I've never considered the concept of morphological self determination within a paradigm that has 'souls' as an actual thing.
Spiffy .
But please Sirim. We're your friends
Also, Pepper has vague access to all the knowledge of anything that ever dreamed. At the very least he should be able to give an Aid Another.
[X] Suggest that Sirim consult with the rest of the party before he does more soul surgery
-[X] "It's your soul to tamper with as you please, but you have friends who you can rely on now. You're not in Nidal any longer, and there is no need to go it alone.
--[X] "And it would perhaps be advisable to have someone present who can provide assistance if the next alteration, assuming you ever feel the need to make further changes, causes more serious side-effects."
-[ ] Seriously. We'd be much happier being in a position to throw magic at whatever you're trying [read: buffed review of planned methodology, and also with the act itself if buffs won't interfere with said method].
I know my above bit is doubling up on your sentiment, but I much prefer having everyone invovled than just 'someone'
----
Actually, thinking on it... I find myself wondering why becoming a lich considered a great evil.
Not as in "we should do that" but more "what parts of the process make it evil" and "why are those parts an evil thing".
My considered stance is "do self soul alteration if you like, but only with the knowledge of what parts must not be altered/what methods to avoid".
-[ ] Seriously. We'd be much happier being in a position to throw magic at whatever you're trying [read: buffed review of planned methodology, and also with the act itself if buffs won't interfere with said method].
I know my above bit is doubling up on your sentiment, but I much prefer having everyone invovled than just 'someone'
--[] "And it would perhaps be advisable to have us present so we can provide assistance the next time you make an alteration, assuming you ever feel the need to make additional changes. The magic we have at our disposal can improve the likelihood of your success and help to fix anything that goes wrong."
What do you want us to say to the man who split his soul in two and murdered half of it with the explicit agreement of the other half? This one is child's play in comparison. Yes, it's unsettling for anyone not in the know, but apart from that? Logically Sirim is right, this is something we would agree to as there aren't any major objections to be made, so what are we trying to do here, get Mina on board with the fact by having her pre-approve the process?
And I guess, signal Sirim that Mina needs a heads up to come to terms with certain practices of his.
Since the two are my favorite chars in the quest I do not mind the interaction that much, but I feel Mina is asking for something that is not necessarily her due, and hope that she will recognize the concession.
What do you want us to say to the man who split his soul in two and murdered half of it with the explicit agreement of the other half? This one is child's play in comparison. Yes, it's unsettling for anyone not in the know, but apart from that? Logically Sirim is right, this is something we would agree to as there aren't any major objections to be made, so what are we trying to do here, get Mina on board with the fact by having her pre-approve the process?
And I guess, signal Sirim that Mina needs a heads up to come to terms with certain practices of his.
Since the two are my favorite chars in the quest I do not mind the interaction that much, but I feel Mina is asking for something that is not necessarily her due, and hope that she will recognize the concession.
I don't think we should necessarily try to talk him out of doing it, but he doesn't need to do that sort of stuff without getting input from the rest of the party. They're additional sources of knowledge and buffs that he can draw on for help.
We trust our party members to do things they are good at, be it an effort shared by the party, or their own. Gorok hunts and tracks, Cob experiments, Kori divines, Mina worries, Sirim splices his soul for knowledge. He knows he can ask others for help if he needs to; he already did when it came to deciphering the demonic book that contained the secret of his restoration. Therefore, he thought this was not a big deal. A sentiment that I thought most of us would agree to; if he put this to a vote we'd say 'go for it'. In fact, it was our vote that prompted it.
So why, then, are we making any kind of deal out of it? The only answer I can come up with is 'for the sake of others' peace of mind'.
We trust our party members to do things they are good at, be it an effort shared by the party, or their own. Gorok hunts and tracks, Cob experiments, Kori divines, Mina worries, Sirim splices his soul for knowledge. He knows he can ask others for help if he needs to; he already did when it came to deciphering the demonic book that contained the secret of his restoration. Therefore, he thought this was not a big deal. A sentiment that I thought most of us would agree to; if he put this to a vote we'd say 'go for it'. In fact, it was our vote that prompted it.
So why, then, are we making any kind of deal out of it? The only answer I can come up with is 'for the sake of others' peace of mind'.
[X] You do not see the problem, it seems to have worked fine. You're sure he knows we're there to help should he need assistance.
-[X] That said, perhaps he will be more careful about shedding parts of himself in the future? What is lost can't always be regained.
I have not voted, though. This is my take as a player if I were to judge the situation from my chair.
But I rather enjoy the clash that comes out of having good and evil aligned party members. Is 'for the sake of others' peace of mind' such a bad motivation as to be not worth mentioning? Sirim has been noticeably restraining himself when it comes to his opinions, tolerating the 'foibles' of his companions. This here is another of those situations. So long as Mina acknowledges she is asking for a concession here, a concession can be given.
In return... well, she already agreed to help him even though his methods horrify her. If the two will be interacting more I'd consider that a bonus.
And hey, if Mina can consider if an engine running on corpses could be ethical, I'd like her to think of what is an ethical way to splice one's soul, and what her objection truly is.
While its his soul, one should always be careful about altering it in any one.
[X] Goldfish
@Goldfish maybe add to vote and point out that while removing his greediness might be useful sometimes, and while we are not hurting for money, it could have some knock-on effects like not seeing the point of haggling, making sure he gets his fair due, etc. Greed, when tempered, is a good thing after all.
Same thing if he remove his rage, sadness, or other emotions one would view as negative.
While its his soul, one should always be careful about altering it in any one.
[X] Goldfish
@Goldfish maybe add to vote and point out that while removing his greediness might be useful sometimes, and while we are not hurting for money, it could have some knock-on effects like not seeing the point of haggling, making sure he gets his fair due, etc. Greed, when tempered, is a good thing after all.
Same thing if he remove his rage, sadness, or other emotions one would view as negative.
The damage is done now, at least in that regard. Hopefully he'll think twice before deciding to carve out another piece of himself, or at least ask for a second opinion.
I added a bit about taking more care if he ever decides to do something like this again.
And hey, if Mina can consider if an engine running on corpses could be ethical, I'd like her to think of what is an ethical way to splice one's soul, and what her objection truly is.
I am reminded of that bottle from Aswoah that could turn donated blood into healing potions.
Perverse incentives...
Anyway. I trust sirim but this kind of stinks of a Fiat Acompli?
[X] You trust Sirim to handle himself and his soul.
-[X] No one you know is as knowledgeable or experienced in the topic as he.
-[X] You trust him.
-[X] Ask him point blank why he didn't tell us about this beforehand, we would have helped him. Or did he think we wouldn't care?
An engine is a mechanism for conversion of one type of energy into another. While she may not want to kill people to pull a boat, she does not object to the act of conversion itself.
I'd like to treat the point of Mina's objection here, though. Manipulation of his soul saved Sirim his life and sanity; there is no convincing him that it is bad in principle. So what is it that Mina wants to avoid? I'd like to get to that point, and for Sirim to consider it and respond.
[x] You trust Sirim to handle himself and his soul. No one you know is as knowledgeable or experienced in the topic as he.
-[x] To keep the peace you would like for Mina to lay down what she really objects to, here, and for Sirim to discuss this more openly, now and in the future.
Making the vote with this understanding in mind:
What are we trying to do here, get Mina on board with the fact by having her pre-approve the process?
And I guess, signal Sirim that Mina needs a heads up to come to terms with certain practices of his.
If Sirim walks Mina through the logic, and gets her to concede, "I guess nothing is too wrong with that", nothing really changes but we have less tension in the party. If there is indeed something that she would not budge on, this would be useful for Sirim to know.
And it's a little funny watching Mina's preconceptions fall one after the other.
Personally I think she views it as an extreme form of self harm :/ which it kind of is.
[x] You trust Sirim to handle himself and his soul. No one you know is as knowledgeable or experienced in the topic as he.
-[x] To keep the peace you would like for Mina to lay down what she really objects to, here, and for Sirim to discuss this more openly, now and in the future.
I do expect Sirim did this without asking precisely to present it as a Fiat acompli.
Which is understandable. But also not an amazing thing to do?
He know Mina is smart too. Brushing off the concerns of one of the... what 3? 4? People in the entire world who care about him...
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jan 6, 2025 at 10:04 AM, finished with 22 posts and 4 votes.
[X] You do not see the problem, it seems to have worked fine. You're sure he knows we're there to help should he need assistance. -[X] That said, perhaps he will be more careful about shedding parts of himself in the future? What is lost can't always be regained.
[x] You trust Sirim to handle himself and his soul. No one you know is as knowledgeable or experienced in the topic as he.
-[x] To keep the peace you would like for Mina to lay down what she really objects to, here, and for Sirim to discuss this more openly, now and in the future.
[x] You trust Sirim to handle himself and his soul. No one you know is as knowledgeable or experienced in the topic as he.
-[x] To keep the peace you would like for Mina to lay down what she really objects to, here, and for Sirim to discuss this more openly, now and in the future.
[x] You trust Sirim to handle himself and his soul. No one you know is as knowledgeable or experienced in the topic as he.
-[x] To keep the peace you would like for Mina to lay down what she really objects to, here, and for Sirim to discuss this more openly, now and in the future.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jan 6, 2025 at 1:24 PM, finished with 26 posts and 7 votes.
[x] You trust Sirim to handle himself and his soul. No one you know is as knowledgeable or experienced in the topic as he.
-[x] To keep the peace you would like for Mina to lay down what she really objects to, here, and for Sirim to discuss this more openly, now and in the future.
[X] You do not see the problem, it seems to have worked fine. You're sure he knows we're there to help should he need assistance. -[X] That said, perhaps he will be more careful about shedding parts of himself in the future? What is lost can't always be regained.
" I think..." you weigh concern against the autonomy of one's own soul in your mind and find the scales tipping more towards the latter. "That Sirim is the foremost authority in matters of his own soul by both ownership and knowledge. If there is more to be said on the matter, the two of you should talk about it some place less dangerous than this."
Mina looks abashed for a moment, but Sirim must have said something for her alone because she looks back up at the shade with a firm nod of 'later' as Gorok approaches the door flanked by Cob in halfling form. The last thing you are looking for is trouble, but if you are to find it better that it be with Cob's dagger in arm's reach of the mage.
The door creeps open slowly to the sight of a familiar landing, seemingly without a soul in sight.
"Who calls?" A voice, deep and sonorous as a bell of brass, rings out onto the busy street, causing a nearby fellow who had been juggling yams for pennies to drop them and stare daggers into the back of your head.
"Ones seeking wisdom!" Gorok answers with perhaps more grandeur than sincerity. You need a scroll of the kind used by sea mages across Avistan and Garund, one that summons a false crew which is not dead and never had been alive.
Come to think of it, maybe that is a touch remarkable. How jaded I have grown of the wonders of world here under the empty heavens. Before the thought can bloom into introspection, the carpet in front of the door undulates like the tongue of some enormous frog. Isn't that a cheerful thought.
All of you step inside other than Sirim who can fly, the lucky bitter.
The door promptly slams shut, impelled by the same unseen force, and you are faced with a woman standing in the precise same spot Anippe once did with all the trap leavers and switches, as though her own magic isn't trouble enough. That Eshe River Runner is a mage could not be denied even if you had met her on the street. Garbed in robes of red and black set with golden geometric patterns the woman wears rings, talismans, and other adornments to match any of yours. But whereas you had acquired all them from places near and far under the earth and over it, all of her accoutrements speak to that far distant land from which her order had been banished long ago. That the arch-lords could keep so much of themselves for so long is admirable.
"Well, are you going to keep on wearing those masks or show your true faces?"
"I fear, magistrix, that we have been here once before, though not in a manner of our choosing," Mina says as she disposes of her glamor along with all the rest of you.
"You're the ones who... with the goblin..." the mage seems taken aback. Evidently she is not one for whom this is commonplace, and ever less does she enjoy the novelty. "If nothing else I cannot fault your courage, though one might call it gal if unconstrained by the presence of guests. What manner of spell or enchantment do you seek of this disciple of Nex?"
Gorok explains what you need and the reasons for it, that you must leave soon for Cheliax to rescue some of those locked behind the borders of the devils worshippers' empire.
"West... you want to go west on the sea... by day's end..."
"If the craftsmen can deliver, yes," your friend says, though from the way his shoulders tense he doesn't like the tone.
"Of all the strange heralds that fate might have sent." Eshe shakes her head as though to clear cobwebs from her mind. "I will give you your spell and ask for no gold..."
Your stomach tightens even more than when you heard the word 'fate'.
"As long as you take my daughter Anippe with you."
Five questions are asked aloud, one only in the mind, all in essence the same: 'Why?'
With some reluctance she explains that an old rival of hers, who is counted among the Bloodlords of Geb, though not the most exalted of that damnable company, has vowed to claim Anippe's rites for his own dark purposes before the year is out. "I sought counsel, the divination of the genie lords who rule the high airs, and they said her fate was clouded save in one regard; if I would set her in the company of the first unbidden guest to come to through door heading west then she would be safe from Gebbite schemes."
"Pardon magistrix," you interject with just a touch of hesitation. "But there seems to be a flaw in that logic...?"
"I cannot come with you and he knows that. Why do you think he choose now of all time?" The question is heavy with anguish.
"No, I meant what of other dangers?"
"Have you made enemies of the Thrune dynasty? No, then that is less of a concern."
"I have made an enemy of the Black Triune," Sirim notes silently, though not as acerbically as you thought he might.
"Well, it would cost us no more time or delay at least," Gorok muses, though for the benefit of you and Cob as much as Mina since he speaks duergar.
"Sure, sure, I teach her how to skewer rats an' cook 'em, how to walk the lines, and pick locks," Cob is obviously up for the challenge while Mina looks torn, unsure if you would be taking the child into danger or away from it.
What does Kori think?
[] Take the girl along, if you managed to get a baby out of Cheliax you can take a child into it and back out again
-[] The scroll is enough
-[] The Ghosts should ask for more payment
--[] Write in what (Optional)
[] No, this is the last thing you need to be dealing with
With som reluctance she explains that an old rival of hers who is counted among the Bloodlords of Geb, though not the most exalted of that damnable company has vowed to claim Anippe's rites for his own dark purposes before the year is out. "I saght counsel, the divination of the genie lords who rule the high airs and they said her fate was clouded save in one regard, if I would set her in the company of the first unbidden guest to come to my door heading west then she would be safe from Gebbite schemes."
[X] Take the girl along, if you managed to get a baby out of Cheliax you can take a child into it and back out again
-[X] We will gladly accept one of the scrolls as payment, but we were hoping to buy at least a pair of them today, if possible. The journey from Cheliax could be a long one, and it wouldn't do us much good for the spell to elapsed when our ship is in the middle of the Inner Sea.
--[X] Also purchase a Lucky Number spell scrolls (25 gold) and a few Calculated Luck spell scrolls (375 gold each).
-[X] Does she have suitable equipment for Anippe? If Anippe is the target of a powerful mage, she needs to be warded against Scrying and similar magics, at the very least.
-[X] Has Anippe begun to learn to wield magic similar to her mother? Or does she posses any other noteworthy skills or abilities? <Basically, does she have any class levels, and if so, what are they?>
-[X] Does she have suitable equipment for Anippe? If Anippe is the target of a powerful mage, she needs to be warded against Scrying and similar magics, at the very least.
.
