, and Piltover only allowed that much because, as I said, the revolution, catastrophic loss it might have been, clearly proved that Zaun was willing and capable of making trouble.
Even a war they win conclusively is terribly expensive for the rulers of Topside, for a multitude of reasons.
In order for any deal to have been made at all, the enforcers and their bosses would have had to consider the alternative worse. They didn't lighten up, however marginally, for no reason.
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I say silco's a villain for his drug smuggling, his abuse of the people of zaunn (cause well look at the people affected by his shimmer). like those two generally are the things cause its like how does this make zaunn better to have your country become this hellhole
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Oh, you misunderstand me
Vander's Zaun as it existed isn't a solution either, I never claimed otherwise
The problem with Vander is that he has fundamentally given up on a brighter future, though somewhat understandably so given what he's been through
He's just holding things together enough that they don't get significantly worse, and doing a somewhat decent job of it
But there's little to no hope of anything actually improving in Vander's Zaun, he's too scared of rocking the boat
I'm just responding to the whole "what choice did Silco have but to get in bed with the Chembarons?" question by considering if there were indeed other choices
Vander's community could have been the ground for a new grassroots movement
The problem is that would have taken time and trust that Silco was not capable of giving, due to his own baggage
And said hypothetical grassroots movement would have had its own challenges, it's not an immediate "everything turned out fine and they lived happily ever after"
As well as noting that even had Silco unreservedly won, the people of Zaun itself wouldn't benefit from it due to the new system of exploitation he would have created to replace the old one
Fighting to get Zaun on the same level field as Piltover is going to take more than just convincing Jayce, Cassandra, Caitlyn, Mel and Heimerdinger that we are "one of the good ones"
If we were only concerned with making a better life for ourselves and our immediate circle that'd be enough, but if we want to improve life in Zaun itself then we are going to have to rock the boat
I don't think that the solution is in unrestrained blood, bombs and shimmer though, that doesn't head in a good direction, an interesting one perhaps, but not a good one
That's not me saying that we ignore the real harm that Piltover causes Zaun in the name of being a good little Zaunite
There's corrupt Enforcers and Merchant houses to overthrow and a system that needs restructuring
And once Hextech gets invented Noxus is going to come knocking sooner or later, so I fully expect us to meet the quota on punching fascists
But I think that's compatible with also winning over and working with certain people within Piltover, alongside groups within Zaun like Ekko's presumed future Firelights
Revolutions are vastly more successful when they have support from the inside
People in Piltover who can and will help if they are reached categorically do exist, we know them by name
So why not make use of that?
Like,
The Kiramann's apparently contribute most of the Enforcer's funding, or at least a significant chunk of it, given Caitlyn used her family's funding to browbeat them into letting Vi in
Granted, the fact that the actual police are effectively privatized and in the pocket of one of the Councilors is kinda horrifying, but it's also incredibly useful if Caitlyn and later Cassandra start using that influence in our favor
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in the end their is no good way of fixing zaunns issues which is its poor, it has no unity (silco tried to force the unity and well that never works), it got a group of crime lords who have a strangle hold on parts of it, silco looking to expolit anything that benefits his goal in which cause he will add fuel to the fire to make it brighter and its resources being taken to pitover
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Yeah again I don't disagree, but this is a quest and we're a villain in canon so that is not necessarily fixed. What I was expressing is that it's a hell of a lot easier to be morally pure when you happen to find the tree of fixing economic problems.
Vander hasn't given up. He just thinks the children are the future. In the good timeline it looks like it worked out. Where each of them grew the tech the made Zaun a better place. That may be due to Heindinger and Silcos help, not sure.
Thing is they'd be repeating what they did the first time. They got all the miners together and stormed the bridge only to lose massively.
Is it? We have little idea how good or bad it was back then. We just know they were miners and that may have stopped post rebellion.
Honestly have no idea why they keep Zaun. Only reason I can think of is inertia. We had this city we alr bled for it so no way we let it go independent.
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true still think silco could of done things less evil but well that is a matter of debate I guess
Respectfully, I dont think this angle is going to work for one very important reason. One that is likely to be an unpopular position to take, but that is true nevertheless and must be put forth honestly.
That being: The named Piltover Cast, the ones in a position to potentially initiate change, are just plain horrible people, no two ways about it. Worse than Silco by every metric we can measure, and will be utterly uninterested in helping us no matter what we do.
I understand people love these characters (for reasons that continue to baffle me), so let me explain.
-Heimderdinger: As one of the original founders of Piltover as a distinct entity, leader of it's inventors academy, and a longtime member of the council ... Heimer has spent, literally, centuries happily overseeing an oligarchic hellscape where the rich exploit and abuse an entrapped underclass, allowing them to suffer without ever so much as lifting a finger. He had a hand in designing the entire horrid affair in the first place, and almost certainly benefitted from the whole arrangement, working alongside the wealthy houses. (Academies are expensive, after all, and the technologies he and his pupils invent have myriad benefits to merchants), and they both benefit from the cheap labour/resources of a controlled Zaun. Given his involvement in the very foundations of the city's institutions and his long place of primacy in it's government, it is impossible to say that he was somehow unaware of the circumstances in Zaun. And, knowing exactly what was going on (After all, he would have had to sign off on most of it) he was perfectly content to let them suffer. Either because he didnt care, or he actively approved of it. Even if one wanted to be extremely generous in light of his stint with Ekko, one would at least have to admit that he was negligent to the point of absurdity and any Ignorance of his was Willfull ignorance. He might be the worst of them all, just for the sheer breadth of harm hes done over the time he's had.
-Mel: Happily, knowingly, upholds and benefits from the abusive status quo, getting ludicrously rich off the backs of the lower classes, and is openly, flagrantly corrupt, even within the already absurd system that governs Piltover. Her family issues would be infinitely more compelling if she was not just ... openly okay with having her boot on the neck of an oppressed underclass while schmoozing and making deals with the swells. Far too smart to be unaware of the abuse of Zaun, it would already be a familiar pattern to her.
-Jayce: Openly biased against people born in Zaun, as evidenced by the bridge scene with Viktor. He says he wants to make the world a better place with Hextech, which would be fair enough ... if he didn't immediately use it to exclusively benefit the wealthy ruling class, weaponize it against the victims of that government, and, with barely a nudge, follow Mel directly into absurd corruption. Hes dumb enough that I could maybe believe he's missed the situation in Zaun but that still means, at the very least, that he never once bothered to think about why the other side of the river is the way it is, even when he was part of the government.
-Caitlyn: All enforcers are Bastards, and she is no exception. I could enumerate her deeds but this alone should make her irredeemable.
Ultimately, all these people are wealthy beneficiaries of the status quo. Even Jayce, the initially 'poorest' among them, is from a family important enough to be called a 'house'. He's just not at the tippy top.
They are attractive, and charming, and interesting personalities, and have complex dynamics with one another. But none of this changes the facts: They are all dedicated to maintaining this status quo to their benefit, even knowing the suffering it causes the people below them. They are willing to use violent repression to maintain it. Most of them have had the chance to change things for the better ... and chose not to. They actively support the oppression of Zaun, there's just no way around it.
That's evil on a scale, and over a time period Silco couldnt match if he tried, and unlike Silco, they dont even have the excuse of trying to free their people from an oppressive oligarchy. It's all just personal benefit.
They wont help Zaun, because they dont want to. They either dont care, or they want Zaunites to suffer. Its as simple as that.
The presence of a Zaunite they personally like will not get them to change their minds on anything. Viktor is a prodigal genius and the personal aide to the head of the council, and has been in that position for awhile now. Never once did Heimer even consider putting a stop to the active dumping of poison that crippled him as a child.
The fact that the Kirraman's fund the enforcers is a warning bell of their moral character. They are willing to spend vast sums of money to keep people like Powder and her family down.
We can certainly try and make connections, convince them to see things our way. They will hang out with powder, call her friend, give her nice things, set her up with education and tools, etc.
They will never, ever consider not crushing her people underfoot like bugs.
Not until faced with consequences. The one consistent thing that has gotten Piltover to compromise.
(The onus also shouldn't be on us to convince them not to be assholes, their oppressive behavior is on them, but that's irrelevant, the practicalities are what matter here anyway.)
Yes. it is. We know for a fact that the Enforcers and less prone to walk around randomly cracking skulls for fun, and that the air is far more breatheable. Those are both noted improvements.
They keep Zaun because they make money off of exploiting it's people. Simple as.
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I mean, in that case there's nothing for me to say besides that I do not agree that the Piltover Cast categorically cannot be reached
Like you're arguing that people like Heimerdinger and Jayce don't have a conscience and can't be made to see the ongoing harm going on or take action against that harm when that's explicitly not true
We see it for ourselves that it isn't true
Call it wishful, milquetoast writing on Arcane's part if you want, that's a whole different discussion that I'm not interested in having because I don't have the energy for it and I don't think it'd be healthy for the thread
But the idea that there isn't anyone on Piltover's side who could ever take sympathetic action on Zaun's behalf no matter what and the only solution that could ever exist is force of arms just isn't true
If it were then the story wouldn't have been a tragedy
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Season 2 Caitlyn seeing her family archives shows that it wasn't the rebellion that made things more breathable but her ancestor thinking everyone has the right to breathe.
Secondly where in arcane does it show how it was like pre bridge? We only have the flashbacks and those don't show much of what Zaun was like back in the day.
Here's the thing, he's immortal. He's also burnt out like Vander but far in the past. He also doesn't have total control, seeing as how he was booted out of the council when he tried to stop Hextech.
Edit: Correction not even try to stop Hextech. Just tried to slow it down for safeguards. Before that he was trying to reform the council to help Zaun and failed.
Again what money? I don't see the proof of them making that much off of Zaun. Season 2 we see the mines closed. Throughout the series we don't see profit from Zaun. We don't even see anyone save for Silco, his right hand and Vander care about independence.
If they were being exploited as much as you say then more should care. They also should have noticed Silcos government, the chem Barons etc.
The only time Zaunites actually starts caring about that stuff is when Ambessa manipulated Cat into attacking Zaun and using her troops to stir up trouble.
Where's the proof of profit? What scene?
Edit: As for your Jayce example, it lacks context. Wasn't that after he ordered a blockade when Jinx had a Hextech gem and the undercity was acting violent?
Edit2: The only reason the undercity isn't full of cops is Pilover for whatever reason is sacred of them dying on them.
Even checked the wiki and it isn't telling me about the explotation. Only the pollution and racism that Zaunites are made about.
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There's a big moral difference between a burnt out revolutionary who has come to the conclusion that fighting for a better life would not be worth more of his friends dying, and a... idk "burnt out" head-of-the-council-and-academy-for-life who has presided over exactly how bad things have gotten for like two centuries.
He doesn't have total control, but things were way past the point where he had a moral obligation to either remove himself from the situation entirely or be doing everything in his power to fix his mistakes and he just wasn't. He gets himself kicked off the council for his issues with Hextech - but that means that he was not protesting the treatment of the Undercity anywhere near as strongly, if he was at all.
He's also the only councilor that was definitely a council member during the bridge. Mel is young enough that she probably wasn't, and the rest are author determination, but unless he was on like a sabbatical at exactly the right time, he was there. And he's the only councilor who couldn't maybe claim that they were only coming into a corrupt system, or were only a product of the society they were raised in.
Heimderdinger and Vander should sit down for drinks and complain about 'kids these days having no respect for their elders and their advice'.
Meanwhile
Powder: "Hey what if we like induce a magical explosion and then create a system to harvest the released energy as a sustainable power source. Given how big a boom these things can make that could probably power like a ton of stuff if we did it right."
Jayce: "That sounds incredibly dangerous and irresponsible and we should try that right now."
Meanwhile
Powder: "Hey what if we like induce a magical explosion and then create a system to harvest the released energy as a sustainable power source. Given how big a boom these things can make that could probably power like a ton of stuff if we did it right."
Jayce: "That sounds incredibly dangerous and irresponsible and we should try that right now."
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This isn't true. While it's not explicitly a desire for independence, Ep 1-3 Vi talks quite a bit about being willing to fight against topside for a better future for Powder (and herself). Mylo, Claggor, and Powder are all excited about the prospect of fighting enforcers. When the Enforcers are harassing people in Zaun following the heist, most of the people of Zaun don't seem mad about potentially sheltering criminals from the enforcers (although I think some do mention giving them up), but rather they're mad that Vander isn't leading them against the enforcers again.
And we saw the bridge. We know there was popular support for revolution against topside when things were slightly worse, and basically every Zaunite we get any detail on their political thoughts are is in favor of independence or some kind of revolution against topside, with the only exception being the Chembarons.
Edit: Also, two things about the ventilation system in Zaun I want to point out:
1) This system is not public knowledge. You'd think that if a rich person literally paid out of pocket to let half a city breath they would be shouting this from rooftops and bragging about it in public constantly. But they're not. And it's not that they're humble about it, it's literally a family secret revealed to only the heads of the family. This paints the fact that it can either be switched off or is incredibly easy to weaponize in pretty bad light. I want to point out that the moral thing to do here would have been to hand the keys to the ventilation system over to Zaun.
2) It was not a government project. The council as a whole including Heimerdinger was unwilling to act on the air in Zaun becoming toxic to the point where Caitlyn's ancestor solved the matter personally, and they were also so willfully ignorant of the problem that they did not even know when it was solved.
I'd be willing to believe that Caitlyn's ancestor was actually unusually good compared to the rest of Piltover, that the system was impossible to design in such a way that it could not be deactivated, and that keeping it secret rather than handing it over to Zaun was sort of the best you could reasonably expect from a Head of House Kiraminn, but both of these give some moral texture to this that I think it's imporant to point out.
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[X][Piltover]: If he Thinks it's My Chance for a Better Life, I Should Try
[X][Willpower]: Spend one.
This is a very interesting canon divergence. Man, we might wind up with a total roleswap, with Vi joining Silco.
Man, we really need to fix our mental issues too. Piltover and time away from Vi is probably going to be a huge boon, less mental problems to deal with at one time, meaning we can start fixing some, instead of worsening them. Notably trauma, jinx, self-worth and daughter of Zaun.
Even moreso when we start getting paid. Nothing like bringing back the bacon and the gratefulness of your group to build self-worth.
[X][Willpower]: Spend one.
This is a very interesting canon divergence. Man, we might wind up with a total roleswap, with Vi joining Silco.
Man, we really need to fix our mental issues too. Piltover and time away from Vi is probably going to be a huge boon, less mental problems to deal with at one time, meaning we can start fixing some, instead of worsening them. Notably trauma, jinx, self-worth and daughter of Zaun.
Even moreso when we start getting paid. Nothing like bringing back the bacon and the gratefulness of your group to build self-worth.
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jwolfe_beta
Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord
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The funny thing about 'Piltover residents who could help Zaun but don't' even Viktor is guilty of it (and he's an Undercity native).
Think about what he and Jayce made when they cracked the stable Hextech gems.
And the latter (if not used as a weapon) would be used in high-end industries which would be in Piltover.
Unless he/they would be using the money and influence gained from said inventions to support various institutions in the Undercity, they wouldn't help much.
Think about what he and Jayce made when they cracked the stable Hextech gems.
The former would just mean the mine overseers would have the excuse to demand higher quotas of the workers (who would be Zaunites).
And the latter (if not used as a weapon) would be used in high-end industries which would be in Piltover.
Unless he/they would be using the money and influence gained from said inventions to support various institutions in the Undercity, they wouldn't help much.
Or we might develop new ones from having to constantly interact with Pilities that dismiss us/consider us a worthless stain on the ground/harass us.
I'm rewatching the scene where he gets booted from the council. He made the attempt to fix things before Jayce betrayed him over Hextech. He's apathetic until something throws it in his face.
Do they really care or did they start caring after the enforcers came down? If they cared all the time Silco wouldn't have felt the need to spread Shimmer to force everyone onto the same page.
As for the kids I don't take them seriously. They're regurgitating what they've heard from Vanders people and due to their parents dying. We see in part 2 and season 2 Vi is the one to push for the council to deal with Silco, pushes Jayce to go down there, becomes an enforcer. She doesn't seem to feel so strongly as an adult even after being in Stillwater.
Jayce thought that by giving the common man Hextech he's make things easier. His fellow councilors would probably just use it as an excuse for higher quotas. He isn't much of a political animal like Mel.
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Why not both? Either way, our maluses are kind of insane right now, and if we slip too much, we can easily result in a failure spiral (game over) since we'd fail at nearly everything, thus worsening those afflictions. Though they might tier up proverbially at some point, causing her to become unstable under certain circumsrances and taking away our control (e.g. canon yandereness over Vi), but also not act as a numerical malus (also like canon Jinx). Also would be more engrained and far harder to lose.
jwolfe_beta
Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord
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Like his family's specialty/symbol; he's very much a blunt object when it comes to a lot of things.
When all you have is a hammer etc etc.....
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jayce and hediemer are not polaticans which is kinda obivious from their first meeting one is to guilable and the other sees things only in the long term and ignores the current like he legit says oh I went down there 300 years ago and everything was fine like it was last tuesday