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Gate - Thus First Recon Fought There!

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GhostStalker said:
How so? They're not specifically antagonistic (save for maybe Hardy, and that's just through waking up the Flame Dragon early and the actions she commanded Giselle to do as her apostle), they just want worship and for their followers to do as commanded of them.

As I said, Emroy seems pretty cool so far for a god of Death and War...
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They wish to prevent advancing the technological advancement of the natives in order to prevent magic and our tech from combining.

With how corrupt Bush is, you really think he isn't going to throw the first punch when these gods try to prevent us from spreading our knowledge in order to pasify the area?

Also, Bush is a right wing Republican. He isn't going to believe any claims of godhood, just very powerful being at most.

Once it becomes clear that these gods are in our way and start to threaten us...well, they will have to prove their claim of godhood.
 
You know, I'm kinda tired of all the political discussion being thrown around. This is not a political drama, or at least it isn't yet. Who gives a shit?

And, moreover, why do you think the president is going to be responsible for much of the foolishness? I'm much more concerned about the army generals who handled the invasion of Iraq, and the CIA (which went through some serious reforms after repeatedly giving bad intel) then anything coming from Bush.

I may have been pretty young during his presidency, but I don't recall him single handedly ruining America's apperence in the eyes of Germany, Isreal, and Britian's major corporations (amongst others). Or leaving a war torn nation without finishing the training of local forces, thus screwing over all the first world companies who had begun investing during the Bush administration and allowing an even worse organization to fill the gap. Or pushing through national health care without fixing any of the underlying issues that made it needed in the first place. Or not fixing the economic crisis, which we can trace back to Bill Clinton repealing laws made in the aftermath of the Geat Depression.

Most of what I've seen leveled against Bush here is related to the War on Terror, which is a completely different issue then being invaded by a foreign power.

And all of the above doesn't even matter in the grand scheme of things, because we have not reached that point in the fic yet.
 
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Well gods are killable in some Earth fiction and mythologies... :whistle:
Who is too say they can't be killed.
In Eastern Context (China, Korea, Japan, and etc.), gods are merely defined as powerful beings, not omnipotent.
 
Tsjoat said:
They wish to prevent advancing the technological advancement of the natives in order to prevent magic and our tech from combining.

Once it becomes clear that these gods are in our way and start to threaten us...well, they will have to prove their claim of godhood.
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They're not against technological advancement, they just don't want a breakneck crash industrialization program, if what I remember /a/nons discussing correctly. They want measured advancement on their own timetable, which isn't that unreasonable, in my opinion.

Some tech filtering over is going to be inevitable once the interactions with the natives grow more common, and the gods seem to have no problem with that. It's just Lelei combining scientific knowledge with magic that had Hardy step in.

And you think that the US is going to immediately break out the nukes to challenge them? I don't think the gods personify at all and just possess people, so at most you're going to be dealing with apostles. Is it really worth going to WMD to see if they really are what they claim to be, especially when they're mostly non-hostile?

Apparently, in one of the Gaiden stories, Rory was ordered by Emroy to destroy an oil refinery the JSDF set up in Gate-land in order to supply their own vehicles once the Gate was (temporarily) closed and did so, IIRC, so that might piss some business interests off, but not seriously enough for them to pressure the government/military enough to escalate to nuking someone claiming divinity... That's just not going to happen unless everyone had a sudden and massive leave of common sense...
 
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GhostStalker said:
They're not against technological advancement, they just don't want a breakneck crash industrialization program, if what I remember /a/nons discussing correctly. They want measured advancement on their own timetable, which isn't that unreasonable, in my opinion.

Some tech filtering over is going to be inevitable once the interactions with the natives grow more common, and the gods seem to have no problem with that. It's just Lelei combining scientific knowledge with magic that had Hardy step in.

And you think that the US is going to immediately break out the nukes to challenge them? I don't think the gods personify at all and just possess people, so at most you're going to be dealing with apostles. Is it really worth going to WMD to see if they really are what they claim to be, especially when they're mostly non-hostile?

Apparently, in one of the Gaiden stories, Rory was ordered by Emroy to destroy an oil refinery the JSDF set up in Gate-land in order to supply their own vehicles once the Gate was (temporarily) closed and did so, IIRC, so that might piss some business interests off, but not seriously enough for them to pressure the government/military enough to escalate to nuking someone claiming divinity... That's just not going to happen unless everyone had a sudden and massive leave of common sense...
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Oil?

Then yes, they will crack out the nukes once they kill off a bunch of troops and nothing is effective.

Remember who Bush is, new untapped oil for his family to get at a stones throw away that only the US can get at?

You just gave me a better reason to believe Bush would nuke the fuck out of these things.
 
Hard to pull oil up when the ground is irradiated. You don't use nukes over tactically important areas you have to occupy.
 
Tsjoat said:
Oil?

Then yes, they will crack out the nukes once they kill off a bunch of troops and nothing is effective.

Remember who Bush is, new untapped oil for his family to get at a stones throw away that only the US can get at?

You just gave me a better reason to believe Bush would nuke the fuck out of these things.
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Ummmm... except we wont. Did we pull out nukes against Iraq? No, we didnt. We sent in troops to march in and take the oil fields back.
 
Tsjoat said:
They didn't have unkillible monsters.
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You forget that the Gate is going to have to close sooner rather than later anyway. Otherwise you get increasing mega-earthquakes on both sides as two time-spaces that aren't supposed to be linked forever grind and get pulled towards and away from each other. California already has to worry about large quakes along the San Andreas Fault in southern California, they'd shut the Gate from time to time once this is found out to prevent another source of large quakes affecting SoCal double quick.

Also, wouldn't it be a lot more cost effective for oil companies to pull the oil out of the ground and then process/refine it in facilities that have already been established to do so, like they have near San Diego in California, where there's conveniently a Gate nearby that makes said transportation by truck or railway (since any pipeline is going to be cut by the Gate closing) incredibly easy? Like we do now with oil? Considerably cheaper than building all the infrastructure and importing the trained oil workers you're gonna need over in Gate-land.

And remember, Rory was only ordered to destroy the refinery, not the wells and operations that were pumping it from the ground. Pretty sure those are fine.

You seem to be quick to jump on the "nuke 'em!" response before any gods and their pronouncements are even encountered... Why would things escalate so damn much in the first place unless warnings and religious explanations are given and ignored? If First Recon meets Rory like in canon and they and their higher ups learn of the power and survivability of apostles from being around her, they'd know that they were being serious and it would be better not to piss people like that off, again unless everyone has a sudden massive leave of common sense...

Again, the gods seem to be ok with tech, just not a crash industrialization type thing that you seem to think that the US would be embarking on immediately, instead of just having isolated resource extraction areas away from other denizens of Gate-world.
 
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Dirtnap said:
Pretty sure the red dragon isn't unkillable. Tough yeah, but its a big fucking target. M1s have APFSDS rounds that can punch through like 4 feet of RHS. More if you thrown in the DU penetrators, which I'm pretty sure were loaded up.
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I think he might mean the apostles. Given what's on youtube (I don't otherwise know anything about Gate); conventional weapons at least seem useless (referencing the special forces that got slaughtered by Rory).

Edit: In fact, doesn't Rory outright say she can't die?
 
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GhostStalker said:
You forget that the Gate is going to have to close sooner rather than later anyway. Otherwise you get increasing mega-earthquakes on both sides as two time-spaces that aren't supposed to be linked forever grind and get pulled towards and away from each other. California already has to worry about large quakes along the San Andreas Fault in southern California, they'd shut the Gate from time to time once this is found out to prevent another source of large quakes affecting SoCal double quick.

Also, wouldn't it be a lot more cost effective for oil companies to pull the oil out of the ground and then process/refine it in facilities that have already been established to do so, like they have near San Diego in California, where there's conveniently a Gate nearby that makes said transportation by truck or railway (since any pipeline is going to be cut by the Gate closing) incredibly easy? Like we do now with oil? Considerably cheaper than building all the infrastructure and importing the trained oil workers you're gonna need over in Gate-land.

And remember, Rory was only ordered to destroy the refinery, not the wells and operations that were pumping it from the ground. Pretty sure those are fine.

You seem to be quick to jump on the "nuke 'em!" response before any gods and their pronouncements are even encountered... Why would things escalate so damn much in the first place unless warnings and religious explanations are given and ignored? If First Recon meets Rory like in canon and they and their higher ups learn of the power and survivability of apostles from being around her, they'd know that they were being serious and it would be better not to piss people like that off, again unless everyone has a sudden massive leave of common sense...

Again, the gods seem to be ok with tech, just not a crash industrialization type thing that you seem to think that the US would be embarking on immediately, instead of just having isolated resource extraction areas away from other denizens of Gate-world.
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I am, admitibly nuke happy.

But that's more or less how I see Bush reacting once the aposels stopping them. His family is an oil family, that is how they get their wealth.

Once it becomes clear that throwing more bodies at the issue will not work, what do you think a self interest fuck like Bush is going to do? Give up on the potential billions his family could get?

They you have the fact that they serve a god of death. Religious extremists, he would label them. Look at how well the public accepted that in OTL with the Taliban and such?

The public would support Bushes cause.
 
Drasis said:
I think he might mean the apostles. Given what's on youtube (I don't otherwise know anything about Gate); conventional weapons at least seem useless (referencing the special forces that got slaughtered by Rory).

Edit: In fact, doesn't Rory outright say she can't die?
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Her body regenerates. But that does mean you can at least put them down for extended periods of time. I'm sure a 25mm HEDP round would have some rather nasty effects on a body.
 
Tsjoat said:
I am, admitibly nuke happy.

But that's more or less how I see Bush reacting once the aposels stopping them. His family is an oil family, that is how they get their wealth.

Once it becomes clear that throwing more bodies at the issue will not work, what do you think a self interest fuck like Bush is going to do? Give up on the potential billions his family could get?

They you have the fact that they serve a god of death. Religious extremists, he would label them. Look at how well the public accepted that in OTL with the Taliban and such?

The public would support Bushes cause.
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Please do not drag this shit in here. He's not gonna nuke them because you can't fucking pump oil out while the ground is irradiated, otherwise you contaminate the oil.
 
Man, this is reminding me of mid-00s pop-politics too much.

Bush and his administration were neo-cons, meaning that their view on international relations was heavily influenced by democratic peace theory. The whole "OMG we invaded Iraq for oil" is the uneducated dissenting view; the "we invaded Iraq for all the juicy defense and rebuilding contracts" is slightly more nuanced, but the real answer is that we invaded Iraq because our leaders subscribed to an extreme interpretation of a flawed paradigm of conflict. Namely and somewhat abbreviated, that out of any combination of two states, a pair of democratic states are least likely to go to war with each other, therefore nondemocratic states should be converted, peacefully or by force, into democracies, in the interest of broad and long-term international peace. I'll only very briefly touch on why this is flawed: insufficient data, and the fact that paired autocratic states are still less likely to war with each other than a democratic state paired with an autocratic state (suggesting that it has more to do with the likeness of political systems rather than democracy specifically). Also the obvious issue of launching wars in the name of preventing war.

All of that shit means, essentially, that for a neocon administration, the rational response to the Gate attack is to launch a counterattack, destroy the structure of the Empire's government and nobility, and try to foster democratic sentiment while propping up a democratic government, in the interest of peaceful relations in the future. The exact same reasons that got us bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq II: Quagmire Boogaloo are the same reasons that will get fictional-US bogged down in the Gateverse.
 
Dirtnap said:
Please do not drag this shit in here. He's not gonna nuke them because you can't fucking pump oil out while the ground is irradiated, otherwise you contaminate the oil.
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Sure you can pump the oil out and ship it. So long as the pipeline is properly sealed (that is, there's no surface dust getting into the pipe' that oil isn't exactly going to get any more radioactive. Radioactivity doesn't contaminate that easily through a sealed container.

Now, the work crews? They're probably not going to enjoy having to work in the heavy suits necessary to shield people from radioactivity.
 
Dirtnap said:
Please do not drag this shit in here. He's not gonna nuke them because you can't fucking pump oil out while the ground is irradiated, otherwise you contaminate the oil.
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How would you fight them then?

I guess if you pump them with enough drugs or shock them with a elephant taser then you could take them down (after all, alcohol works on them to get them drunk.).

But is it practical? Sure, if you accept the deaths of all the troops attempting it, which with how many there are would be way too many.

But, you know, they can always lead them away from the oil site and then nuke them with a small nuke like a Davy crocket or enough explosives (which would be harder to set up.)
 
Hazard said:
Sure you can pump the oil out and ship it. So long as the pipeline is properly sealed (that is, there's no surface dust getting into the pipe' that oil isn't exactly going to get any more radioactive. Radioactivity doesn't contaminate that easily through a sealed container.
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no you can't. you have to drill through a contaminated soil layer, that contaminates the drill. I used to work a nuke waste facility setting up containment for the places they worked in. Gamma radiation don't give a fuck unless there's lead or water in the way.
 
Tsjoat said:
How would you fight them then?
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Simple, you don't piss off an apostle in the first place, or you befriend one (like Rory, when she inevitably sees the killing power that First Recon brings to the table like in canon) and use them to hold off others (like they did with Giselle), with some overwhelming fire support.

Why are you jumping so quickly and hanging on to the idea that conflict between the US and Gate-world gods and their apostles is inevitable? Because oil? I'm no fan of Bush and his foreign policy either, but I'm not going to think that he's willing to drop a nuke over mineral resources (and possibly contaminate those very mineral resources he wantsto exploit)... Why the hell would the US even think to bring nukes over into Gate-world in the first place so they have them ready and on hand to use? Proportional response to the Empire's attack and all that doesn't call for use of WMD, especially not nukes.

If word got out that the US escalated to using nukes on an apostle basically because of oil (pretty hard to stop eventual word from filtering back over, especially if there are embedded reporters in the unit heading over, or just to cover what was happening in Gate-world), there'd be riots in the streets over unjustified use to WMDs, possible resignations in the military over the use of WMD for such an asinine reason, international condemnation over their use, and politicians of all parties would likely call for an immediate investigation. Bush isn't that stupid, no matter what one thinks of him politically, and his advisors aren't that stupid to let him order the use of a nuke...

But really, this is getting super off topic, and I wish I hadn't brought up Hardy's prohibition in the first place, if it leads to people jumping on the "nuke 'em!" train like it did here...
 
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GhostStalker said:
Simple, you don't piss off an apostle in the first place, or you befriend one (like Rory, when she inevitably sees the killing power that First Recon brings to the table like in canon) and use them to hold off others (like they did with Giselle), with some overwhelming fire support.

Why are you jumping so quickly and hanging on to the idea that conflict between the US and Gate-world gods and their apostles is inevitable? Because oil? I'm no fan of Bush and his foreign policy either, but I'm not going to think that he's willing to drop a nuke over mineral resources (and possibly contaminate those very mineral resources he wantsto exploit)... Why the hell would the US even think to bring nukes over into Gate-world in the first place so they have them ready and on hand to use? Proportional response to the Empire's attack and all that doesn't call for use of WMD, especially not nukes.

If word got out that the US escalated to using nukes on an apostle basically because of oil (pretty hard to stop eventual word from filtering back over, especially if there are embedded reporters in the unit heading over, or just to cover what was happening in Gate-world), there'd be riots in the streets over unjustified use to WMDs, possible resignations in the military over the use of WMD for such an asinine reason, international condemnation over their use, and politicians of all parties would likely call for an immediate investigation. Bush isn't that stupid, no matter what one thinks of him politically, and his advisors aren't that stupid to let him order the use of a nuke...

But really, this is getting super off topic, and I wish I hadn't brought up Hardy's prohibition in the first place, if it leads to people jumping on the "nuke 'em!" train like it did here...
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Flying Dice said:
Man, this is reminding me of mid-00s pop-politics too much.

Bush and his administration were neo-cons, meaning that their view on international relations was heavily influenced by democratic peace theory. The whole "OMG we invaded Iraq for oil" is the uneducated dissenting view; the "we invaded Iraq for all the juicy defense and rebuilding contracts" is slightly more nuanced, but the real answer is that we invaded Iraq because our leaders subscribed to an extreme interpretation of a flawed paradigm of conflict. Namely and somewhat abbreviated, that out of any combination of two states, a pair of democratic states are least likely to go to war with each other, therefore nondemocratic states should be converted, peacefully or by force, into democracies, in the interest of broad and long-term international peace. I'll only very briefly touch on why this is flawed: insufficient data, and the fact that paired autocratic states are still less likely to war with each other than a democratic state paired with an autocratic state (suggesting that it has more to do with the likeness of political systems rather than democracy specifically). Also the obvious issue of launching wars in the name of preventing war.

All of that shit means, essentially, that for a neocon administration, the rational response to the Gate attack is to launch a counterattack, destroy the structure of the Empire's government and nobility, and try to foster democratic sentiment while propping up a democratic government, in the interest of peaceful relations in the future. The exact same reasons that got us bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq II: Quagmire Boogaloo are the same reasons that will get fictional-US bogged down in the Gateverse.
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These two posts right here.

These people here are smart.
 
GhostStalker said:
Simple, you don't piss off an apostle in the first place, or you befriend one (like Rory, when she inevitably sees the killing power that First Recon brings to the table like in canon) and use them to hold off others (like they did with Giselle), with some overwhelming fire support.

Why are you jumping so quickly and hanging on to the idea that conflict between the US and Gate-world gods and their apostles is inevitable? Because oil? I'm no fan of Bush and his foreign policy either, but I'm not going to think that he's willing to drop a nuke over mineral resources (and possibly contaminate those very mineral resources he wantsto exploit)... Why the hell would the US even think to bring nukes over into Gate-world in the first place so they have them ready and on hand to use? Proportional response to the Empire's attack and all that doesn't call for use of WMD, especially not nukes.

If word got out that the US escalated to using nukes on an apostle basically because of oil (pretty hard to stop eventual word from filtering back over, especially if there are embedded reporters in the unit heading over, or just to cover what was happening in Gate-world), there'd be riots in the streets over unjustified use to WMDs, possible resignations in the military over the use of WMD for such an asinine reason, international condemnation over their use, and politicians of all parties would likely call for an immediate investigation. Bush isn't that stupid, no matter what one thinks of him politically, and his advisors aren't that stupid to let him order the use of a nuke...

But really, this is getting super off topic, and I wish I hadn't brought up Hardy's prohibition in the first place, if it leads to people jumping on the "nuke 'em!" train like it did here...
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Because I am being somewhat realistic.

Apostles like Rory will turn on them in a heartbeat if their god told them to, like she did at the oil refinery.

The moment a foreign power begins to threaten the US military, it must be taken seriously. Oil may have been the cause, but WHEN things escalate because no one in the top brass believes a few girls can take on the whole military and ignore these god's warnings. We are not like the Japanese in GATE, who simply do not have the manpower or firepower to engage in a proper war.

The military starts getting killed wholesale when we ignore the gods, and the survivors, if any, demand revenge/justice. The families would demand justice. Things would escalate, whole missions will be about killing these threats, missiles and bombs will be dropped, and eventually it will become clear that they can not be killed by conventional means. The nuking would no longer be officially about oil, it would be about stopping the utter carnage and slaughter of our troops.

Seriously, if not a nuke, then what possible weapon can you use against them?

Because you can't convince me that someone with both his own sense of morality and his sense of greed working together.

I'll drop the argument, nukes are a bad idea, you guys are right about that, I admit.

Anyone got any better ideas? Because I can't see someone like Bush respecting these Gods.
 
Tsjoat said:
Because I can't see someone like Bush respecting these Gods.
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Being completely up front here, but it's no secret to anyone I know that I hated the Bush administration. I won't get into why, because I don't think it's relevant here, and dragging him into the conversation at every point (not saying you're doing this specifically, just in general) doesn't seem like the most constructive way to discuss this fic...

Also not relevant are Bush's personal opinions on the Gate people's pantheon. What matters is who crosses it, and what they decide to do with deities who can demonstrably manifest their will, as well as their followers, be they mortals or apostals.
 
Dirtnap said:
no you can't. you have to drill through a contaminated soil layer,
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Well, yes, that's why you drill through that layer and a bit beyond it, flush the pipes clear of any contaminated matter, yank up the drill head and replace it and start with a fresh, clean drill head that won't be spending more than a minute at most in the contaminated layer protected perfectly from alpha and beta radiation as well as pretty well protected from gamma radiation because you used a thick steel pipe as well as keeping a lot of cooling fluid in the pipe to the hole from filling back up. And generally water is the coolant of choice.

Problem solved. For the drill anyway, I'm not talking about the people operating the equipment. And, well, as I said, so long as the no dust or mud from the contaminated layer can enter the pipe system the oil isn't going to be any more radioactive than oil is normally.

Dirtnap said:
Gamma radiation don't give a fuck unless there's lead or water in the way.
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Actually, it mostly cares about how much mass is in the way. Also, total distance, as gamma radiation radiates in all directions from the source, so the radiation hazard becomes lower as distance increases due to the greater surface area for the same amount of radiation.
Interestingly, IIRC the Soviet Union did tests regarding radiation protection provided by various substances and complex carbon molecules showed an unusually large absorption ability of gamma radiation, considerably larger than its mass would indicate. Unfortunately, as it became further irradiated this became less effective due to the breakdown of the molecules in question.
 
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