Uh...what are you talking about? On all counts really.
The Anti-Healing is explicitly stated as a magical curse, not "conceptual" alteration. The only conceptual bullshit is the one that makes it undodgeable.

1. Cu explicitly didn't trigger anti-healing the first time he stabbed Shirou. He did the second time, but by then Arturia knew Shirou had Avalon inside him, and that healed him. Avalon was able to beat GB's conceptual healing.

Which is a case of it being defeated by another ability.
Additionally, where is it stated that Lancer can turn it on or off? Or that he didn't use it? I do not recall this.

2. I'm not certain Cu actually triggered the anti-healing on Saber the first time around. It's very odd it never came up, and Saber would have noticed if she was healing much more slowly; I'd have to check.
[/quote]

Feel free.
 
The Anti-Healing is explicitly stated as a magical curse, not "conceptual" alteration. The only conceptual bullshit is the one that makes it undodgeable.

Got a quote for that?

Also, curses can be conceptual fuckery too; just look at All The Evils Of The World. Or Jack The Ripper's NP, the only that targets based on gender, time of day, and presence of mist, and recurs curse resistance to oppose.

Which is a case of it being defeated by another ability.

Yes...? I'm not sure what your point is, we've never seen anything beat Avalon, and only Gae Bolg's anti-healing was tested against Avalon.

Additionally, where is it stated that Lancer can turn it on or off? Or that he didn't use it? I do not recall this.

Sure, back when Lancer stabs Shirou in the back at the church near the end of Fate route, and then he talks to Saber. He says that this timed he turned on the anti-healing aspects, unlike the first time Lancer stabbed Shirou at the school at the beginning of all routes. If Lancer had turned it on back at the school, Rin would not have been able to build Shirou a new heart.
 
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Got a quote for that?

Also, curses can be conceptual fuckery too; just look at All The Evils Of The World. Or Jack The Ripper's NP, the only that targets based on gender, time of day, and presence of mist, and recurs curse resistance to oppose.

I found the quote you were referencing earlier. Interestingly enough, its the exact same line where he labels the anti-healing a magical curse.

And again, conceptual fuckery is not a no limits fallacy that you can apply to anything without scrutiny. If this were Diarmuid, then yes, Gae Buidhe's anti-healing effect is EXPLICITLY conceptually hard to deal with because of the stated mechanics behind it. Gae Bolg literally just makes wounds linger and not heal.

Yes...? I'm not sure what your point is, we've never seen anything beat Avalon, and only Gae Bolg's anti-healing was tested against Avalon.

Shirou gets put out of commission all the time. The regeneration factor is not particularly impressive, unlike the Shield aspect. By that logic, we've never seen Gae Bolgs anti-healing put to the test against regeneration as strong as Flandre's seems to be (based on what I've been reading of the character) so it wouldn't beat it, and I don't think there's a very strong case for that.

Sure, back when Lancer stabs Shirou in the back at the church near the end of Fate route, and then he talks to Saber. He says that this timed he turned on the anti-healing aspects, unlike the first time Lancer stabbed Shirou at the school at the beginning of all routes. If Lancer had turned it on back at the school, Rin would not have been able to build Shirou a new heart.

Having found the actual quote myself, it's significantly more vague that that.
 
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[X] Stand and keep fighting.

If it's a curse, Rule Breaker should take care of it, if Medea wants to expose herself.
 
A note for everyone: Lancer has Battle Continuation A, and even though he's wounded he is just as effective as before. More or less. I'm not convinced we can actually kill him dead here, especially if we abandon all restraint and try to take his blood.re Lancer hit us with Gae Bolg....now we gotta deal with the aftermath.
I actually think we're in a pretty good position to do it, since his spear is currently stuck in Flandre's chest, so he can't stab her in the head or anything and she's in close with her weapon planted in his guts. All she has to do is grab his weapon with one hand and close in. The advantage being drinking his blood would probably help deal with the damage he just dealt.

Of course, if we don't go berserk, we can take the safe option of simply turning on Lavaetinn's flameblade feature and cutting it out of him upwards, bisecting his head and almost certainly overpowering his Battle Continuation. So, I'll vote for Stand and Fight.

And again, conceptual fuckery is not a no limits fallacy that you can apply to anything without scrutiny.
Well... It depends on the conceptual power really. But it's worth noting that even Mystic Eyes of Death Perception one of the most broken conceptual Nasu-verse powers failed to permanently kill Arcuied, a powerful vampire, which sets precedent for Flandre possibly being able to survive, though it doesn't guarantee it.

[X]Stand and Keep Fighting.
 
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I found the quote you were referencing earlier. Interestingly enough, its the exact same line where he labels the anti-healing a magical curse.

If you really wanna belabor that line, he describes the reversal of cause and effect as a curse too. And I'll quote to prove it.

Even you should know the curse of this lance. This is the 'lance of cause and effect', that reverses the cause and the effect. The one cursed by this thing cannot change their fate unless they have great luck.

"To put it simply, the wound made by Gae Bolg cannot be healed. The one cursed cannot heal and bears this wound until they die. As long as this lance exists.

See the first line; he rolls the reversal of cause and effect under the heading of curse. And since you've apparently reread this scene I have no clue why you're trying to make this distinction between curses and conceptual that demonstrably does not exist in canon.

And again, conceptual fuckery is not a no limits fallacy that you can apply to anything without scrutiny. If this were Diarmuid, then yes, Gae Buidhe's anti-healing effect is EXPLICITLY conceptually hard to deal with because of the stated mechanics behind it. Gae Bolg literally just makes wounds linger and not heal.

First I have no idea what point you're trying to make about conceptual fuckery being a no limits fallacy. The anti-healing is pretty firmly at the discretion of the GM, there's justification for multiple interpretations.

Second, I am not sure why you're making a distinction between Gae Buidhe being a conceptual curse but Gae Bolg isn't? Lancer is pretty explicit in saying the wounds cannot be healed. Avalon is just very good in keeping its bearer alive, as long as it has Saber prana. Shirou gets the shit kicked out of him a ton of times in Fate route, to the point he oughta be dead multiple times over, and bounces back in less than a day, as long as Saber is nursing him.

Shirou gets put out of commission all the time. The regeneration factor is not particularly impressive, unlike the Shield aspect.

Beating an anti-healing NP actually is fairly impressive.

Having found the actual quote myself, it's significantly more vague that that.

Seems clear to me; Lancer has an anti-healing effect, he did not trigger it the first time, he did trigger it this time, and he uses this to goad Saber into fighting him.
 
If you really wanna belabor that line, he describes the reversal of cause and effect as a curse too. And I'll quote to prove it.



See the first line; he rolls the reversal of cause and effect under the heading of curse. And since you've apparently reread this scene I have no clue why you're trying to make this distinction between curses and conceptual that demonstrably does not exist in canon.

Seems clear to me; Lancer has an anti-healing effect, he did not trigger it the first time, he did trigger it this time, and he uses this to goad Saber into fighting him.

The translation i read reads as pierced, not cursed.

First I have no idea what point you're trying to make about conceptual fuckery being a no limits fallacy. The anti-healing is pretty firmly at the discretion of the GM, there's justification for multiple interpretations.

All i said was that your statement about noble phantoms being "conceptual bullshit" was meaningless. You appeared to be attempting to use that as some kind of signifier that the effects were immutable, something i found unsupportable.

Second, I am not sure why you're making a distinction between Gae Buidhe being a conceptual curse but Gae Bolg isn't? Lancer is pretty explicit in saying the wounds cannot be healed. Avalon is just very good in keeping its bearer alive, as long as it has Saber prana. Shirou gets the shit kicked out of him a ton of times in Fate route, to the point he oughta be dead multiple times over, and bounces back in less than a day, as long as Saber is nursing him.

Gae Buidhe is an example of an anti healing effect that results from manipulating a concept. It sets your default state of being to the wounded state, meaning its unhealable because the universe doesnt recognize you as being wounded.

Gae Bolg has been demonstrably defeated by people like Saber and Shirou through various means. Yes, Avalons healing factor helped, but it is also a visibly weaker effect than someone with Alucard level regen.

That said, i do NOT believe that Gae Bolg should have no effect, simply that, again, conceptual bullshit is a meaningless term because not all conceptual effects are the same.
Beating an anti-healing NP actually is fairly impressive.
Based on what?
 
Depending on how that one works may mean it won't heal even if all the afflicted flesh is cut out. It depends, this isn't a situation that came up in canon. Although considering Saber never tried doing this to herself despite her healing powers, for Gae Bolg or Gae Buidhe inflicted wounds, I'd be more inclined towards not work.
Might be a limitation on Servant regeneration:
Heaven's Feel - Hero's Death said:
It is fatal for a human body to be cut at the joint, where the main arteries lie.
If the arteries are severed, death from severe bleeding will quickly follow.
But that is only in normal combat.
You cannot expect a Servant, a heroic spirit, to die from excessive bleeding.

As their lifeforce is magical energy, cutting their arteries does not have much effect.
The loss of a limb is another story, but cutting off a Servant's limb is a difficult task.
Doing so will likely cost you your own head in the process.
'Surface' injuries aren't too dangerous, but something like cutting a limb off is, which implies that there are noticeable limitations on how much a Servant can regenerate. Also, Saber doesn't have particularly good healing AFAIK (apart from Avalon) - in her initial fight with Lancer in F/Z, she relies on Irisviel to heal her injuries, and her first request to Shirou is to heal the damage from Gae Bolg after she 'heals' the outside. Cutting off an arm and regrowing it to get around the severed tendon is probably beyond her.

I actually think we're in a pretty good position to do it, since his spear is currently stuck in Flandre's chest, so he can't stab her in the head or anything and she's in close with her weapon planted in his guts.
Laevateinn is actually out of Lancer:
...you look to the side as he coughs up blood and your gift drags out of his chest, tearing open the already serious wound.
 
'Surface' injuries aren't too dangerous, but something like cutting a limb off is, which implies that there are noticeable limitations on how much a Servant can regenerate. Also, Saber doesn't have particularly good healing AFAIK (apart from Avalon) - in her initial fight with Lancer in F/Z, she relies on Irisviel to heal her injuries, and her first request to Shirou is to heal the damage from Gae Bolg after she 'heals' the outside. Cutting off an arm and regrowing it to get around the severed tendon is probably beyond her.
Saber never actually fought with Avalon available except for Saber vs Gilgamesh in Fate. She was running with basic Servant regen.

With Avalon she's close to unstoppable save for mana
 
For the record, Saber is actually good at healing and it's canon. Comes up in early Fate route that healing is her special power. The initial theory for why Shirou keeps coming back from things that ought to kill him is that Saber's prana is so powerful that it's flowing up the Master/Servant connection and healing Shirou.
 
For the record, Saber is actually good at healing and it's canon. Comes up in early Fate route that healing is her special power.
That would be Rin's claim here?
Rin said:
"Then the cause must be the Servant.
Your Servant must be really powerful, or something went wrong during the summoning. …Well, I think it's both, but I think some kind of line formed between you two."
...
"It looks like Saber has natural healing powers, so some of that may be flowing into you.
Normally, the magus's power flows into the familiar, but in your case, the familiar's power is flowing into you and helping you out."
That doesn't seem to be actual evidence of Saber being particularly good at healing - it's a conjecture by Rin to explain why Shirou recovered from Berserker so quickly. As far as Saber herself:
Heaven's Feel said:
"That is true as long as I am not wounded or my armor does not become damaged. But against heroic spirits of such rank, that is not likely.
To put it in your terms, I used about 50 units against Lancer, and about 200 units against Berserker."

She was pierced by Lancer, and her stomach was slashed by Berserker.
It makes sense for her to have used a lot of magical energy to heal those wounds.
It makes sense, but…

"I did not use that much magical energy to heal myself. I used it more to restore the armor that was destroyed. Most of my magical energy is fixed on protecting me."

…That's how it is, according to her.

"So your armor is part of your body, right? So maintaining your body and your armor is the same thing. You have your armor off right now to preserve magical energy, right?"
She doesn't really confirm anything, only that the majority of her energy is spent on restoring armor rather than healing. We do know that she didn't heal the injury she sustained from Lancer, not properly - she pretty much just put a Band-Aid on it:
Promised Sign said:
...
The girl catches her breath.
The blood that was running so much has stopped, and even her stabbed wound is healing.
...
"…The wound is… gone…?"
Even though it missed her heart, that lance stabbed her in the chest. But she's unscathed.
…I've heard of healing magics, but I didn't see her using anything like that.
So that must mean she automatically heals even when she is wounded.
...
"Wait, you're asking me? I'm sorry, but I don't know any such difficult magic. Besides, it's already healed."
Saber frowns a bit.
…I think I said something really wrong there.

"…Then I shall face them as I am now. The regeneration only healed the outside, but one more fight should not be a problem."
"…? One more what…?"
The problem is that most if not all Servants appear to have some degree of self-healing - Berserker, Caster, Saber, and Archer, at least, are all confirmed by dialogue, feats, or narration, which leaves possibly Rider, Lancer, and the Assassins - although Rider presumably has self-healing as well, although it's possible Zouken healed her in HF. Lancer has his runes even if he didn't have some kind of intrinsic healing, but I'm not sure we actually see him recover from an injured state - he dies off-screen in Fate, immediately in HF, and (eventually) of his injury in UBW, and I'm not sure we even see him injured at any other points.

It is possible she's getting some kind of invisible boost to healing from the Dragon Reactor, and I've seen an unsourced claim that Prana Burst lets her accelerate her healing, but I couldn't find anything that explicitly confirmed that Saber's ability to heal herself is any better than another Servant's.
 
One annoying thing about FSN debates is that a lot of 'facts' are actually claims are made by characters who are in no position to know if they're entirely accurate.
 
Probably the Dragon Reactor.

What, Saber's personal healing without Avalon? Maybe.

That would be Rin's claim here?

Maybe? I could have sworn I recalled Saber herself saying it, but I could have misattributed it.

One annoying thing about FSN debates is that a lot of 'facts' are actually claims are made by characters who are in no position to know if they're entirely accurate.

You're not wrong, although I generally take them at their word until given evidence to the contrary or compelling motive to be lying, or we've pretty much got nothing.
 
Versus Lancer II
[X] Stand and keep fighting.


"Yeah. I'm sorry about that, but …." He yanks his spear out of your chest, an action you feel shouldn't be possible for some reason, and prepares for another thrust. You shut down your heart, lungs, and every other organ that hurts with the pain of iron needles. It's not good for you, but you can do it for a little while. Until you beat him. "Just hold still, and it'll all be over soon." His spear lances out, smoothly and so slowly, and your head lolls to the right so the blade simply slashes across your cheek. Your left hand darts up, as quickly as you can, to grasp his weapon, and your left wing coils around it as well, and Lancer stares in shock before his expression turns to one of disgust. He yanks back on his spear, tearing it out of your grip, but you surge forward anyway, Laevateinn swinging wildly at him. He leaps back to get out of your range, then advances cautiously against your charge, spear spinning and twirling to parry your relentless attacks. The blade licks out between blocks, further cutting open your chest and slashing against your cheek again, but you ignore the pointless wounds. Then the butt of the spear slams into your throat, caving in your throat and cutting off your air supply. You slow to a halt; you aren't using air right now, but if you forget to repair the damage now, it'll go even worse for you when you go back to normal.

He skips back again, and his spear points down, erupting with energy once again, and you do something normally unthinkable: you hurl Laevateinn at him. Forced to abort his attack to keep the wand from tearing open his throat, you're free to close in, but he twists lithely and a lashing kick shatters your rib cage. He goes on the offensive, spear lashing out to cut open your arms and legs, plunging into your stomach and chest until you dive away from him to regain your gift. You drift around him as he turns to watch you. Your most recent injuries mend somewhat, and you fade from visibility before darting back and then up. Lancer freezes, eyes closing as he tries to determine where you are by hearing, and you dive onto his back, left claw sinking into the flesh around his collarbone as Laevateinn arcs for his chest. Lancer doesn't seem to react until flames erupt around the two of you. You manage a moderate strike with your gift as your flesh sizzles, and a weak second hit, and you snap his collarbone as your left hand closes reflexively, but you have to throw yourself away from him, away from the fire as your eyes pop and the flames lick inside your ravaged torso. You roll around frantically on the soggy ground, moaning piteously, and your chest seizes up as the thorns make themselves known once more. You roll over, looking for Lancer; maybe you won't be able to do anything, but you want to see him as he finishes you. He isn't looking at you, though; his spear is pointing toward you, but his attention is focused in another direction, and you flop painfully until you see what he's looking at. Two figures, one much taller than the other, and both wearing red. It takes a moment for your memory to provide names - Tohsaka Rin and her Servant, Archer - and you wonder what they're doing here. They wouldn't help you; Saber and her Master might, but not these two, and maybe they finish some discussion you can't hear, but Lancer turns back around and walks carefully toward you.

His spear blurs to intercept a pair of icy javelins that speed toward him and he frowns past you. It's too much effort to move, and your chest hurts too much, anyway. You see a huge area of the park burst into flame, and Lancer flinches and covers his face but doesn't retreat. Then a series of green blurs sweep through the flames, and the fire explodes into a raging conflagration. A short, heavy figure lands in front of you, each arm glowing with red, yellow, and green lines. Lancer, looking only slightly singed, hurtles forward, but his spear glances off the armored figure in front of you, and a rocky spear leaps out of the ground to impale him, taking him far away before the angled pillar explodes, sending shards of rock and globs of liquid stone streaming over the park. Your rescuer turns toward you and crouches as much as it is able to; as huge, three-fingered gloves gently lift you from the ground, you finally realize that it's Ershin, but before you can thank it, your body finally gives out and you lose consciousness.


You half-wake on a soft table, or a hard bed, and your head rolls to the right. Your arms and legs are restrained, tightly but gently, and except for the pain in your chest, you aren't uncomfortable. Everything seems quite fuzzy, in fact … but you can see Patchouli and your sister looking at something on a nearby desk. Oddly, Patchouli seems to be more concerned; usually she doesn't care much for you. Whatever is causing the fuzziness is affecting your hearing, too, because you can't tell what they're talking about. But they see you stirring and come over. Remilia smiles gently and strokes your cheek.

"Don't worry, Flandre. I know it hurts, but we're working on something right now. Why don't you go back to sleep?" You nod and smile back. Whatever that spear did, it must have used some powerful magic to harm you so much.

"Okay, Remilia. I'll be good." You yawn deeply, but before your eyes close you see Patchouli glaring fiercely at your sister. But then you return to the comforting peace of sleep.


Your eyes blink away the dream and you sit up on the sleeping mat, shedding blankets as you wake fully. You start to take a deep breath, but your chest hitches and you clasp your hands tightly. Right, it was just a dream …. But your heart is beating, your lungs let you breathe, everything seems to work, but the pain is still there. You take another deep breath, and this one is uninterrupted now that you know the pain is still there. You stretch, wondering how long it's been - your skin isn't tender, but it's not quite night yet. Your dress … you can't find your dress, the one that Lancer ruined, but there's a white sundress folded next to you. You think about your fight with the spear-wielding Servant.

You underestimated him. Caster wasn't able to tell you much about him, but you should have been warier. Berserker fights like you, but he fights more cleverly, and he's much quicker than you with his weapon. And he's a mage, and his spear isn't just a heartseeker …. Yes, you underestimated him, but you also didn't use any of your other tricks. Next time - if there is a next time - you'll be prepared. You take out Laevateinn and study it, then hug it too you. In spite of yourself, a smile stretches across your face. He beat you, and you deserved it, but it was a good fight. And if his spear does disappear when he dies … well, you'll have to hope he's still alive. Considering what it did, Remilia should definitely find it interesting. You put your gift away and glance at the dress. Maybe you should see Caster and Deis?


What do you do?

[ ] Stay in bed and read your books.

[ ] Go see Caster and Deis.
- [ ] Talk about Lancer.
- [ ] Ask if there have been any developments among the other Servants.
- [ ] Ask Deis if she can help you make bomb-type spell cards.
- [ ] Ask Caster if she can help you make bomb-type spell cards.
- [ ] Ask for help raiding a hospital's blood supply.

[ ] Go out.
- [ ] See if Illyasviel is home.
- [ ] Investigate the Tohsaka residence.
- [ ] Investigate the church.
- [ ] Try to find Lancer.

[ ] Other?


DM Note: It is now Wednesday evening.
 
In spite of yourself, a smile stretches across your face. He beat you, and you deserved it, but it was a good fight.
Heh, I easily can see Flandre thanking Lancer when she meet him next time for a good fight. Hell, it was a good and refreshing fight

[x] Go see Caster and Deis.
- [x] Talk about Lancer.
- [x] Ask if there have been any developments among the other Servants.
- [x] Ask for help raiding a hospital's blood supply.
 
[X] Go see Caster and Deis.
-[X] Talk about Lancer.
-[X] Ask if there have been any developments among the other Servants.
-[X] Ask Deis if she can help you make bomb-type spell cards.
-[X] Ask Caster if she can help you make bomb-type spell cards.
-[X] Ask for help raiding a hospital's blood supply.
 
[x] Go see Caster and Deis.
- [x] Talk about Lancer.
- [x] Ask if there have been any developments among the other Servants.
- [x] Ask for help raiding a hospital's blood supply.
We need blood asap and I rather not take it from a living source.
 
Damn, still didn't win? Well....I guess Lancer as a bro is still on the table, although frankly that seems fairly unlikely now.

...Though, if Flan really wants to bring Lancer's spear to Remillia to study, easiest way to do that is to keep Lancer alive and bring him along.

We owe Deis for saving our bacon though, like goddamn.


[x] Go see Caster and Deis.
- [x] Talk about Lancer.
- [x] Ask if there have been any developments among the other Servants.
- [x] Ask for help raiding a hospital's blood supply.
 
Next time just eye him. >.<

-edit-

Hope Flan's sister is okay. The last time she saved Flan from severe injury by defying fate her eyes were bleeding and shit.
 
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