I think the integrate option just razes it to the ground after looting and capture of the people.
From Stone to the Stars
- Thread starter Redium
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
- Location
- United States
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but disperse all of Arrow Lake's population among the wider People. (+ Luxuries, + Crafts)
[X] [North] Upgrade the Cave of Stars into a full fledged settlement. (+ Staples, + Luxuries)
[X] [War] No.
[X] [North] Upgrade the Cave of Stars into a full fledged settlement. (+ Staples, + Luxuries)
[X] [War] No.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] [North] Found their own settlement at River-Bend, west of the Fingers. (++ Staples, + Luxuries, - Crafts, - Materials)
[X] [Lake] Integrate Arrow Lake into the People; have them address the lack of Materials. (+ Materials, + Craftworks)
[X] [War] No.
Why this sudden reversal of viewpoints from me, the adherent of Tall? Because we have a mysticism hero now. The benefits of having such a hero to oversee the building of the horn rider's new temple and the subsequent RA overcap (which is inevitable if we want the horned riders to ever have a temple) seem worth the increased action expense to me, especially since our next planned settlement (the one where we displace the mountain clans) is too far south for caribou so we can't give the horn riders their temple there. Thus, if we don't settle either river-bend, wide river, or the summer camp, them getting a temple will be very far in the future. Of those options, river-bend is the best combination of strategically and agriculturally viable IMO.
Unless, of course, we could just do what we did with the cave itself and make them a freestanding temple. If that's the case I'll flip back to my original no settlment stance, with cave of stars as a secondary.
[X] [Lake] Integrate Arrow Lake into the People; have them address the lack of Materials. (+ Materials, + Craftworks)
[X] [War] No.
Why this sudden reversal of viewpoints from me, the adherent of Tall? Because we have a mysticism hero now. The benefits of having such a hero to oversee the building of the horn rider's new temple and the subsequent RA overcap (which is inevitable if we want the horned riders to ever have a temple) seem worth the increased action expense to me, especially since our next planned settlement (the one where we displace the mountain clans) is too far south for caribou so we can't give the horn riders their temple there. Thus, if we don't settle either river-bend, wide river, or the summer camp, them getting a temple will be very far in the future. Of those options, river-bend is the best combination of strategically and agriculturally viable IMO.
Unless, of course, we could just do what we did with the cave itself and make them a freestanding temple. If that's the case I'll flip back to my original no settlment stance, with cave of stars as a secondary.
- Location
- USA
Here's the thing, I don't think we need to give them a Temple right away, as even if we could right now we cannot afford any of the costs needed to incur a Temple. While absorbing the Northlands and the Arrow Lake tribesmen will likely help with the deficits we are going to incur, considering how much it cost us in terms of resources the previous turn just to build the one Temple at the Fingers, where we still maintained our materials deficit despite the kilns, lowered our surplus in craftsman and staples, and dropped ourselves into a luxury deficit, I don't think in the near term we can afford to build a new Temple.
Following on that point, just because a group does not have a Temple does not mean they will not be able to function. Our Holy Orders predated Temples and survived just fine without them, something the Horned Riders likely were able to do up north where at most they might've had holy sites or shrines. Unless @Redium has any further insights to add, I think all we might need to do, and something that hopefully will be done, is construct a shrine for the Horned Riders. Temples are hugely expensive structures. While it may not help the Horned Riders in not having a Temple to call their own, I don't think it would be too much of an impediment to have them wait, especially as our current precarious economic situation has yet to be solved.
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Maintain their current summer camp as a year-round settlement. (+ Staples, ++ Luxuries, - Materials)
[X] [War] No.
[X] [North] Maintain their current summer camp as a year-round settlement. (+ Staples, ++ Luxuries, - Materials)
[X] [War] No.
By the way guys, I'm currently writing a negaverse omake, and since I'm new on sufficient velocity, i would like to ask if some of you guys wouldn't mind being added to a conversation so that you could rp your nega-self reacting to it, since i don't really know you guys well enough to write a good nega-you. I would appreciate it.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Fair. In that case' I'll go back to dying on my personal hill.
[X] [North] Disperse among all of the People's settlements. (+ Martial, + Staples)
[X] [Lake] Integrate Arrow Lake into the People; have them address the lack of Materials. (+ Materials, + Craftworks)
[X] [War] No.
I do wonder what will get tagged as mysticism actions though, other than temples. Maybe Help Holy Orders? Or perhaps Jeree will complete our Gods And Deities research, and we shall have fun new actions to panic about.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's the settlement in the center of the Tribe of the West. It is thus, to make an understatement, a fairly long term goal.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Nonsense. It is necessary for us to undertake care of such a powerful site of natural magics
- Location
- nz
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Upgrade the Cave of Stars into a full fledged settlement. (+ Staples, + Luxuries)
[X] [War] No.
[X] [North] Upgrade the Cave of Stars into a full fledged settlement. (+ Staples, + Luxuries)
[X] [War] No.
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You are correct! You have 5 Religious Authority and are over your RA cap!
Since you're already redlining, would it be so bad to red line a little harder?
Jeree is a straight Martial/Mysticism hero; he's both.
The Horned Riders will not go extinct without a temple, but there will likely be problems if they don't get one. They are the odd Holy Order out; you didn't birth them, they're adopted from the North. What does that say if they are the Holy Order that doesn't get a temple? Wouldn't that be a bit alienating for the descendants of the Northlanders that their unique tradition is ignored?
You will get the Horned Riders as a Holy Order.
You could transplate the Horned Riders over the Star Shaman, but that would displace the unique burgeoning tradition that the Star Shaman are building. Do you want to destroy the future of what the Star Shamans might create to grantee the Horned Riders are accepted as equals?
You will have narrative events to drop RA. You don't really have enough sophistication to reliably drop RA due to turn actions.
Stars are important across the board. Seasons were always extremely important to ancient people and the way they tracked those was by looking at the heavens. You got unique celestial phenomena not only in the stars, but also the sun, the moon, the white hoop, and the aurora. There's plenty reason the People are invested in the sky.
Probably not. I have a lot in mind for that. It's a derivation of decisions you've already made plus some unique ideas I've added.
In this particular case, there would be no penalty to founding additional settlements.
They would be full tribesmen, but they would be Debtors as well. The People don't really have the concept of citizenship yet. If you live with the People year round, you're one of them.
Infrastructure is generally: walls, temples, charcoal kilns, and hills. Sugar shacks have been downgraded to resource buildings; they're analogues to a farm or fishing fleet.
Yes, but not necessarily a good one. If you settle the Northlanders around the Cave of Stars and then fail to build them a temple for the Horned Riders, they might completely displace the Star Shaman.
They do not breathe fire; they hurl fireballs.
No. The Maintain options keep Arrow Lake's settlement, the Integrate ones destroy it. The vote is about what happens with the population. If they're integrated, they're moved and mixed into the People. If the settlement is maintained, they stay where they are but with an infusion of shaman, warriors, and Pareem from the People.
You're already redlining RA. I was mistaken that you were not before.
Both. There's going to be low-level, murderhobo type adventurers who won't pop up too much, but there's also going to be well connected, rich second sons launching campaigns to bring glory to themselves and conquer land. The later is going to be fairly rare, however; at least until you get to a certain tech level.
'Court' is generally held by Pareem. They act as arbiter in order to settle any disputes that arise between people. The Pareem will either arbitrate themselves if both the plaintiff and defendant are their clients, or advocated on their behalf if the plaintiff or defendant is another Pareem's client. If two Pareem can't decide on a settlement (or a client wants to appeal their Pareem's decision) it's resolved with a local council of Pareem. Three, Six, or Eighteen people are usually selected for this council.
Debtors are collectively overseen by a council.
Consequence punishment is basically the realization that you punish people for the effect their actions had, not what they necessarily did.
Niagara falls would be ~700 kilometers from the Fingers and ~450 kilometers from Hill Guard.
I wanted to get back to this point because Jeree would weigh in on it.
Currently, Arrow Lake is a leisurely two day travel from the Fingers, potentially one if you were moving fast and willing to push it. It doesn't extend your defensive envelope that much if you were to capture it. Jeree also feels a lot more comfortable defending Arrow Lake than he would the Fingers. It wouldn't have as much room to maneuver and it's too far south for the Horned Riders to be really effective, but it also cuts off a lot of opportunities to maneuver. It's much, much easier to force confrontation around the lake than the Fingers and a forced, high intensity confrontation greatly favours the People over Arrow Lake.
Since South Reach was easily supporting Arrow Lake, they would just as easily be able to assault the Fingers from their current holdings. Arrow Lake can be an important staging base, but it's not at all necessary for them to prosecute war.
Taking Arrow Lake would also provide a large amount of additional support to the Fingers. They would have one flank locked down and have a reliable, close ally to depend on. Having allies that are one day away versus one month would make the Fingers hugely more secure.
Luule would also like to weigh in: leaving Arrow Lake more-or-less intact, but supplanting their leadership, warriors, and shaman, would allow the People access to a lot more resources. Arrow Lake is rich in clay, granite, lapis luzili, limestone, (minerals in general,) wood, fish, farms (with some crops you haven't domesticated large scale) and many other necessities. Maintaining Arrow Lake in full (only replacing warriors, shaman, Pareem) would give you ~3 times the Luxuries of the Luxury Integration option and ~2 times the Materials of the Materials integration option. The more you integrate them, the less resources you would get since it's inefficient to move people around and throw away old infrastructure.
The downside to this, of course is twofold: first, it requires additional infrastructure. A temple, hill, charcoal kiln, trails and Fire Relay would have to be built to accommodate the settlement and that's a lot to ask; 9 actions to do it all. Second, there's the risk of Arrow Lake trying to rise up within the next few turns. It isn't an insurmountable risk; Luule notes that the People were fantastic at converting the Northlands and Pearl Divers. Your religion is top notch, you have the Law, and you have experience from deflecting the Peace Builders' attempts to convert your culture.
Jeree notes that you've utterly savaged Arrow Lake. Roughly 3/4 men between the ages of 15 and 59 are dead, nearly 1/8 women are dead; virtually everyone who took the field against you perished. You would also be inserting your own warriors directly into the settlement and allowing them to have control. A rebellion would be difficult to pull off.
Neither Luule or Jeree are the exact right person to instantly flip Arrow Lake (that would be a Diplo hero), but they have everything else; Martial, Admin, and Mysticism.
Mmm...so something will burn.
Could also merge maybe? The Frost Scarred and Ember Eyes shared one after sll.
Jeree was Star Shaman who became Horned Rider after failing the cave test.
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Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Upgrade the Cave of Stars into a full fledged settlement. (+ Staples, + Luxuries)
[X] [War] No.
I am convinced to change my vote. I think Arrow Lake is important for us to hold. At the very least, we need to deny the location to the enemy.
[X] [North] Upgrade the Cave of Stars into a full fledged settlement. (+ Staples, + Luxuries)
[X] [War] No.
I am convinced to change my vote. I think Arrow Lake is important for us to hold. At the very least, we need to deny the location to the enemy.
Oh wait, I think I know how they did this.
They made a Roman Candle, a tube of hollow wood packed with an incendiary charge of kiln-prepared ball of wood tar/animal fat, charcoal, and lime powder.
Then just set off the reaction by adding some water and it'd launch out of the tube linearly. Not that damaging, but terrifying morale wise.
Also heh, Steak.
Uh dude. Redline RA will get worse. And they can't resettle the spot because its too close to the Fingers regardless. Building a settlement takes FAR too long
- Pronouns
- He/Him
With us redlining again, I have one more question before I flip back to putting the settlement at river bend; Is it possible for us to build a free-standing temple for them without a natural wonder attached?
If not, then even if we don't build them a temple at river-bend NOW, then we still have the OPTION. If we don't put it there, it goes waaayyy down the queue.
If not, then even if we don't build them a temple at river-bend NOW, then we still have the OPTION. If we don't put it there, it goes waaayyy down the queue.
We have an admin hero and a mystic hero. The only way it could have been better timed was if we had a diplo hero too.
Shadows
Sacred Priestess of the Benevolent Dice Gods
- Location
- USS Civilian, DDG-214
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [War] Yes.
This is the only one I can speak to until I see the map, but supplanting the Star Shaman... eh. Dun like it.
[X] [War] Yes.
This is the only one I can speak to until I see the map, but supplanting the Star Shaman... eh. Dun like it.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Found their own settlement at River-Bend, west of the Fingers. (++ Staples, + Luxuries, - Crafts, - Materials)
[X] [War] No.
Is this better?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Alright, changed my mind based on the last post. We can't get rid of the Star Shaman, they'll be very important in our future.
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Merge into Arrow Lake's settlement. (+ Staples, + Martial, + Luxuries)
[X] [Lake] Maintain the settlement, but mix in a noticeable number of the People, primarily shaman and warriors. (++++ Luxuries, ++ Crafts, + Materials, - Martial, - Magic)
[X] [North] Merge into Arrow Lake's settlement. (+ Staples, + Martial, + Luxuries)
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You made it even worse. Now we have a 2 temple, 2 hill, 2 kiln deficit when we are already overmaxed on RA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This seems like a great way to keep a lot of people really offended for a very long time. I can't imagine the star shamans enjoying sharing, and the horn riders would still be pissed that they are the only ones without their own custom temple.
Much better to just leave the horned riders without a temple for a while if we go this route.
It's arrow lake that will cause our RA to be a problem, since 1) it needs a temple 2)we won't be able to house the horn riders in that temple (or a temple in the proposed flood plain settlement) because they are too far south for current caribou.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
*shrug*
A lot of ancient kings served functions as priests. The Pharaoh was a priest of Amun Ra, and the Sumerians fulfilled priestly duties to appease their vicious and chaotic gods (and were murdered when the rivers flooded anyway). Is that necessarily a bad thing?