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Full Moon Blues (SI, Crossover, Dragonball/MCU)

Should there be more Saiyans out there?

  • Yes; a whole planet full.

    Votes: 6 4.5%

  • Yes; a few straggling survivors

    Votes: 60 44.8%

  • Yes; with radical alterations from Dragonball canon

    Votes: 13 9.7%

  • Yes; as it is in DBZ, complete with Freeza

    Votes: 38 28.4%

  • No; Charud should be the only one.

    Votes: 54 40.3%
  • Total voters
    134
  • Poll closed .
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Neruz said:
It's less that humans are naturally talented and more that they are massively naturally untalented, earthlings are naturally so hilariously bad at Ki that they had to develop super advanced techniques like Ki Sensing and Power Up in order to be able to actually do anything useful with the stuff in the first place.

Remember, the humans seen in Dragonball are the best of the best, the absolute apex of human ability. They are not representative of the species as a whole, in the same way that Olympic athletes are not representative of the average person. Humans are naturally so weak that they need extensive training before they can even use Ki in the first place, whereas literally every other species in the series seems to be capable of at least basic Ki usage naturally without any training at all.

So even the most basic earthling Ki user is incredibly well trained by normal standards, they have to be, because if they weren't they couldn't use Ki in the first place. Earthling techniques are all hyper-focused around efficiency and making the most out of very little, with an additional focus on temporary power-ups like the Kaio-Ken and 'external' Ki techniques like the Spirit Bomb. Basically all methods to supplement their naturally poor Ki capacity.

Being able to sense Ki right from the 'start' of their Ki usage, as well as having to use very small amounts of Ki as efficiently as possible, would promote an exceptional degree of precision and control. Remember; the average Dragonball Ki user cannot sense Ki, including their own. They have no proprioception of their own Ki, imagine trying to learn traditional martial arts without the ability to precisely sense where your arms and legs are in relation to the rest of you, that is the normal Dragonball Ki user.

Of course, there's no reason why those techniques can't also be applied by species with strong innate Ki capacity, which is exactly what we see with Goku and co, and is a major part of why they are so damn stronk.
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Considering all these recent, nice DBZ stories, I was thinking on exactly this the other day.

And, while I'm a casual fan only, and only watched the bits of the Tournament of Power I caught on FB clips that showed up on my feed, I was hella impressed with Master Roshi (or Master Kame, depending on the translation). His Sealing technique got me thinking more or less what you said about: earthlings have stupidly well polished and complex Ki techs, because they have essentially no Ki to speak of.

So Master Roshi gets to use his SSS+ Ki Control to put a motherfucker with power level in the seven digits inside a bottle without even getting touched, but only a few times at best.

From the little I've watched, the Tournament of Power was pretty fun as everyone was mostly competitive, excepting Jiren.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
Considering all these recent, nice DBZ stories, I was thinking on exactly this the other day.

And, while I'm a casual fan only, and only watched the bits of the Tournament of Power I caught on FB clips that showed up on my feed, I was hella impressed with Master Roshi (or Master Kame, depending on the translation). His Sealing technique got me thinking more or less what you said about: earthlings have stupidly well polished and complex Ki techs, because they have essentially no Ki to speak of.

So Master Roshi gets to use his SSS+ Ki Control to put a motherfucker with power level in the seven digits inside a bottle without even getting touched, but only a few times at best.

From the little I've watched, the Tournament of Power was pretty fun as everyone was mostly competitive, excepting Jiren.
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The weirdest part about that was that the writers suddenly remembered that the Mafuba technique existed after like twenty years of it never being used when it probably should have been. I honestly think that Toriyama DIDN'T remember it and had to be reminded by a fan or something. It would have solved SO many problems if they'd used the ability they had the whole time to deal with people who were way stronger than them, but they almost never do.
 
RoyalNoises said:
The weirdest part about that was that the writers suddenly remembered that the Mafuba technique existed after like twenty years of it never being used when it probably should have been. I honestly think that Toriyama DIDN'T remember it and had to be reminded by a fan or something. It would have solved SO many problems if they'd used the ability they had the whole time to deal with people who were way stronger than them, but they almost never do.
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Destructo Disk, too.

Point is, you can beat someone with literal orders of magnitude more raw power than yourself, with sufficiently complex technique. Which is pretty neat and should have been used more throughout the story, to keep things interesting both ways, i.e. with mook-tier PL foes with master-level techniques being serious fights.

In a way, I think Superior Instinct does that?
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
Destructo Disk, too.

Point is, you can beat someone with literal orders of magnitude more raw power than yourself, with sufficiently complex technique. Which is pretty neat and should have been used more throughout the story, to keep things interesting both ways, i.e. with mook-tier PL foes with master-level techniques being serious fights.

In a way, I think Superior Instinct does that?
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There are tons and tons of chances within Dragonball for the weaker fighters to still make a difference or catch up to the big boys; but they never do, because little kids wouldn't like it if Krillin beat the bad guy, they want Goku to do it with his big number.

Even chances to make up the numbers haven't been properly taken. Like, God Ki is not restricted to saiyans at all, but for some reason none of the other Z fighters ever even try to learn to use it. Same thing with Ultra Instinct.
 
RoyalNoises said:
The weirdest part about that was that the writers suddenly remembered that the Mafuba technique existed after like twenty years of it never being used when it probably should have been. I honestly think that Toriyama DIDN'T remember it and had to be reminded by a fan or something. It would have solved SO many problems if they'd used the ability they had the whole time to deal with people who were way stronger than them, but they almost never do.
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TotallyNotEvil said:
Destructo Disk, too.
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RoyalNoises said:
Even chances to make up the numbers haven't been properly taken. Like, God Ki is not restricted to saiyans at all, but for some reason none of the other Z fighters ever even try to learn to use it. Same thing with Ultra Instinct.
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Same thing with Kaio-Ken, which was particularly egregious. Both because it'd be hella useful, and also because if they didn't learn it what the shit did the Z fighters even do for the months they were on King Kai's planet?
 
RoyalNoises said:
I honestly think that Toriyama DIDN'T remember it
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He forgets alot of things.
Do you write down notes anywhere for that sort of background information?
No, I don't do that. That's why I keep on forgetting things. If I don't forget stuff, new ideas won't come to mind. For example, you know how there's "Super Saiyan 3"?

Yes. Where the hair gets long.
I didn't know that. (laughs) The whole time, I thought that was "Super Saiyan 2". (laughs)

Whaaa?!
And I drew that myself. (laughs) Anyhow, I thought "2" was the one with long hair. It was like, "Man, I've really forgotten stuff…".
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I get that Heimdall is capable of looking at anywhere in the universe, maybe multiple parts or even all of it at once. But I don't see the reasoning behind "troll appears on midgard, haven't seen him before, must not be what he appears to be." It would make more sense if he was like, "oh, that's not good, one or more trolls have been beyond my sight for an unknown length of time."
 
Human8130 said:
I get that Heimdall is capable of looking at anywhere in the universe, maybe multiple parts or even all of it at once. But I don't see the reasoning behind "troll appears on midgard, haven't seen him before, must not be what he appears to be." It would make more sense if he was like, "oh, that's not good, one or more trolls have been beyond my sight for an unknown length of time."
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It was because he just appeared there, he didn't travel there, he just popped into existence rather than moving there from elsewhere in the universe.

This is also a subtle hint here that Heimdall doesn't just see the physical locations of things, there's a more mystical aspect that lets him see things about Charud that he isn't mentioning specifically.
 
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I thought Heimdall could see the whole cosmos, not that he saw the whole cosmos constantly.

Otherwise he could never be surprised.

Can he see the past also?
 
RoyalNoises said:
It was because he just appeared there, he didn't travel there, he just popped into existence rather than moving there from elsewhere in the universe.

This is also a subtle hint here that Heimdall doesn't just see the physical locations of things, there's a more mystical aspect that lets him see things about Charud that he isn't mentioning specifically.
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Tbh, the mystical aspect is what makes Asgardians interesting.

One thing that I loved most about Infinity War was how it felt Thor was on a saga. "And thus Thor traveled to Nidavellir, to ask the dwarves to forge a weapon with which to defeat Thanos".

"And then Thort threw his hammer, and made the rings of Nidavellir spin again", "and then Thor held open the gates by which the fire poured on the forge", "and so the last dwarf of Nidavellir forged him Stormbreaker".

Like there's a real narrative going on around Asgardians.
 
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TotallyNotEvil said:
Tbh, the mystical aspect is what makes Asgardians interesting.

One thing that I loved most about Infinity War was how it felt Thor was on a saga. "And thus Thor traveled to Niflheim, to ask the dwarves to forge a weapon with which to defeat Thanos".

"And then Thort threw his hammer, and made the rings of Niflheim spin again", "and then Thor held open the gates by which the fire poured on the forge", "and so the last dwarf of Niflheim forged him Stormbreaker".

Like there's a real narrative going on around Asgardians.
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Nidavellir, not Niflheim, but yes I get what you're going for. :p
 
Teriff said:
Pretty sure the reason Trunks and Goten never had tails was because Toriyama forgot they should have them.
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Apparently because it was a pain to draw.
Is it true that Goku's tail was a nuisance?!
It's true. (laughs) Goku was originally an actual monkey in the initial sketches, after all. My editor told me, "Without a tail, he has no distinguishing traits," so I added a tail. That tail I added was such a nuisance when I was drawing, I couldn't stand it… so I immediately thought up an episode where his tail gets cut off. (laughs)
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deadcrystal said:
Same thing with Kaio-Ken, which was particularly egregious. Both because it'd be hella useful, and also because if they didn't learn it what the shit did the Z fighters even do for the months they were on King Kai's planet?
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The Kaio-Ken is partially justified; Goku is literally the only person ever to successfully use the technique without exploding, even King Kai, who invented the technique, was unable to properly master it.

Everything else though? Yeah. There's a ton of techniques that just get forgotten and only pop up again when they're no longer all that relevant.
 
So Zenkais alter a Saiyan's physiology in such a way so as to give them more advantages in a fight. Like a longer reach. With half a foot extra he must have like Tommy Hearns arms.
 
Lessthanyouthink said:
So Zenkais alter a Saiyan's physiology in such a way so as to give them more advantages in a fight. Like a longer reach. With half a foot extra he must have like Tommy Hearns arms.
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Not quite. This is a hint that things are not quite the same for Charud as they are for regular Dragonball saiyans.

For a variety of reasons, including the fact that his first Oozaru transformation took place when he was already an adult, it effected him differently than it normally does. He's effectively going through Saiyan puberty because his tail glands have been properly activated.
 
RoyalNoises said:
Not quite. This is a hint that things are not quite the same for Charud as they are for regular Dragonball saiyans.

For a variety of reasons, including the fact that his first Oozaru transformation took place when he was already an adult, it effected him differently than it normally does. He's effectively going through Saiyan puberty because his tail glands have been properly activated.
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Oh kais Tony is going to be fun when he finds out.
 
RoyalNoises said:
Not quite. This is a hint that things are not quite the same for Charud as they are for regular Dragonball saiyans.

For a variety of reasons, including the fact that his first Oozaru transformation took place when he was already an adult, it effected him differently than it normally does. He's effectively going through Saiyan puberty because his tail glands have been properly activated.
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So sayans only start puberty after their tails gets their first time? Kinky!
 
I don't get why he needs to explain things though. Alien from space, or random guy that got body swapped into a space alien he knows from a manga, it changes literally nothing as far as the rest of the Avengers are concerned. At best, it serves to waste a couple paragraphs of everyone talking about it and reconciling, then never bringing it up again.

It would make more sense if there were no Saiyans in this universe and he got called out on it by Thor revealing such, but Saiyans do exist, meaning there is zero reason to refute his cover story.
 
Kolarthecool said:
I don't get why he needs to explain things though. Alien from space, or random guy that got body swapped into a space alien he knows from a manga, it changes literally nothing as far as the rest of the Avengers are concerned. At best, it serves to waste a couple paragraphs of everyone talking about it and reconciling, then never bringing it up again.

It would make more sense if there were no Saiyans in this universe and he got called out on it by Thor revealing such, but Saiyans do exist, meaning there is zero reason to refute his cover story.
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It's because when you become friends with someone based on false pretenses, no matter how objectively harmless, it still feels bad and you want to be honest with them because that's what a decent person would do.

And also because even though Saiyans do exist, the universe just isn't the same, and the knowledge that the SI has about them is not necessarily accurate, and so to keep the charade going he'd have to just keep stacking lies forever and that's tiresome.
 
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