Full Moon Blues (SI, Crossover, Dragonball/MCU)

[pancakes]

That doesn't matter.

Seriously, I know that this is probably the wrong website to have this opinion on; but none of that matters. It's just a sort of literal hyperbole used by an author who didn't really care about implications when he wrote it. Just abandon this idea that planet busting matters. If you go down this rabbit hole, then the Saiyan Saga is where power levels peak. Nothing matters at all after that point, because after you can blow up planets, there's just nothing to escalate to. Because you can't FIGHT someone who can do that. It doesn't matter how powerful you are if your opponent can just blow away the rock you were defending in the first place. Nothing makes sense in a world where Vegeta can blow up planets and yet we're supposed to care about the stakes. Because after that, if a fight takes place on the surface of a planet, it's because the participants have either agreed to some kind of gentleman's truce where nobody blows up any planets so they can have a punch up, or because they've forgotten they can do that for no reason.

Everything, even DBZ itself, makes so much more sense if you just ignore all planet busting feats and pretend they can't do it.

The ONLY time anybody seems to USE their ability to blow up planets properly is in Resurrection F when Freeza decides to just blow up the earth because he wasn't having fun anymore, and then they immediately retconned it in universe via time travel. Thus making it like it never happened at all. It's nonsense.

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That does happen though. Kid Bu blows up the planet.
Before that everyone else either kinda liked earth,needed it, or didn't care about the planet enough to blow it up. Raditz couldn't destroy it, Vegeta needed the dragon balls, King Cold gets one shot, the androids were once humans and like earth, Cell needs a place to hold the cell games.
Then we have Kid Bu who promptly decides fuck this I'm out.

 

[Acolyte]

Maybe that works in a world where all conflicts are just minor disagreements and we're supposed to believe that the androids, cell, majin buu, and everybody in Super are just friendly rivals having a good time, and not existential threats who actually want to win.

To be frank, it doesn't even make sense in that context, because if you were having a real contest with somebody who you wanted to beat to prove you are the strongest, why would you ever hold back enough to avoid destroying the planet!? If you're capable of destroying a planet, logically speaking, fighting at your full strength involves destroying the planet. If you don't, then you didn't really try and you didn't really care.

Again. This all just makes so much more sense and is so much easier to parse if you just ignore that planet busting is a thing that happened. Just forget it. I have, and that's how I'm treating this.

Charud is not currently as strong as Vegeta, but given the amount of time and resources that exist in the MCU, he absolutely will be one day, and when that happens, he STILL won't be able to blow up planets, because as far as I'm concerned, nobody can, because if they could, then they would, and the story would be pointless. The closest anybody can get is with ridiculously overpowered artifacts like the Bifrost or the Infinity Gauntlet, and both of those still require a huge amount of build up and prep time and investment. Nobody is doing it casually, or easily. Period.

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But they are fighting to prove thier superiorty. And they cant destroy the planet because most blast are ment to distract people. We have literally seen no one seriously hurt any serious and ready fighter. And the planet blowing up attack take time to charge that would see them punched in the face. So at this point it is just ignoring things that you dont like. Which is fine as an author of this story but it isnt all that valid a arguement. I mean it happens at so many time it isnt even a outlier.

 

[RoyalNoises]

But they are fighting to prove thier superiorty. And they cant destroy the planet because most blast are ment to distract people. We have literally seen no one seriously hurt any serious and ready fighter. And the planet blowing up attack take time to charge that would see them punched in the face. So at this point it is just ignoring things that you dont like. Which is fine as an author of this story but it isnt all that valid a arguement. I mean it happens at so many time it isnt even a outlier.

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You're telling me that Vegeta was fully capable of destroying the planet with an attack he had to charge for a while, but a guy who is literally a hundred thousand times as strong as him ALSO STILL needs to charge up for it? Why? Why could he not blow up the earth with an expenditure of effort no greater than you or I would exert swatting a fly?

 

[Acolyte]

You're telling me that Vegeta was fully capable of destroying the planet with an attack he had to charge for a while, but a guy who is literally a hundred thousand times as strong as him ALSO STILL needs to charge up for it? Why? Why could he not blow up the earth with an expenditure of effort no greater than you or I would exert swatting a fly?

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Because those take up just as much a part of his power. If he uses the same technique he just puts in more power because that is how he was trained. Like it is a fact that freza never trained his powers properly. If he ttained he would be probably able to do it. And always the slightest delays can mean a loss in battle. The effeort is better spent on destroying the peer first.
And anyway most of gokus enemies were untrained in their figher or had instictual knowldge and not actuall practice or technique.
Like there are multiple reasons for it.
Maube nobody just thought of that. I mean you cant ignore such a large part of the stories just because we arent given an explicit reason for it. The plot changes massivly if you just ignore stuff.

 

[Flutters Is Shy]

That does happen though. Kid Bu blows up the planet.
Before that everyone else either kinda liked earth,needed it, or didn't care about the planet enough to blow it up. Raditz couldn't destroy it, Vegeta needed the dragon balls, King Cold gets one shot, the androids were once humans and like earth, Cell needs a place to hold the cell games.
Then we have Kid Bu who promptly decides fuck this I'm out.

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It basically boiled down to power creep and Toriyama having to justify the baddies not blowing up planets to keep a sense of dramatic tension going in the story. Do you remember when Kid Buu blew up Earth? He showed up, a few pages later the planet was floating chunks. Toriyama immediately realized his mistake by removing the possibility of Buu blowing up the Kai's planet for the next fight scene with the inane claim from the supreme Kai of 'he'll find this world is made of sterner stuff!'

So, basically, 'noooo, you can't blow up this one. Because.'

Maybe downgrade planet busting to nuclear scale? Maybe Frieza can't blow up a planet without technological assistance, like a Death Star styled focusing lens tube? And maybe such a feat would leave them vulnerable on the wind up, and even more so after the fact. Like draining the entirety of ki from your body, dead on your feet.

To such an extent that no one would ever even think about doing such a thing, even if they were physically capable of the feat. Always afraid that someone would take advantage of their weakness.

 

[Neruz]

The only way to even vaguely make the planet destroying make anything remotely approaching sense is if it is some specific technique that sets off some kind of reaction in a planet's core, requiring X amount of power and Y amount of time and it doesn't matter how much stronger you are than X, it still takes Y amount of time.

Even then, it still doesn't make sense how absurdly easily planets get broken (and repaired) throughout the series, but it at least somewhat explains why people can be capable of exploding planets while simultaneously also being capable of getting into massive fights on the surface of planets without accidentally cracking said planets in the collateral. Also explains why Frieza would be one of the few people who actually does blow up planets, as unlike most people he can in fact survive being stuck in space for awhile should he end up needing to explode the world he is currently on. It's not going to be pleasant, or easy, and it's not going to be something he does unless he's got no other choice or is hanging out safe in a spaceship behind a big wall of minions to keep the enemy occupied while he charges up the planet buster, but it is an option he has that most other people do not.

Ultimately, planets get blown up when Toriyama feels like an exploding planet would make the story feel more dramatic. And DBZ's planetary fragility is an obvious outlier; even Roshi was able to blow up the goddamn moon. DBZ celestial bodies are apparently primarily composed of styrofoam and C4.

 

[Acolyte]

It basically boiled down to power creep and Toriyama having to justify the baddies not blowing up planets to keep a sense of dramatic tension going in the story. Do you remember when Kid Buu blew up Earth? He showed up, a few pages later the planet was floating chunks. Toriyama immediately realized his mistake by removing the possibility of Buu blowing up the Kai's planet for the next fight scene with the inane claim from the supreme Kai of 'he'll find this world is made of sterner stuff!'

So, basically, 'noooo, you can't blow up this one. Because.'

Maybe downgrade planet busting to nuclear scale? Maybe Frieza can't blow up a planet without technological assistance, like a Death Star styled focusing lens tube? And maybe such a feat would leave them vulnerable on the wind up, and even more so after the fact. Like draining the entirety of ki from your body, dead on your feet.

To such an extent that no one would ever even think about doing such a thing, even if they were physically capable of the feat. Always afraid that someone would take advantage of their weakness.

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So it is just a nerf for no reason. This is probably not even going to matter in story cause earth has things that are valuable enough not to blow it up.
Whats next nerf glactus so he can only eat astriods or nerf the infinty stones so that they only work on one planet.

 

[Neruz]

You seem to be unusually focused and hostile about this one particular area of DBZ nonsense, especially given that said area is a massive outlier even within the series itself. If Vegeta levels of power really are all you need to make a planet explode like a giant fragmentation grenade, then the fight with Beerus should be shattering stars and snapping galaxies in half with every strike. And that just doesn't make for an interesting story under most circumstances.

 

[Zealous Specter]

Or we can all just not care and have planets blow up. If it's an important planet, then there can be a reason why its fixed like Toriyama pulls out of his ass all the time. All this Power levels talk is a derail and entirely pointless.

 

[Acolyte]

You seem to be unusually focused and hostile about this one particular area of DBZ nonsense, especially given that said area is a massive outlier even within the series itself. If Vegeta levels of power really are all you need to make a planet explode like a giant fragmentation grenade, then the fight with Beerus should be shattering stars and snapping galaxies in half with every strike. And that just doesn't make for an interesting story under most circumstances.

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Could have?? Wasnt it at a point threatning to destroy the universe?? Do i rember it wrong.

 

[Imperator Gnome]

I always thought that blowing up planets was more a matter of how the energy was shaped and patterned instead of the amount of energy in the attack. Which is why most attacks don't just instantly blow up the planet.

 

[Serran]

Not sure if I am all that happy of no planetbusting being possible. There is a reasonable (by DBZ standards) explanation for every enemy who could blow up the planet not blowing up the planet bar Kid Buu. And he blew up the planet. For me the delicate dance between fighting an enemy while the very battleground could be wipped was an important part of DBZ.

As for all of the fights not 'accidentlying' the planet the main reasoning seems to be the magic Bioenergy not behaving like any other energy we know of IRL. That trait of Ki and the selfcontrol of the fighters seems to contain Transnuclear level blasts to damage of a handgreanade on the surroundings if your control is good enough.
Which is more then reasonable from the point of anyone fighting in a DBZ kind of battle. If your Ki blasts detonationrange is to large it might distract you. Any enemy that is not hit directly only by the blast radius, is either to strong to be inconvinienced by the miniscule fraction he is hit with or so weak that you only miss when you want to. There is apparently no middle ground and the square cube law seems to be at least somwhat applicable.

Not that you (and we readers) have to worry about it quite yet. That level of power is something that only happens post Namek in DBZ and a real consideration was only necessary when the Androids showed up.

I haven't voted on any Sayajins or Frieza showing up. Mainly because I can't really decide. Right now I'd be happy to have it as a looming possible threat in the background. You started this very well with Thor ragging against the "Moon Troll". Don't know if Loki in Avengers could namedrop Frieza or Planet Vegeta's destruction. You might need to decide organically while writing the story if you include an arc or even a chapter of such a danger materilising.

If we ignore the insanely narcistic selfabsorbed Morons (Vegeta) rambling and just look at how the humans in DBZ could fight, then they were roughly in the same ballpark as an untransformed Sayajin. Provided they got the same quality of Training, which left every Z-Fighter roughly on the same level after the Namek saga. Any comments on how powerful the Humans here are going to be?

 

[Neruz]

Keep in mind though that the humans that fight in DBZ are the top 1% of the top 1% of the top 1% of the top 1% of human ki users, or thereabouts. They're literally The Best In The World. Very much not indicative of the standard ability of the species, unlike Saiyans who are effectively battle-ready and capable of punching holes in sheet metal from birth, and naturally develop the ability to use Ki for flight and energy blasts. That's not even accounting for the Saiyan learning capacity; Saiyans learn to fight so quickly that they become measurably better over the course of a single sparring session. They master entire styles of combat in a matter of weeks, their children routinely single-handedly conquer entire planets.

Asgardians calling them 'planet pillaging moon trolls' and basically doing the Asgardian equivalent of going 'holy shit that's a fucking tiger KILL IT OR RUN!' is entirely apt. The silver lining is of course that Saiyans are naturally so stronk that they tend to plateau easily and waste their potential, or alternately they spend so much time fighting each other that they never get anywhere useful. They also tend not to form particularly large groups, nor co-operate very much unless under threat from a substantially greater power to do so. And even then they're liable to stand back and watch as one of their number gets the shit kicked out of him rather than work in concert, Saiyans are not very social creatures, on the whole.

Which makes sense for what is basically an apex predator with all the dials set on 'ridiculously op.'

 

[Terran Imperium]

It is a bit of a well-known fact but each blast and punch are capable of doing much more than destroying mountains. The characters in DBZ learn early on to control their power, how to launch a literal planet-busting punch at your enemy without actually just destroying everything around you. Why? Because it is more efficient and powerful, you're targeting the enemy, not the environment. When they lose control or simply don't care about it, we can see severe repercussions on the environment, for example when Goku turned SSJ3 for the first time, the entire planet was shaken literally, he caused natural disasters worldwide from his ki going out of control.

Earth could actually have gotten destroyed if Goku took longer to transform. A few episodes later where Goku has more control over his form and fights Kid Buu in that Kai realm, he's throwing punches at full power and yet the realm isn't being torn apart as in destroyed completely. The first thing Gohan did to make Videl learn is to first control her ki after being aware of it. It's all about control and there are tons and tons of examples in the series from DB to even DBS. I mean, before even Raditz, Roshi destroyed the moon at a power level in the hundreds or so.

^ By the way, this is something the author seems to be aware of and mentioned it multiple times during the story. Charud himself mentions that he is nowhere near Roshi's level in being able to blow up a moon. He would sooner blow up himself if he tried because he isn't sufficiently controlling his ki. I talked about this a bit more in detail in this thread, just get past all the numbers, it is irrelevant to this here but there are a few useful pieces of information.

Spoiler: The relevant part

1) Power level correlates directly with destructive potential and physical stats.

A normal farmer has a power level of five. 5 * 27.6 = 139 = the power level of master roshi at the point when he destroyed the moon. If we assume power level correlates linearly with destructive potential then we have to say 27.6 normal farmers working together would be able to destroy the moon.

Trying to find the mathematical relationship between power level and destructive potential doesn't often work as we don't have enough good and consistent data points to find the formula that uses, if it even uses one.

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Well, we can say that someone needs a certain to surpass a certain threshold of power to start manipulating their Ki energy. If I had to go off an assumption from what we've seen in DB and DBZ. Maybe somewhere between 40 to 100.
What does that mean? While 27.6 normal farmers could theoretically destroy the moon together, they'll have to manipulate their Ki energy to a sufficient enough mastery level to destroy it which is not possible at a power level of 5.

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Aforementioned thread: Son Goku's Power but with Science(Physics and Math) - Technical

 

[Neruz]

Having the energy vanish into nowhere because they're 'controlling their power' does not improve matters.

 

[Terran Imperium]

Having the energy vanish into nowhere because they're 'controlling their power' does not improve matters.

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Did you read what I wrote? It doesn't vanish, it is concentrated into small points. Those blasts and punches, they're basically tanking planet-busting power. A control so refined, they can do that much and if not, their power can be a bit too destructive and even dangerous to their own body.
Ki is a double-edged sword, and you need to be able to control it to perfection or it'll kill you because you're using it like an idiot. Whoops, you just blew up your hand while trying to charge up a blast, too bad.

This is basically DB canon and how they explain it. It may be far-fetched but so is the existence of Ki in the first place or just the Marvel universe in general. When you're reading a fantastical story, you generally have a pretty durable suspension of disbelief and try to not extrapolate from reality or make too much sense out of it.

 

[Neruz]

Did you read what I wrote? It doesn't vanish, it is concentrated into small points. Those blasts and punches, they're basically tanking planet-busting power. A control so refined, they can do that much and if not, their power can be a bit too destructive and even dangerous to their own body.
Ki is a double-edged sword, and you need to be able to control it to perfection or it'll kill you because you're using it like an idiot. Whoops, you just blew up your hand while trying to charge up a blast, too bad.

This is basically DB canon and how they explain it. It may be far-fetched but so is the existence of Ki in the first place or just the Marvel universe in general. When you're reading a fantastical story, you generally have a pretty durable suspension of disbelief and try to not extrapolate from reality or make too much sense out of it.

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But they don't always tank it, plenty of times they dodge attacks entirely which then go on to cause various amounts of collateral damage, but nowhere near enough. Where does all the energy go?

Either there's less energy in those blasts than they claim there is, or 99% of the energy just up and vanishes on a miss.

 

[Terran Imperium]

But they don't always tank it, plenty of times they dodge attacks entirely which then go on to cause various amounts of collateral damage, but nowhere near enough. Where does all the energy go?

Either there's less energy in those blasts than they claim there is, or 99% of the energy just up and vanishes on a miss.

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I just spoke about that or are you purposefully ignoring what I'm saying?

This is basically DB canon and how they explain it. It may be far-fetched but so is the existence of Ki in the first place or just the Marvel universe in general. When you're reading a fantastical story, you generally have a pretty durable suspension of disbelief and try to not extrapolate from reality or make too much sense out of it.

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[Gmerguy]

I have always operated under the assumption that after you get to causal mountain/island breaking levels (aka frieza levels) you start hitting diminishing returns on output. Basically its a throughput problem, if you have to funnel power through a 5 inch pipe in order to use it you will hit a point where you maxed out how much can go through at once, the size of your reserve doesnt matter at that point because that not whats holding you back the size of the pipe is. In effect there are two parts to a persons power, their full reserve and the active power they are tapping/using with both connected by a choke point thats really hard to improve/change.
Its explains why it still takes time to charge up planet killers no matter how powerful you get, it still needs to go through that pipe, and why physical boosts seems to peak eventually as well. At that point power is less about how much damage you can do and how much you can take as well as how efficiently you can use the power you tap into. It becomes a bit of a chess/endurance match

As for the whole planet busting thing... isnt that kind of a moot point? While they might not be able to blow a planet up any main fighter by the saiyan saga would be able to kill a planet if the wanted to. All it would take is a big enough hit in the right spots and/or causing a natural disaster. Heck they could even pull an ultron and do a colony drop if they wanted to. The point is while the blowing up planet thing is excessive its excess on top of excess.

As for why people dont explode/kill planets more often? Well in the series most of the time its counter to their goals, save earth get dragonballs/androids/having fun/personal revenge, or the planet itself is the goal. Kinda hard to sell/own a planet that doesnt exist any more, so economic and probably political incentives exists to disincline planet popping.

 

[Ricky]

Anyone know why the OP is temp banned?

 

[Terran Imperium]

Anyone know why the OP is temp banned?

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For making an Attack Helicopter-joke. Let's try to avoid the subject here. Dragon Ball power levels are already heating up the thread enough, no need to throw in more.

 

[Skelethin]

But they don't always tank it, plenty of times they dodge attacks entirely which then go on to cause various amounts of collateral damage, but nowhere near enough. Where does all the energy go?

Either there's less energy in those blasts than they claim there is, or 99% of the energy just up and vanishes on a miss.

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Something that a lot of people seem to miss when it comes to Ki is that, since its such a personal energy, intention matters.

I'll explain.

When Freeza is throwing out that big blast to destroy planet Vegeta, that was his explicit intention in creating that blast and firing it off. When hes throwing around similar type blasts in his true form in the fight on Namek against Goku, he doesn't go shatter the planet crust on any attack that was specifically intended to do so.

Which means that the blasts have the intention in destroying people. Not people and mountains and planets. Just people. And the leftover blast effects are a spill over, not the full power of the attack.


But to get more on a helpful topic, my reason for not wanting Vegeta and all the other DBZ characters to show up is I am very much enjoying the character not knowing what is going on, despite being a SI. Even if some of the elements are brought in - scattered Saiyans that still have the same reputation as DBZ Saiyans because they are Saiyans and have roughly the same history, Freeza-clan members floating around(I still want a real name for this species dammit) that are cold hearted tyrants because that is what the history of that race is, not because Freeza or King Cold are there. Keep the general history/backstory of the different species, but not the same characters.

Part of this is because I want to see the SI deal with being wrong about galactic history, because he honestly doesn't know it any better than he does Marvel.

 

[Terran Imperium]

I still want a real name for this species dammit

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Arcosians is their unofficial name.

 

[Skelethin]

Arcosians is their unofficial name.

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Considering that, between the multiple games that have Freeza-clan as the race name, and the fact that Arcosians is a name that only shows up in the Funimation dub...

I don't consider Arcosian a valid name for them. Frost demons makes more sense to me since they are all named after references to being cold, but Xenoverse and Dragon Ball Online had a perfect opportunity to grant the race a proper name but still refused to do so leaves me as not having a real name for them.

 

[ZFighter18]

A good portion of what people seem to forget about Ki in DBZ and level of destruction is that unlike most energy blasts or attacks shown in other universes, the purpose of the attack is defined by the user, not the amount of power.

If you're just wilding out and raising your power level without any attempt at reining it in or controlling it when you get strong enough, you risk killing people because you're literally too stronk.

If you're launching a ki blast, the purpose behind it matters. Frieza wanted to utterly wipe out the Saiyan planet with no chance of the thing surviving. His Supernova worked toward that purpose.

On Namek, as he was currently on the planet, he wanted to limit the range of destruction to prevent himself from being caught up in it as he was already weakened and tired. The alien emperor even said so himself in a literal quote that he tried to lower the output but must have made it too low.

Trying to nerf DBZ in a fusion by saying "oh, planet bursting's not a thing" inherently ignores the purpose of Ki as a semi-mystical internal energy force.

The proper mindset and motivation are inherent for both cultivating and using ki. Two parts of Ki are literally just internal focus and mental energy. It gets even more important when an actual attack is used. Attacks tend to temporarily increase the users power level quite a bit before using them. This example is shown when Raditz saw Son Goku's power level increase before using a Kamehameha Wave and the same for Piccolo's Special Beam.

Why can ki make clothes instead of just blowing up the ground? Purpose.

Why can ki heal others? Purpose.

Why can ki be transferred? Purpose.

Why can ki be used to create duplicates?

Why can ki be turned into fire or electricity?

Why can ki make constructs?

Purpose. Purpose. PURPOSE.

Ignoring all of this while trying to make a Naruto crossover is like ignoring the fact that you don't have to be a baby to become a Jinchuriki but sticking with the idea because "it makes more sense."


Goku's first Kamehameha, considering he had a power level of 12 and had no skill in external Ki control or generation, barely managed to wreck a very small compact car.

Goku's first Super Kamehameha destroyed a mountain range in Dragon Ball.

Master Roshi with his Big Kahuna Mode and Max Power Kamehameha destroyed the moon.

Piccolo managed to do the same to the moon while being just a hair under 3 times stronger than Master Roshi's at the time (base) power level of 139.

King Vegeta destroyed 3 planets with one blast with a power level of 10k.

Spoiler: Vegeta

Vegeta casually destroyed Arlia with a PL of 18k.

Destroying large objects with the purpose of doing so has always been far easier than destroying actual fighters who have their own energy protecting them.