The flyers aren't going to be attacking the main camp. Also, you're talking like the main camp is a thousand archers with bows strung and ready. The only mobilized groups are outside the camp; the camp is going to need time to react. It's going to be mostly soldiers doing other things, like sleeping or cooking or whatever. And again, based on the instructions and the map not being to scale, I think our forces can just go around.
The flyers aren't going to be attacking the main camp. Also, you're talking like the main camp is a thousand archers with bows strung and ready. The only mobilized groups are outside the camp; the camp is going to need time to react. And again, based on the instructions and the map not being to scale, I think our forces can just go around.
Another question, if Elena is a sole infantry unit moving with a group of Cavalry, does she just double up? Or do we need to detach her and add her to Ryza's strike force?
Yeah, she'd just ride on the back of one of the horses near the back of the formation and slip off before the fight. EDIT: Not exactly the most realistic thing, but this is Fire Emblem, rescue-droppings a tried-and-true strategy.
Quoted for truth. It'll take a little bit, even for cavalry, but it can be done. As Alectai is saying, though, there are about 5ish archers around the siege camp.
More importantly, they have a Cavalry wing too that can respond, and that assumes nothing else emerges from the main camp that is also Cavalry. And there's not much room for Cavaliers to escape if the Main Camp moves to cut them off.
And sending 3 Pegasus Knights vs 5 Archers gets one or two of those Archers killed at the cost of a total wipe for the Pegasus Knights, it's a suicide run. They can bully isolated Archers that they can take out in one turn, but not a group that outnumbers them.
More importantly, they have a Cavalry wing too that can respond, and that assumes nothing else emerges from the main camp that is also Cavalry. And there's not much room for Cavaliers to escape if the Main Camp moves to cut them off.
And sending 3 Pegasus Knights vs 5 Archers gets one or two of those Archers killed at the cost of a total wipe for the Pegasus Knights, it's a suicide run. They can bully isolated Archers that they can take out in one turn, but not a group that outnumbers them.
Given the control problems, if we do use bolting right now I think the best option is causing chaos in the main camp. It's a big target. If Ryza were better with it I would suggest using it to go after the siege camp instead.
Given the control problems, if we do use bolting right now I think the best option is causing chaos in the main camp. It's a big target. If Ryza were better with it I would suggest using it to go after the siege camp instead.
"What're they doing?" you hear Kelton mutter as he peeks around the wall as well. "There's no way such a small force could take that castle if the Northerners have enough people to risk having some riding around outside."
Artemis hears him, and gives a growl. "Making a point," she says. "'We can come into your land,' they're saying 'and you can't stop us.' They've probably sent a surrender demand, but I don't think they intend to take Starhelm today. Probably waiting for the main force to get ready back in the Empire before making their real push."
"Whoever's in charge down there, however, hasn't figured on reinforcements from this angle. All their men are focused on the castle, so we have an opportunity to punish their arrogance!"
Count Sobieski (Level 5 Cavalier, Silver Sword, Steel Lance) and 3 Generic Cavaliers (Permanently together, Iron Swords and Lances, Cavalry)
Angela (Level 4 Pegasus Knight: Steel Lance, Javelin, Flyer)
Bucephila (Level 4 Pegasus Knight: Iron Lance, Flyer)
Alexandra (Level 3 Pegasus Knight: Iron Lance, Flyer)
Castle Starhelm (Unknown number of forces, will likely reinforce you if possible.)
Enemy Forces:
Group 1: Two Wyvern Riders (Level 6, Steel Lances)
(Only fliers can engage)
Group 2: Nine Cavaliers (Levels 3-5, Most with Steel Lances/Swords, One Silver Lance)
(Fliers/Cavalry reach on first round, Infantry reach on second round)
Group 3: Twelve Fighters/Soldiers in Village, most with Iron Weapons, few Steels
Group 3.1: Two Soldiers (Level 3 and 5) and Two Fighters (Level 3 and 5)
Group 3.2: Two Soldiers (Level 4 and 5) and Two Fighters (Level 3 and 5)
Group 3.3: Two Soldiers (Level 3 and 5) and Two Fighters (Level 4 and 5)
(Fliers/Cavalry reach on first round, Infantry reach on second round)
Group 4: Eleven Soldiers/Archers with incomplete siege equipment. (Levels 1-4, Iron Weapons)
(Fliers reach on first round. Cavalry reach on second round. Infantry reach on third round)
Group 5: Main Imperial camp. Too many to fight, can be harassed by Bolting to limit reinforcements/sow chaos.
(Will likely send out reinforcements, but will take time to get organized)
Battlefield:
You and the rest of the advance force are on a hill amidst the ruins of the Starhelm Library. The Imperial main camp is unassailable by your small numbers, but there are several detachments that are vulnerable. Defeating them will show the Empire that they can't simply roll over a small kingdom without resistance, as well as showing the Northern Kingdoms that they can rely on you to protect them.
Secondary Objectives: Minimize civilian and friendly casualties, clear the skies, scatter the siege equipment.
Turn 1: Bolting to spook the hostile cavalry before our cavalry (and the whitewings) hit them like a thing that is big and hits hard. Infantry to the village for neat terrain that lets them 'hide' from the flying hostiles.
Turn 2 air-to-air engagement (plus Ryza!), cavalry hit-and-fade operations against reinforcements coming from the main camp and basically running interference. Infantry arrives in village.
Turn 3 drag wyverns in range of our bow cavalry and finish them, bolting the siege group. Infantry should have completed the village by then. Infantry engage in house to house fighting. Cavalry can play tag with the west and possibly harass the siege equipment.
Turn 4+ Infantry secure the village (if successful early, move up to hold the bridge), deal with lingering wyverns if they're stubbornly clinging to life, cavalry (and whitewings once we have air superiority) plays tag with the main camp reinforcements and focuses on having the lancers cover our yeomen as they shoot at siege group from across the river. Ryza bombard main camp.
Generalized priorities:
infantry to the village. Complex Terrain that makes it difficult for fliers and cavalry to properly interact, may take some time to secure properly, but is also a static problem and infantry can be a static solution.
Deal with the enemy cavalry and air quickly. If we can drag hostile air into range of our ground by killing their ground, so much the better. If not, Ryza can join up with the air and provide an X factor to make this engagement a bit more favorable.
Prevent siege group from organizing and coalescing into a proper siege factor for long enough that our cavalry can bounce between hitting siege group and playing tag with reinforcements from the main camp.
Of course, it had still taken the entire day to get everyone to agree to a basic plan of how to even get moving! [...] Thus, it had taken ages to hash out who would take what roads, pass by what towns, and Mother that was just for the first two or three days of travel!
Do you want this to end up like the People's Crusade? Because if you march to war without figuring out this kind of logistical minutiae, you're most of the way to a People's Crusade.
To teach their dragon-self that while there was a time and place for decisive action, there was also a time for planning and contemplation.
Such as when you're figuring out what route to take tens of thousands of people on, which will have enough food to feed everyone without needing to siege and pillage nominally-allied towns.
"So are we finally moving out, boss?" Belle asks. "I mean, say what you will about Talons being jerks, but at least they know how to keep a marching schedule."
This guy sounds like he's either an opportunistic bandit robbing people while everyone's distracted by the battle, or a loyal bandit robbing people on Imperial orders. Maybe he's "foraging".
Operationally, the looters are probably securing food supplies for the impending siege. By stealing the food that villagers need to live through the next winter.
It's also worth pointing out that looters are kinda vulnerable. If they don't have a separate group of soldiers on guard and ready for an attack (or if those soldiers are busy fighting a different battle), then you have a bunch of people holding sacks of grain or valuables or whatever instead of their weapons.
Just something to consider.
I like @Barondoctor's outline. I'll try writing something up.
[X] Plan Big Thing that Hits Hard
-[X] Secondary Objectives: Minimize civilian and friendly casualties, clear the skies, scatter the siege equipment.
-[X] Cavalry: Charge the Imperial cavalry before they can react to our presence.
--[X] Ryza: Strike the enemy cavalry with Bolting shortly before allied cavalry reach them, to distract them and disrupt any counter-charge. (Aim for the middle of the group, obviously.)
-[X] Remaining infantry: Approach the village, both to interrupt looting operations and to take cover from aerial hostiles.
-[X] Pegasus knights: Be ready to intercept wyvern riders once they move to intercept one of the other groups of soldiers.
--[X] Do NOT chase the wyverns into enemy archer range.
infantry to the village. Complex Terrain that makes it difficult for fliers and cavalry to properly interact, may take some time to secure properly, but is also a static problem and infantry can be a static solution.
We're not trying to control territory here, just hit and run, so I don't see why the village is a priority target. The only thing there is some infantry busy looting. Compared to that, the siege train, cavalry, and wyverns are all a lot more critical to the enemy's future operations.
Point 1: Barondoctor is arguing that fighting in the village would be advantageous for the infantry. It's like taking the high ground.
Point 2: The looting soldiers are either irrelevant or more important than the siege train, depending on how important logistics are to this arc. The most important thing those soldiers are stealing is food.
I could call it "securing resources" or "gaining local good will" or "claiming advantageous terrain", but it's really all of the above plus "mitigating civilian casualties" and "giving our infantry something to do while our cavalry and fliers deal with the rapid-response-required stuff" and also "putting our infantry as far from the main war camp of the Empire as possible to give them a head start on retreating if / when necessary while still being useful".
Infantry to the village feels like the right move for a ton of reasons.
After sleeping on it, the only real conclusion I've drawn is that unfortunately I feel like splitting the group is not viable so my idea of having the flier team go for the siege engines is a no-go because they'd be too outnumbered. Probably should have saw that immediately but I wasn't thinking of the numbers much, just kind of envisioning a FE map in my head.
We could detach the flier group (Ryza + 3 Whitewings) to deal with the Wyvern Riders earlier instead of waiting for them to reinforce whichever group is our primary target but that's about it for dividing our force I think.
I'm torn on Siege Equipment vs. Village as the priority target. Probably leaning towards the Siege Equipment but that position seems less defensible. Then again we're told the map is not to scale but it definitely feels like we'd be on our own there and Starhelm would be unable to help us even if inclined.
I mostly like GreatWyrmGold's plan, but I think we should be a bit more proactive in getting rid of the wyverns. With that in mind…
[X] Plan Rapid Intervention
-[X] Secondary Objectives: Minimize civilian and friendly casualties, clear the skies, scatter the siege equipment.
-[X] Cavalry: Charge the Imperial cavalry before they can react to our presence.
--[X] Ryza: Strike the enemy cavalry with Bolting shortly before allied cavalry reach them, to distract them and disrupt any counter-charge. (Aim for the middle of the group, obviously.)
-[X] Remaining infantry: Approach the village, both to interrupt looting operations and to take cover from aerial hostiles.
-[X] Pegasus knights and Ryza: Move to take out the Wyvern Riders after Ryza finishes casting Bolting.
--[X] This should go without saying, but Ryza is to use Arcthunder for this part, not Bolting.
--[X] Do NOT chase the wyverns into enemy archer range.
Infantry to village; cavalry/fliers to cavalry, fliers, and then siege would manage both. Admittedly that's assuming some FE4/9 cavalry battlefield maneuverability shenanigans, but we're not exactly running strictly in a specific engine.
There's about two things my plan as written by GWG holds as unknowns--what if the wyverns attack the village, and what if the main camp decides to move quickly and be scary. Our cav/flying troops would probably be able to support the infantry in the first case, and in the second case infantry to the village gives them a head start on running away.
Artemis, Axton, Lancel, and the Count provide our "big thing that hits hard" that hits their cavalry early to give us mobility-superiority. They get joined by the Whitewings because mobility-parity. Our infantry makes for the village because that's the nearest-valuable-thing they can do that leaves them least out of position if something weird happens.
I am making the reasonable assumption that we can probably 3+1v2 the air-to-air, but if that doesn't seem terribly likely dragging the wyverns across the line of attack of our cavalry-clump is the ideal. If the wyverns break off to go for the village...the infantry we have there gets to do something else valuable.
I am also making the reasonable assumption that we can probably get Assorted Yeomen to volley-fire to slaughter the siege from the castle side of the river and the lancers can probably screen / cover against quick-thinking reinforcements from the main camp.
The plans as written both agree on what I'd call the major important points, only differing on reactive-vs-proactive flyer engagement. I lean proactive, but I'm not sure the enemy will do what we want them to do.
Have a plan for if the enemy doesn't do what you want them to do. Devise means of forcing them into letting you do what you want to do. I'd call these elements 1 and 2 of strategy, but I'm pretty sure someone beat me to it by at least a thousand years.
I could call it "securing resources" or "gaining local good will" or "claiming advantageous terrain", but it's really all of the above plus "mitigating civilian casualties" and "giving our infantry something to do while our cavalry and fliers deal with the rapid-response-required stuff" and also "putting our infantry as far from the main war camp of the Empire as possible to give them a head start on retreating if / when necessary while still being useful".
Infantry to the village feels like the right move for a ton of reasons.
The likely outcome of sending infantry to the village is they fight other infantry in the village for a few turns, then have to withdraw as our raid comes to an end. I don't see the point. Enemy infantry who will likely otherwise be busy looting, and thus uninvolved in relieving their fellows while we gang up on those other, more strategically important groups to do as much damage to key enemy assets in the time we have before the main camp gets organized and chases us off. Even if we successfully win the infantry engagement in the village before having to retreat, what's the point? What does it accomplish? There might be some civilians there who didn't flee to the castle (we haven't seen any) but is that a major strategic consideration worth devoting the bulk of our forces to, meaning we'll be in riskier fights elsewhere and likely take larger casualties?
Turn 1: Bolting to spook the hostile cavalry before our cavalry (and the whitewings) hit them like a thing that is big and hits hard. Infantry to the village for neat terrain that lets them 'hide' from the flying hostiles.
Turn 2 air-to-air engagement (plus Ryza!), cavalry hit-and-fade operations against reinforcements coming from the main camp and basically running interference. Infantry arrives in village.
Turn 3 drag wyverns in range of our bow cavalry and finish them, bolting the siege group. Infantry should have completed the village by then. Infantry engage in house to house fighting. Cavalry can play tag with the west and possibly harass the siege equipment.
Turn 4+ Infantry secure the village (if successful early, move up to hold the bridge), deal with lingering wyverns if they're stubbornly clinging to life, cavalry (and whitewings once we have air superiority) plays tag with the main camp reinforcements and focuses on having the lancers cover our yeomen as they shoot at siege group from across the river. Ryza bombard main camp.
All right, let's handle both of your objections at once.
Cav+flyers+bolting vs enemy cavs is an ugly matchup. For them. They lose, either moderately or entirely. If entirely, and you're sending the infantry there, it's a wasted effort. Kelton gets to poke the dead and the dying and Belle gets to see if any of them are carrying anything interesting.
If the cavs only lose moderately, they either break and flee (in which case only cavalry can properly chase) or they fight to the last (and our cavalry can counterattack and probably win then). If by some mad chance the cavalry has managed to weather our cavalry, our flyers, and bolting...they're going to eat another set of cavalry attacks on turn 2 before our infantry show up. Anything that can handle that much hurting isn't going to so much as sneeze at our infantry.
Sending the infantry at the cavalry is a waste.
Sending the infantry at the wyverns is impossible. They can't jump that high.
Sending the infantry at the main camp is a suicide run.
Sending the infantry at the siege is a longer and more convoluted form of suicide because there's no real great way to escape once the main camp wakes up to the fact that they're there and they're not super-mobile. (They're infantry.)
What's left then?
I imagine you've played at least one Fire Emblem game, you always secure the villages because they always have stuff.
The village also has enemy infantry that should be easy pickings. If you get a good opportunity to wipe out hostile units when and where they're at a disadvantage, you do it. If you get a good opportunity to take favorable terrain, you do it. Getting to do both is a gimme. Getting to do both and do the classic Fire-Emblem-y thing of securing/rescuing a village? What else would you be doing?
What strategic consideration are you figuring the infantry can do that's more important than securing that southeast flank? In the event we get driven off super-quickly, the village and that southeast flank are a good thing to secure so we don't get boxed in. In the event things go a bit longer and the village is easily secured, the infantry can hold the bridge crossings and rally the castle to assist.
@Barondoctor - Okay, I think I see why I was coming at this from a different angle. I've never played any Fire Emblem games; I'm thinking in terms of straight battle tactics. In real life I would consider the distracted infantry in the village to be an opportunity to attack the other groups with a low likelihood of being bothered by the low priority infantry while I killed more strategically valuable enemy assets.
If villages have a special meaning in Fire Emblem, and you are sure those assumptions apply to the quest, then what you're saying makes more sense.
I mean, in real life, looters aren't running around ready to do battle. Interrupting a "foraging party" while it's in the middle of pillaging a village is a great way to kill, capture, or disperse a lot of enemy soldiers with relatively little risk. Also in real life, the food being looted by the foraging party is a more valuable asset than any enemy soldier, especially when the army is planning to sit still for several months.
I cannot emphasize this enough. If we're going by real life rules, operations trump tactics.
In most FE games, villages appear on maps, and if the players visit them, they get items and even recruits sometimes. However, there are usually bandits that will try to destroy those villages, preventing the players from getting the good stuff.
I will admit, I hadn't thought of that connection, but now that I have... yeah, that'll be a way to get you all some items.
Tradition since FE1 and pretty much every FE game except FE2 has set up Villages as a place with civilians endangered by war, who are advised to lock their doors and hide their valuables from brigands by the player party. This can be a source of useful information, items, and even recruits.
Tradition since FE1 and pretty much every FE game except FE2 has set up Villages as a place with civilians endangered by war, who are advised to lock their doors and hide their valuables from brigands by the player party. This can be a source of useful information, items, and even recruits.
It's also an easy way to lose your fast units, since enemies frequently swarm those parts of the map in large numbers.
Kind of a cheap trick, really. "Here's a really valuable bonus objective that only your lone pegasus knight can possibly get to in time. Oh, and the path she'll have to take is within striking range of every archer on the map. Have fun with that."
It's also an easy way to lose your fast units, since enemies frequently swarm those parts of the map in large numbers.
Kind of a cheap trick, really. "Here's a really valuable bonus objective that only your lone pegasus knight can possibly get to in time. Oh, and the path she'll have to take is within striking range of every archer on the map. Have fun with that."
I have played pretty much every FE except FE 1/3/11/12 multiple times and I cannot for the life of me figure out which circumstance you're talking about. It's possible you might need to employ your pre-promotes or make a concerted effort, towards it, but if there's a village under threat there's either a way of dealing with it or it's FE4 where it might slowly reduce your reward but it's not instant all or nothing you lose if you don't full tilt sprint.
That said, Disturbance in Agustria gets close, but that's less "it'll kill your units to get there" and more "the conditions to get there are very tight and effectively require speedrunning to the first castle and then speedrunning your new units to the Bargain Ring Village" but it's difficult more than impossible.
I have played pretty much every FE except FE 1/3/11/12 multiple times and I cannot for the life of me figure out which circumstance you're talking about.
I suspect Random Sanity doesn't have any specific instance in mind, just a frustration from which they're trying to reverse engineer a scenario.
Villages are definitely designed to make you play more aggressively than you would without that kind of time-sensitive objective. And if you prefer playing defensively (or struggle at playing aggressively), that can be frustrating.
