Fyre, Fyre, Burning Skitter

I think the most charitable interpretation of Dumbledore is that he was trying to make Harry into someone who would destroy Wizarding Britain and make a better society in its place, with the human sacrifice gambit being the fallback.
 
My head cannon for that scene is that the Dumbledore he meets in the afterlife train station is being played by like, death or the Grim Reaper or something.
 
As far as Dumbledore goes, I can say I'm trying not to write him as the Evil Wizard trope, because aside from anything else it's been done to death. But if you actually look at canon, it is genuinely hard not to end up with that conclusion, or the one where he's basically senile. The plot holes in JKR's writing are... significant. Although that's a different argument this is not the time nor place to get into.

I fully agree. Both that it's done to death (and bad writing, btw) and that I can see how people end up with that conclusion.

I have a somewhat different set of ideas in play that may explain some if not all of the oddities surrounding the whole thing, and those will be shown in due course :)

I'm glad to hear that. Looking forward to whatever ends up happening!

My current bet is that the curse on the DADA position didn't only affect that, but also affected Dumbledore somehow to make strange decisions, e.g. playing things far too close to his chest, not investigating things properly, etc etc. Perhaps with a sub-component where it stopped people from looking too closely into oddities. And now that Voldemort is dead, the curse is gone, and suddenly people (Dumbledore included) are assessing the situation with a clear head. Of course, Dumbledore still feels the need to defend his past actions (that's only human) even while he's starting to wonder why he took those actions in the first place.
 
Yeah, a close analysis of canon does not put Dumbledore in a good light. Though, to be fair, he is definitely not the only person in canon who comes out poorly under such an analysis - nearly all of the adults, and a fair amount of the younger people do not come out looking good. If there's anything to actually look at, since most people are left as almost complete non-entities.
Luna is one of the few people who actually does come out looking good.

Of course, that combined with the plot holes big enough for the Varga is what makes the setting fertile ground for fanfic.

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Weird? Yes, because there are so many people expecting otherwise from an Mp.pi story.

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The part where that didn't happen.
Except if you look at canon as a whole, that's basically what actually happened. Or Dumbledore is missing all of his marbles. Even ignoring the chat with possibly Dumbledore from the Afterlife.
There is no interpretation of canon that leaves Dumbledore as reasonably competent, in his right mind, and genuinely benevolent. He's either competent and evil, or mentally unfit.
Because basic competence and good would have derailed canon in the very first couple chapters of Philosopher's Stone - Harry would not have grown up ignorant of the magical world and neglected/abused by the Dursleys, he wouldn't have been left overnight on their doorstep with only a letter. Hagrid would not have been the one to reintroduce Harry to the magical world - that would have been Mcgonagall or Dumbledore himself (which is presumably what McG thought was going to happen when she didn't). The whole Philosopher's Stone in Hogwarts? Assuming Dumbledore is telling the truth about why he has it (extremely questionable, IMO), stashing it under a Fidelius would be a far more practical method of keeping it safe, and even if that's not an option for some reason, the defenses would not be passable by a group of First Year students, much less seemingly tailored to their strengths - the door to Fluffy wouldn't be unlockable by a basic unlocking charm.
The Chamber plot would be derailed shortly after either Halloween, or the first student petrified (assuming Dumbledore did nothing in the decades after the attacks when Riddle was a student).


Even if we say that Dumbledore didn't know until the Diary, that just makes the previous school year and decade before worse. Because then it was entirely unneccessary.
But, Dumbledore knew that Voldemort was not truly dead almost immediately.
Hell, even Hagrid didn't believe that Voldemort was truly dead.
Dumbledore says - in Order of the Phoenix that he knew he was condemning Harry to long hard years at the Dursleys when he placed Harry there.
 
I think the most charitable interpretation of Dumbledore is that he was trying to make Harry into someone who would destroy Wizarding Britain and make a better society in its place, with the human sacrifice gambit being the fallback.

So Albus manipulates everything to force Harry into essentially setting off Magical Armageddon, killing both Voldemort and himself in the process and leaving Dumbledore around as the only one left capable of picking up the pieces?

It's all a "Let's You and Him fight" strategy leaving Dumbledore as the indisputable and unconquerable tyrant of Wizarding Britain?

Now I'm actually glad that the Gaunt Ring curse worked.
 
So Albus manipulates everything to force Harry into essentially setting off Magical Armageddon, killing both Voldemort and himself in the process and leaving Dumbledore around as the only one left capable of picking up the pieces?

It's all a "Let's You and Him fight" strategy leaving Dumbledore as the indisputable and unconquerable tyrant of Wizarding Britain?

Now I'm actually glad that the Gaunt Ring curse worked.
Unless you subscribe to the variant that Dumbledore was expecting Harry to fail, negating the Prophecy, and allowing Dumbledore to claim victory over a second Dark Lord, cementing his position for all time.
 
So Albus manipulates everything to force Harry into essentially setting off Magical Armageddon, killing both Voldemort and himself in the process and leaving Dumbledore around as the only one left capable of picking up the pieces?

It's all a "Let's You and Him fight" strategy leaving Dumbledore as the indisputable and unconquerable tyrant of Wizarding Britain?

Now I'm actually glad that the Gaunt Ring curse worked.
No, Harry dying wouldn't be part of the main plan. It's the 'crap, Plan A was an abject failure and going for a mutual kill is the best I can get' plan. His primary plan was for Harry to kill him and then overthrow the Ministry while also destroying Voldemort in the process.
 
Canon Dumbledore does, in fact, admit that he's not perfect. He, after screwing up with the Ring, realizes that he's not going to be there at the end of this. He sets things up so Harry can have the remaining Hallows in an attempt to atone for his mistakes.

Albus was counting on the Deathly Hallows to protect Harry from a Killing Curse.
 
Dumbledore did not exist as a character, in the Philosopher's Stone. He was wallpaper, the 'kindly but distant headmaster' (who is a bit weird) was as much of him as existed. The only important characters were the children (and not all of those), the adults were cardboard cut-outs.

Yes, this is a Doyalist viewpoint, but it fits the 'modern fairy tale' that was written and sold.

Making this Dumbledore 'fit' with later books was a ret-con. He was passive because it was not his 'job' to be otherwise. Later novels developed his character - he hasn't got a consistent character. It's that simple.

Want to build a Watsonian view of Dumbledore?

Several ways to do this. Saying he was mentally 'not there' for a considerable amount of his time while at Hogwarts may well be best. And, while away from there, he became 'more human', but rationalised what he'd done at the school. Possibly he wasn't allowed to worry about it, spot inconsistencies. He's a great and powerful wizard, but doesn't have any (obvious) defences against having his mind meddled with. Someone like Xeno Lovegood seems far more likely to be defended in that way, given the weirdness he messes with...

What was going on? A nest of some sort of magical creature, in Hogwarts, that takes centuries to mature? Protects itself from assault by bending the minds around it, making them unknowing defenders?

Making sense of a magical world with mundane thinking - may well be futile...

You are, of course, allowed to completely disagree with this. :)
 
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I've fixed the sister/cousin thing so people can stop mentioning now, thanks :)

As far as Dumbledore goes, I can say I'm trying not to write him as the Evil Wizard trope, because aside from anything else it's been done to death. But if you actually look at canon, it is genuinely hard not to end up with that conclusion, or the one where he's basically senile. The plot holes in JKR's writing are... significant. Although that's a different argument this is not the time nor place to get into.

I have a somewhat different set of ideas in play that may explain some if not all of the oddities surrounding the whole thing, and those will be shown in due course :)

It's going to get weirder before things sort themselves out though, I warn you now :evil:

I was recently reading a different Fic and it showed a really great take on Dumbledore that retains his obviously intended character as the wise old mentor but accounts for all those plot holes. It was rather ingenious, simply put he just couldn't beat Fate.

Things in the background kept conspiring to obstruct him making have to deal with various other issues rather than help Harry despite clearly wanting to. He's got two other jobs after all, and then he also has to keep running the school. Like the petrified students not being cured for months. It's not that he didn't go looking for other sources of Mandrake than Hogwarts own greenhouses to cure the students, he very much did and he just couldn't find any. Oh and by the time he got back all the chickens were dead. That sort of thing just kept happening over and over again. So he's juggling hundreds of balls, but has no time to stop or call for help. But because he's Dumbledore and he's obviously "the paragon of modern wizardry" thus he's clearly got everything under control to the average person, so no one else volunteers to help him. All the while the poor guy is getting increasingly more and more overwhelmed and is internally pleading for help.

And well doesn't that just fit the entire theme of the series on how Harry has to deal with all the many expectations that people put on him despite him being utterly clueless. But when Harry fails he is reviled like in Years 2, 4 and 5.
 
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I always distrust people who expose a "for the greater good" justification. Who's greater good are we talking about? Cause a neo-nazi's idea of "greater good" is not the same as what I'd consider "the greater good". And neither of us would have an idea which a native American tribe would consider "the greater good".
I always distrust people who imply they either don't understand they are making tradeoffs, or don't even care about the common good.

You can't trust someone just because they assert they're for the greater good. That's a vacuous claim without details. But that's not what you said.
 
My weird headcanon is that the curse on the position of DADA teacher also had a side effect on the Headmaster position. If you were voldemort, wouldn't you want to screw with your greatest enemy?
 
I don't remember which fic it was from, but I think my favourite line I've seen related to the topic was when someone told Dumbledore something along the lines of "You've forgotten the the Greater Good is made up of all the smaller, lesser Goods"
 
What was going on? A nest of some sort of magical creature, in Hogwarts, that takes centuries to mature? Protects itself from assault by bending the minds around it, making them unknowing defenders?

I like this idea a LOT. Each of the Founders contributing in their own way to protect the Secret Purpose of Hogwarts.

Helga created the Forbidden Forest. A 'moat' to surround and protect it.
Rowena binding ghosts and spirits to the area, including herself. Ever watchful sentinels.
Salazar's Basilisk. A creature so fearsome and deadly that even the mightiest of mages would fall before her.
Godric's Hat. The Sorting Hat. The Mind and Voice of the Castle itself, thus manipulating wizards and witches for fifty generations.

For a thousand years Hogwarts has stood. Untrammeled and Inviolate to those who would wish it ill. Only now will the Truth be Revealed.
 
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I've fixed the sister/cousin thing so people can stop mentioning now, thanks :)

As far as Dumbledore goes, I can say I'm trying not to write him as the Evil Wizard trope, because aside from anything else it's been done to death. But if you actually look at canon, it is genuinely hard not to end up with that conclusion, or the one where he's basically senile. The plot holes in JKR's writing are... significant. Although that's a different argument this is not the time nor place to get into.

I have a somewhat different set of ideas in play that may explain some if not all of the oddities surrounding the whole thing, and those will be shown in due course :)

It's going to get weirder before things sort themselves out though, I warn you now :evil:

I think I once saw a thing where it's the Horocrux in the castle (the diadem) was actually influencing Dumbledore. Something about the headmaster has access to the wards and the diadem, being made with magic from one of the founders, also had access and the horocrux used that to… not corrupt, but amplify his arrogance or something? Make it so Dumbledore thinks he's the only one that can do anything, so he won't tell others. I don't quite remember everything, and it's been a while, but I thought that was an interesting take. I wonder if that's what you are going for.
 
Yes, I'm working from memory, not having done a re-read, so it's possible I've just forget a chunk of story.
They did spend a few hours going through several shops in Diagon Ally, then at least an hour, probably two just explaining everything that happened to Mr. Lovegood during their lunch. Then add in the rest of the conversation. I'd say it's at least three o'clock.
The plot holes in JKR's writing are... significant.
Understatement, really. Though a lot of them could be solved (I feel) by taking Dumbledore out of the major character list. Just have him in the background.
My current bet is that the curse on the DADA position didn't only affect that, but also affected Dumbledore somehow to make strange decisions, e.g. playing things far too close to his chest, not investigating things properly, etc etc. Perhaps with a sub-component where it stopped people from looking too closely into oddities. And now that Voldemort is dead, the curse is gone, and suddenly people (Dumbledore included) are assessing the situation with a clear head. Of course, Dumbledore still feels the need to defend his past actions (that's only human) even while he's starting to wonder why he took those actions in the first place.
I like this, I like this a lot.



I'm sorry, but what part of knowing and deliberately setting up a baby to be groomed and conditioned to die "at the right time" isn't evil?
Except if you look at canon as a whole, that's basically what actually happened. Or Dumbledore is missing all of his marbles. Even ignoring the chat with possibly Dumbledore from the Afterlife.
Harry was a teenager (or almost so) when Albus figured out that the horcruxes were even a part of the equation. Up until that point, he had no thought that Harry's scare had anything more than a bit of magic residue from being cursed by Voldemort.
Of course, he seemingly didn't get it looked at by any healers, which might've turned up something, but that would fall under negligence, not a 'set up a martyr' bit.
There is no interpretation of canon that leaves Dumbledore as reasonably competent, in his right mind, and genuinely benevolent. He's either competent and evil, or mentally unfit.
You have a very narrow (and pessimistic) view of things, don't you? As an example:
I was recently reading a different Fic and it showed a really great take on Dumbledore that retains his obviously intended character as the wise old mentor but accounts for all those plot holes. It was rather ingenious, simply put he just couldn't beat Fate.

Things in the background kept conspiring to obstruct him making have to deal with various other issues rather than help Harry despite clearly wanting to. He's got two other jobs after all, and then he also has to keep running the school. Like the petrified students not being cured for months. It's not that he didn't go looking for other sources of Mandrake than Hogwarts own greenhouses to cure the students, he very much did and he just couldn't find any. Oh and by the time he got back all the chickens were dead. That sort of thing just kept happening over and over again. So he's juggling hundreds of balls, but has no time to stop or call for help. But because he's Dumbledore and he's obviously "the paragon of modern wizardry" thus he's clearly got everything under control to the average person, so no one else volunteers to help him. All the while the poor guy is getting increasingly more and more overwhelmed and is internally pleading for help.

And well doesn't that just fit the entire theme of the series on how Harry has to deal with all his expectations that people put on him despite him being utterly clueless. But when Harry fails he is reviled like in Years 2, 4 and 5.
There are always ways to see HP characters' canon actions in light of how JKR intended for them to be taken.

Please cool it with canon Harry Potter bashing. Yes, it has plot holes galore; everyone knows this. This isn't the place for it.
 
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I have a somewhat different set of ideas in play that may explain some if not all of the oddities surrounding the whole thing, and those will be shown in due course

I've always been fond of the notion that the prophecy is not just real, but actively participating. Dumbledore is doing his absolute best to try and get around it for the sake of Harry/everyone but whenever he presses too hard on the scale it fights back. Harry's well-trained adult parents tried to protect him and got got for the troubles. His friends help him, but being children their actual help is less potentially game-breaking, so their consequences are less bad. Child Ron gets his noggin bumped, Older Hermione gets cursed and tortured, etc.

Dumbles can't actively train Harry because while he might know a lot his actual areas of expertise are known quantities, eg: powers Tom knows, and thus can't be the power he knows not. Hell, anything he says clearly to Harry could give the game up, since Tom could theoretically use Horcrux-vision to learn it.. and thus would be a thing he now knows, instead of knowing not.

Which leaves him with being weird and mystical because that's the image he's cultivated and less scrutinizeable, and which lets him participate as much as possible. He eventually stacks the deck hard enough and ends up dead for it.
 
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Dumbledore is also unwilling to exercise what political power he has to do good out of a paralyzing fear of causing harm, evading his responsibility. Instead he ended up yielding it thru inaction to the Death Eaters and their sympathizers, causing even greater harm.
I agree with the end result (inaction causing harm) but not with the underlying cause. His fear is not merely causing harm, but killing those who might be capable of changing course. His fixation on the power of redemption is near pathological, and someone really needs to ask him exactly how many people's suffering and deaths are acceptable to allow the cause(s) of them yet more chances at redemption. A genuine utilitarian approach - the closest thing to a functional "Greater Good" viewpoint I can think of - would argue precisely the converse of Dumbledore, and indeed would also argue that death is significantly more merciful than Azkaban, which is a form of imprisonment with bonus slow torture. (And yet he never really advocates carceral reform, which would be an unambiguous good for Wizarding Britain...)

Whether his fixation on redeeming those who would harm others is based in his youthful affections for Grindelwald, regret over Ariana's death, or some other cause (unexamined anger over his father's imprisonment, maybe?) his need to give second, third, ad infinitum chances to violent criminals and his unwillingness to sanction lethal action by 'his' side have resulted in massive harm. Rather like the alleged excuses for not using lethal force against villain capes in Worm, even the claims of avoiding unnecessary escalation don't really stand up to scrutiny given that it just results in a deeply lopsided situation where the baddies happily use lethal force and their opposition is hamstrung. And yet, even in this story, Dumbledore is busy making disapproving faces any time Skitter et al use or even voice approval of lethal responses to lethal force. It's very clearly not rational, and is at least one reason why Dumbledore comes off as either ineffectual, incompetent, or secretly evil.
 
I've fixed the sister/cousin thing so people can stop mentioning it now, thanks :)

As far as Dumbledore goes, I can say I'm trying not to write him as the Evil Wizard trope, because aside from anything else it's been done to death. But if you actually look at canon, it is genuinely hard not to end up with that conclusion, or the one where he's basically senile. The plot holes in JKR's writing are... significant. Although that's a different argument this is not the time nor place to get into.

I have a somewhat different set of ideas in play that may explain some if not all of the oddities surrounding the whole thing, and those will be shown in due course :)

It's going to get weirder before things sort themselves out though, I warn you now :evil:
For some reason cognitohazards just jumped into my head. I'm not sure I've seen a fanfic play too heavily with the idea that Dumbledore's interesting decisions might have to do with dealing with things that are truly dangerous to just be aware of, and become more so the more that know of it.

With all the wooly potential of wizard mind magic, the idea of Dumbledore trying to work to deal with a situation where he must keep vital details out of his own head, or mentally suppressed, and so he spends 99% of his time working to a plan he literally can't understand outside of brief, dangerous moments when he allows himself full sight of the real problem. He'd basically be playing telephone in his own head, giving himself goals or directions or forbidding actions or whatnot in those brief moments of full knowledge, and then having to keep going for months or weeks, faced with problems that he didn't foresee in those brief moments, meaning he's having to try to deduce why he made certain choices and keep the ship aimed the right way,

And each rare moment of full clarity would then require more and more ad hoc patches to the plan,trying to correct mistakes, making it even harder for day to day Dumbledore to figure out what he should do when faced with the unforeseen, and leaving his actions to often be contradictory, picking up and dropping things, reversing course, and all the while having to sell this nonsense as a plan so nobody goes digging and stumbles across the Secret, but also will do what he says. He'd have to routinely lock away some of his own previous decisions and actions to keep Daily Dumbledore from thinking on some things, meaning he'd be making more decisions lacking vital context, unaware of things he'd himself done.

I'm just imagining a ritual every summer, on the Solstice, wherein he has a full hour in which he can unlock and hold that knowledge and beholds the full problem — and it's 45 minute of cursing and frantic notes to himself, erasing some of his own decisions so he doesn't use them to influence future him, severing actions and consequences especially his own, writing cryptic to keep himself from getting too close and accidentally remembering , having to purposefully sever and block so much of the mental web of associations, trying to walk a fine line of what daily Dumbledore will interpret right but not get too thoughtful about, especially not the wrong sort of thoughts leading the wrong way, but make sure it gets done — and then like 15 minutes of crying and nervous breakdown.

Solstice Dumbledore is all 'for gods sake, what the flying fuck? How did I bone this so badly? Fuck, fuck ,fuck, FUCK I'm going to hell for this, for effing sure".

I mean that's a fun Chessmaster, a plotter and manipulator. He'd be trying to Xanatos gambit himself, forced to manipulate everyone else to try to keep things predictable enough to actually plan his own responses to it, to try to get something important done. And of course it wouldn't work, except perhaps by accident.
 
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They did spend a few hours going through several shops in Diagon Ally, then at least an hour, probably two just explaining everything that happened to Mr. Lovegood during their lunch. Then add in the rest of the conversation. I'd say it's at least three o'clock.

Understatement, really. Though a lot of them could be solved (I feel) by taking Dumbledore out of the major character list. Just have him in the background.

I like this, I like this a lot.





Harry was a teenager (or almost so) when Albus figured out that the horcruxes were even a part of the equation. Up until that point, he had no thought that Harry's scare had anything more than a bit of magic residue from being cursed by Voldemort.
Of course, he seemingly didn't get it looked at by any healers, which might've turned up something, but that would fall under negligence, not a 'set up a martyr' bit.

You have a very narrow (and pessimistic) view of things, don't you? As an example:

There are always ways to see HP characters' canon actions in light of how JKR intended for them to be taken.

Please cool it with canon Harry Potter bashing. Yes, it has plot holes galore; everyone knows this. This isn't the place for it.
If Dumbledore didn't know about the alleged Scarcrux until after Second Year, that simply makes Harry's time spent at the Dursley's prior to that even more unforgivable, since Dumbledore - by his own words - knew that Harry was not being well cared for there and would not be. It would have been relatively trivial for Dumbledore to ensure that the Dursleys cared for Harry properly, and Harry grew up aware of the magical world and his place in it*. Or ensured that Sirius got interrogated and a trial, which would have cleared his name, and allowed Sirius to be Harry's guardian and caretaker as James and Lily intended. Or with one of the other families James and Lily had come to an agreement with in the event of their death to take care of Harry if necessary.
*if nothing else, Dumbledore could have acquired a Time Turner for, say, Mcgonagall to spend every other Saturday with Harry.


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Except saying Dumbledore is trying to fight Fate or the Prophecy and losing, to justify things does not actually justify the actions Dumbledore took*, merely some of the apparent lack of action.
Furthermore, that is going and adding things that are not canon as written in the books. It's an interesting basis for a fanfic, but it's not canon.
*again, going back to dropping Harry on the Dursley doorstep overnight with just a letter, before Sirius caught up to Pettigrew or the Longbottoms were attacked - that was entirely unnecessary and easily avoidable ... unless Dumbledore wanted Harry in a bad position and easily manipulated by him, or straight up didn't care about Harry.
Likewise, preventing Snape from convincing Fudge that Sirius Black had Confounded Harry, Hermione, and Ron, and that Sirius Black's claims should be looked into, and he be given a trial, or at the very least he should be properly interrogated by Amelia Bones and the DMLE to find out how he escaped to prevent others from utilizing the same method, before being summarily Kissed, and/or talking to Amelia Bones about the lack of trial after Sirius flew off on Buckbeak, before Fudge turned against Dumbledore over Voldemort's return ... that should all have been an easy and straightforward step.


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How does keeping Harry in the dark and feeding him bullshit improve his ability to overcome Voldemort? It doesn't, it just leaves him even further behind, and vulnerable to all the Death Eaters between Harry and Voldemort.
The "lessons" Dumbledore gave Harry about Riddle in Sixth Year could have been covered in far less time - the only memory Dumbledore didn't already have was Slughorn's, and I refuse to believe that Dumbledore actually needed Harry to get the truth out of Slughorn - which would leave Harry with time to train, prepare, or brainstorm about where Riddle might have stashed his various Horcruxes.

Besides, if Dumbledore were truly that concerned about the Scarcrux link, he'd have had Harry taught Occlumency as soon as he learned about it, and by someone other than Snape ... say, someone who can actually teach. I am absolutely certain that the real Mad-Eye Moody knows Occlumency, for example. Barty Junior had to have known Occlumency.


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To view the canon as written in the books actions as JKR supposedly intended them requires going beyond the scope of canon and inserting some kind of reason to explain the discrepancies.
And that's perfectly good grounds for fanfics to use.
But you have to remember that doing so is venturing into the realm of fanfiction, fanon, or personal headcanon to justify the discrepancies between canon as written and the supposedly competent benevolent Dumbledore JKR intended. Evil Dumbledore is an easy and straightforward explanation of canon, as is Mentally Unfit Dumbledore ... but while both are canon-compatible, neither is actually canon as written.
 
Canon as written invariably ends up in a mass of mutually exclusive contradictions. You have to assume that either quite a lot of things simply aren't documented in the historical records, meaning you need to do some extrapolation to fill in the holes, or a fair amount of things that are documented are in fact wrongly documented...

Because the story as it is on the page doesn't hold water at all well, whatever the reason behind that. Internal consistency is a thing, and apparently JKR looked at it and went "Nah, I've got a better idea!" :D

That's what people like me are here to fix!

"Nice story you got there. Shame if something were to happen to it..."

:evil:
 
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