Gate - Thus First Recon Fought There!

Was 14 years old, and had just gotten out of a psychiatric session (long story), when received word of a terrorist attack in the US using a plane. Didn't really get the details until I got home and saw the news on TV, back when it was still the most reliable way to get news.

That was the first time I've ever gone online to check up news on current affairs.
 
Looked back at my post, saw it was way long, have spoilered to make sure I don't hog the thread. If anyone wants it moved or deleted, let me know and I'll action it.

I was 30 and in Sydney, Australia, like I have been for almost all my life. At about 11 PM local time I logged onto a net chatroom I checked out on a semi-regular basis and first got word about the first plane hitting the WTC, and a lot of people assumed it was an accident. I turned on the local TV station just in time to hear a breaking news report about it, and said it seemed to be an accident.

Then some of my chat buddies reporting unsettling things. One mentioned she'd just seen a pair of F-16s launching from Andrews AFB. Another guy who worked with IT and electronics said his boss had called him to get down to LAX straight away to help set up a crisis management centre for the FBI, as a plane headed for LA had suddenly gone off the air (which later turned out to be the second plane to hit the Towers). One guy said he'd received a call from his sister who lived at Fort Hood (her husband was an Abrams driver) to let him know the entire base had gone into lockdown. While I was seeing all this in the chatroom I was listening to a local radio show whose host said the latest they'd heard from New York was that a plane had hit the World Trade Centre and if anyone had any information to call him. So I rang up and passed on the news about what else happened in the States, and could almost hear the guy's jaw drop. After that I went to bed as it was about 2:30 AM local time.

I woke up a few hours later, turned on the TV and found a news show that was channelling CNN live. Wolf Blitzer was commentating - I remembered his name years later when I saw Cats & Dogs. They'd mentioned a second plane had hit the WTC, a plane had crashed into the Pentagon and they were sure they were deliberate. I felt like the couch I was sitting on had dropped out from under me, and I felt cold and numb. The TV anchor mentioned rumours another plane had crashed somewhere in Pennsylvania, leaving me wondering if there was some big government building or famous landmark near the crash site. And then they cut back to footage of the emergency workers swarming around the WTC with smoke pouring out of its windows and panicked people in the streets. I remember Wolf Blitzer saying that on most days there were about twenty-five thousand people in the WTC and if things went bad this attack could result in more dead people than the Battle of Gettysburg. And then the live coverage of the WTC continued.

I've never been comfortable with tall buildings. Climbing a tree when I was a kid, no problem. Travelling in an enclosed plane, no problem - hell, I'm a major geek on WW2 and later aircraft. Looking across the street from one building to another at a high floor and I'm fine. Just don't ask me to look down. When I was 14 years old my class went on a school trip to Centrepoint Tower in Sydney, where we went up to the observation deck and everyone had fun looking out around the city skyline. I was the stupid who looked down through the main windows - they're angled so you can look straight down, not just at an angle - and realised that if the pane of glass in front of me fell out then I'd follow it plummetting two hundred-plus metres to street level, and damn near had a panic attack. So you can have a good idea how I reacted when the TV showed the footage of the people on the 90th floor of the WTC broke open the windows and deliberately threw themselves out to fall to the street below. At first I just couldn't believe it, but then when it got through my head that this is really fucking happening I just lost it.

The next thing I remember was my flatmate shaking me and yelling my name (he'd been out at a friend's party the previous night, which is why he wasn't there when this happened) . I went to ask him what had him so worried but I could barely talk - my throat felt like someone had worked it over with a wood file, and my face was wet with tears. He thought someone had tried to break into our flat and murder me, or that I'd gone outside and been mugged and managed to get myself back home. I managed to talk a bit about what had happened in America and absently noticed that it had been some hours since I'd started watching the TV coverage. Then it came up repeating the breaking story - the Towers had come down. I guess that it had been covered live as it had happened, and I'd probably been watching the TV at that time, but my guess is after seeing those poor people jump from the 90th floor I just wasn't there.

And as they kept broadcasting that the World Trade Centre had collapsed and possibly thousands of deaths I remember thinking The Americans are going to hunt down whoever did this and screw the cost and effort. This is the kind of things that starts wars. This is the kind of things that makes nations die.

Looking back on what happened to Afghanistan and Iraq, I guess I was right.
 
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Geez, I'm probably one of the younger members. I was in the 1st grade at the time. I remember coming into school and a classmate asking a teacher if the people in the plane crash would be ok. Nothing else really happened that day, but when I got home my mother was watching the news which is when I first learned about it.
 
I was out of college, out of work, and was asleep. I think my father called me and told me to put the news on. I recall hoping I was having a nightmare.
 
Let's see... I was 22 at the time working at Deseret Ind. (Goodwill-ish). It wasn't until after an hour I got in that I finally figured out that I was the only one working the receiving dock. I went to find the other two that should have been out there with me over in electronics. Watching that was sickening.
 
Not meaning to intrude, and not sure if off topic, but I asked about the Empire's appearance pages ago. Like isn't Roman military technology and tactics/strategies are inferior to a medieval one's?
Medieval Europe had better metal-smelting, and plenty of other improvements like to Clocks with hourglasses. Medieval technologies like Horse shoes, wheelbarrows, compasses, printing presses, glasses, spinning wheels, liquor, magnets, mirrors and combined arms.
A stereotypical Roman Legionary's armor does not offer as much protection as a medieval foot soldier's. A Knight's Long-sword is very likely to break a Roman Legionary's Gladius and Shield. It doesn't make sense for Roman Knock-offs to have vassals with better tech than them, it hurts the eyes and common sense (which would be a case of refuge in audacity). I find it more realistic for not-Rome to be a cross of late Rome, H.R.E. and Byzantium. Possibly speaking a knock off descendant of Latin or a bastardized cousin of Italian, Greek, and German.
Though will there be an actual name given to the Gate Empire?
Apologies if this is rambling, and if I'm being rude.
 
@Rear Mirrors

You're not being rude at all, so no need to apologize for anything.


I'm basically going off this image when I say they're 'Romans'. They're obviously not Romans, but none of the combatants present know that. As for the very logical issue of how a technological inferior keeps other nations bent over their knee...that's really more of a question for the original creator.

I'm not really a guy to ask about the pros and cons of various ancient battle implements, and I don't think full plate would help the Empire tank bullets even if they had it.
 
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@Rear Mirrors

You're not being rude at all, so no need to apologize for anything.


I'm basically going off this image when I say they're 'Romans'. They're obviously not Romans, but none of the combatants present know that. As for the very logical issue of how a technological inferior keeps other nations bent over their knee...that's really more of a question for the original creator.

I'm not really a guy to ask about the pros and cons of various ancient battle implements, and I don't think full plate would help the Empire tank bullets even if they had it.

Actually, I think they would have developed medieval versions of the Roman Helmets, like with the Corinthian Helmet influencing the Barbute. They should at least culturally evolve, like just about everybody wearing trousers and long sleeve shirts, including their army and navy. I mean it get colds in the winters obviously.
Their vassals' troops are fully armored, why shouldn't not-Rome do the same?
On a political level, I would assume their government developed into a Roman Republican/Greek Democratic version of Feudalism.
 
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As an aside, linking to vaguely relevant wikipedia pages doesn't equate to making a point.

This was meant to be a brief aside, but it ballooned out to 600-odd words, so spoiler tags are a go.

The Romans had several advantages, including standardization. Every Roman soldier could expect to be armed and armored to the same standard as any other (barring barbarian auxiliaries, the equivalent of the monster-people), and that standard was fairly high as far as line infantry went, even by high medieval standards. They were also generally better trained than your average medieval footman or crossbowman. You don't really see this same level of standardization, high minimum quality, and training emerge until around the Thirty Years War, when states were sufficiently centralized to support standing armies (as opposed to peasant levies and individual lords' little bands of men loyal to them, and to the crown through the rather highly decentralized feudal model of loyalty).

Certainly, a medieval knight would have better armor, arms, and possibly training than the average Roman legionary. But legionaries as a whole were vastly better equipped, trained, and disciplined than the average peasant soldier, and that's what counts in a large field battle. It would be rare for an ordinary medieval footsoldier to have much in the way of metal armor, usually nothing beyond leather armor with discs or plates of metal sewn in, if that--many made do with leather and thick cloth. Likewise, ordinary footsoldiers by and large didn't have much training and were armed with whatever they could lay their hands on, not high-quality blades from a good smithy.

If you could field a force of High Medieval men-at-arms equal to Roman numbers, they'd have a material advantage. But such a force would be highly difficult to assemble--you're talking about basically three classes of men: knights/nobles, the personal armsmen of the same, and professional mercenaries. A single Roman legion from most of their history was ~5,000 men, all professional soldiers, though at the twilight of the empire numbers dipped as low as ~1,000 men per legion. The number of active legions varied over history from 50+ to 28. So we're talking ~250,000 professional fighting men during the brightest years of Rome.

Obviously, you wouldn't see the total of Rome's forces drawn together for a single campaign or battle. However! We know that (probably) five legions were involved in the capture of Britain, or ~25,000 professional soldiers. By way of contrast, most modern historians estimate the size of the Norman invasion force under William to have been ~7,000-10,000 men, of whom only ~1,000-3,000 were cavalry, or roughly equivalent to men-at-arms in terms of quality of equipment and armor. I'd offer more comparisons of individual battles, but not much quantitative data is readily available about Roman troop numbers.

However, take those two forces again. Assume you've got an equal number of legionaries and high medieval men-at-arms. Again, this unrealistic force composition for the medieval side means that they've maybe got the material advantage, which they wouldn't if the composition was period-accurate. It also means that they have no archers and are mostly composed of cavalry. Here's a more useful wiki link. That force of legionaries will have standardized equipment to fill a number of roles, standardized use of the same, standardized tactics, unified leadership, diverse force composition, &c. -- even if the legionaries are randomly taken from every legion in the empire, they will know how to work together efficiently and effectively. The medieval force is divided--you've got hundreds of different loyalties to individual lords, knights, and mercenary captains. The soldiers on that side are at best accustomed to working with their own little bands; if they're randomly taken from fiefdoms and mercenary bands you have a largely leaderless rabble, barring whoever emerges as leaders on the spot.

So yes, if I was a betting man, I would put my money on a Roman force against even a High Medieval force of roughly equal numbers, never mind Low Medieval. I'd give better odds to a Medieval force with a realistic (and more poorly equipped) force composition solely because it means that they'd have archers in meaningful numbers.
 
As an aside, linking to vaguely relevant wikipedia pages doesn't equate to making a point.

This was meant to be a brief aside, but it ballooned out to 600-odd words, so spoiler tags are a go.

The Romans had several advantages, including standardization. Every Roman soldier could expect to be armed and armored to the same standard as any other (barring barbarian auxiliaries, the equivalent of the monster-people), and that standard was fairly high as far as line infantry went, even by high medieval standards. They were also generally better trained than your average medieval footman or crossbowman. You don't really see this same level of standardization, high minimum quality, and training emerge until around the Thirty Years War, when states were sufficiently centralized to support standing armies (as opposed to peasant levies and individual lords' little bands of men loyal to them, and to the crown through the rather highly decentralized feudal model of loyalty).

Certainly, a medieval knight would have better armor, arms, and possibly training than the average Roman legionary. But legionaries as a whole were vastly better equipped, trained, and disciplined than the average peasant soldier, and that's what counts in a large field battle. It would be rare for an ordinary medieval footsoldier to have much in the way of metal armor, usually nothing beyond leather armor with discs or plates of metal sewn in, if that--many made do with leather and thick cloth. Likewise, ordinary footsoldiers by and large didn't have much training and were armed with whatever they could lay their hands on, not high-quality blades from a good smithy.

If you could field a force of High Medieval men-at-arms equal to Roman numbers, they'd have a material advantage. But such a force would be highly difficult to assemble--you're talking about basically three classes of men: knights/nobles, the personal armsmen of the same, and professional mercenaries. A single Roman legion from most of their history was ~5,000 men, all professional soldiers, though at the twilight of the empire numbers dipped as low as ~1,000 men per legion. The number of active legions varied over history from 50+ to 28. So we're talking ~250,000 professional fighting men during the brightest years of Rome.

Obviously, you wouldn't see the total of Rome's forces drawn together for a single campaign or battle. However! We know that (probably) five legions were involved in the capture of Britain, or ~25,000 professional soldiers. By way of contrast, most modern historians estimate the size of the Norman invasion force under William to have been ~7,000-10,000 men, of whom only ~1,000-3,000 were cavalry, or roughly equivalent to men-at-arms in terms of quality of equipment and armor. I'd offer more comparisons of individual battles, but not much quantitative data is readily available about Roman troop numbers.

However, take those two forces again. Assume you've got an equal number of legionaries and high medieval men-at-arms. Again, this unrealistic force composition for the medieval side means that they've maybe got the material advantage, which they wouldn't if the composition was period-accurate. It also means that they have no archers and are mostly composed of cavalry. Here's a more useful wiki link. That force of legionaries will have standardized equipment to fill a number of roles, standardized use of the same, standardized tactics, unified leadership, diverse force composition, &c. -- even if the legionaries are randomly taken from every legion in the empire, they will know how to work together efficiently and effectively. The medieval force is divided--you've got hundreds of different loyalties to individual lords, knights, and mercenary captains. The soldiers on that side are at best accustomed to working with their own little bands; if they're randomly taken from fiefdoms and mercenary bands you have a largely leaderless rabble, barring whoever emerges as leaders on the spot.

So yes, if I was a betting man, I would put my money on a Roman force against even a High Medieval force of roughly equal numbers, never mind Low Medieval. I'd give better odds to a Medieval force with a realistic (and more poorly equipped) force composition solely because it means that they'd have archers in meaningful numbers.

True, but why would you essentially give your infantry reenacting armor? When it is possible to give your infantry a simpler and cheaper medieval/"contemporary" helmet and breastplate?
 
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True, but why would you essentially give your infantry reenacting armor? When it is possible to give your infantry a simpler and cheaper medieval/"contemporary" helmet and breastplate?

Um. You do realize that the Gateverse empire isn't a group of historical reinactors, right? That they're a real pre-industrial civilization? The author of those LNs committed a lot of horrible literary crimes, but "not minmaxing the non-Earth factions" isn't one of them.

Regardless, that post was addressed directly at these assertions of yours:
Not meaning to intrude, and not sure if off topic, but I asked about the Empire's appearance pages ago. Like isn't Roman military technology and tactics/strategies are inferior to a medieval one's?
A stereotypical Roman Legionary's armor does not offer as much protection as a medieval foot soldier's. A Knight's Long-sword is very likely to break a Roman Legionary's Gladius and Shield.
 
Um. You do realize that the Gateverse empire isn't a group of historical reinactors, right? That they're a real pre-industrial civilization? The author of those LNs committed a lot of horrible literary crimes, but "not minmaxing the non-Earth factions" isn't one of them.

Regardless, that post was addressed directly at these assertions of yours:

Alright, you got me there. But you forgot the manga artists for their crimes in drawing it like it is. Though on the covers of the original paper novels, the Empire doesn't really look like Rome, I'm not sure about that but: :Citation Needed:
 
For what it's worth,
the Empire was built by a group of Romans around 445CE after Rome fell, and they tried to model their society after the glory of what was lost (and probably made a lot of adjustments based off of what they found).

Any changes made in armor/fashion since then is based purely on the illustrator's (dubious) whims.
 
For what it's worth,
the Empire was built by a group of Romans around 445CE after Rome fell, and they tried to model their society after the glory of what was lost (and probably made a lot of adjustments based off of what they found).

Any changes made in armor/fashion since then is based purely on the illustrator's (dubious) whims.

So, they've had 1600-ish years to build up? How in the hell are they still roman-esque? Shouldn't they have started advancing as well?
 
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