But that would be pointless since everyone could load up Argo's guide anyway. Even magi will get most of basics explained to them, or they will luck into finding useful tome. You can't just get theory needed to start research path out of ether, especially without prior experience.
Would they? I mean the basics sure, fine. But we've already established that those are known enough that the players have grown beyond them.

For the advanced shit though, groups are already concealing their best stuff like the gravity magic the DDA uses.

If that gets incentivized enough, and the different players are starting to seriously branch off into their own magecraft, that is something that Kayaba is going to want to incentivize and encourage to improve the simulation.
 
Would they? I mean the basics sure, fine. But we've already established that those are known enough that the players have grown beyond them.

For the advanced shit though, groups are already concealing their best stuff like the gravity magic the DDA uses.

If that gets incentivized enough, and the different players are starting to seriously branch off into their own magecraft, that is something that Kayaba is going to want to incentivize and encourage to improve the simulation.
Thing is, only thing he actually needs to do is to make [knowledge originated from NPC] advance slower than [knowledge originated from players] and he's set. It's like giving free rolls in mobile games.
 
Would they? I mean the basics sure, fine. But we've already established that those are known enough that the players have grown beyond them.

For the advanced shit though, groups are already concealing their best stuff like the gravity magic the DDA uses.

If that gets incentivized enough, and the different players are starting to seriously branch off into their own magecraft, that is something that Kayaba is going to want to incentivize and encourage to improve the simulation.

I don't see how NPC magecraft instructors being enabled or disabled has anything to do with anything above the basics, since they just give the basics.

Also, at the moment the incentives lead the other way — that is to say, the system incentives researching new player-created spells and sharing them with as many people as possible, rather than secreting them away to a select few.
6.4 said:
"Ah." Ilya interrupted her own confident nod when she received a pop-up message for herself. It had the same general format and layout as an announcement for someone who won a battle, or successfully learned a [Spell], or had cast a [Unique Spell] for the first time.

[The [Unique Spell] [Mystic Eyes of Binding] has been upgraded to an [Extra Spell]. It can now be shared using a [Spell Book] or [Magecraft Inheritance] with any player who meets the prerequisites listed in the spell description.]

Compared to the XP bonus she had received when she used her [Mystic Eye] the first time, the upgrade bonus was about the same.

Was this… was Kayaba intending to teach players to freely share their magic with everyone? No, there were concrete benefits for doing so, and absolutely no indication that the power or effect would go down. The only reason to keep your magecraft to yourself was vanity.
 
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Would they? I mean the basics sure, fine. But we've already established that those are known enough that the players have grown beyond them.

For the advanced shit though, groups are already concealing their best stuff like the gravity magic the DDA uses.

If that gets incentivized enough, and the different players are starting to seriously branch off into their own magecraft, that is something that Kayaba is going to want to incentivize and encourage to improve the simulation.
Kayaba want the players to share their research with each other, not hoard it like the CT does, so what you're saying pretty much goes completely against his desire.
 
I mean, it depends on what Kayaba wants from his player base. If he wants to make 10,000 magi, then sure, you're right, but I kind of feel that's a pretty lackluster goal. If he wants to basically crowdsource magecraft research from a captive research team, for example and on the other hand, then that would be completely pointless - he'd just get a lot of reproduction of existing results.

For most reasonable goals, I suspect Kayaba would be better off just giving his player base access to Wikipedia, as it were.

(Speaking of which, I'm kind of surprised he hasn't given them access to Wikipedia - or at least in-game editions of, say, the Periodic Table and every physics/materials science textbook written in the past two hundred yeas. @daniel_gudman?)
 
Sorry if this is obvious....

But several questions.

1. So.... kayaba can alter souls? As in, add in magic circuits?

2. So do the magecraft invented in-game work in real life?

3. How does the playets magic circuits interact with the game?
 
a) He claims to be able to, and we've no reason to believe otherwise. He can certainly "read" souls better than anyone in canon that we know of. Though he's not strictly speaking "adding" magic circuits, so much as "allowing for the expression of hypothetical circuits" - he can't give, say, Argo more Circuits, that we know of.

b) Don't know! Hopefully, it'll be kinda lame if they leave the game and the magecraft goes away. :p

c) Mostly they're restricted by the contract woven into the game (I suspect there was magecraft buried in the EULA :V.) Outside interference (like Rin) or bullshit (like Ilya) can still manage to affect the game some, but it's very difficult.
 
c) Mostly they're restricted by the contract woven into the game (I suspect there was magecraft buried in the EULA :V.) Outside interference (like Rin) or bullshit (like Ilya) can still manage to affect the game some, but it's very difficult.
We actually know that the contract is pretty dumb-powerful, from when Ilya and Kayaba made their agreement.

Apparently Kayaba used the research he got from Makiri's design of command seals to bind the players to the world, geass style.
 
Concerning minmaxing magecraft, people need to remember that magecraft needs to be mysterious and follow very roundabout paths. Simpler does not equal easier in magecraft, in fact the very opposite holds true which is why something as 'simple' as telekinesis is a lot more difficult than expected and is considered inefficient compared to just doing it normally. That's probably the reason why something as direct as the grail's wishcraft needs something as ludicrously powerful as the souls of heroic spirits to work.

There's no point in using magecraft to follow science's path, if you want a simple common sense approach just be a scientist and don't bother with magecraft.
 
a) He claims to be able to, and we've no reason to believe otherwise. He can certainly "read" souls better than anyone in canon that we know of. Though he's not strictly speaking "adding" magic circuits, so much as "allowing for the expression of hypothetical circuits" - he can't give, say, Argo more Circuits, that we know of.

b) Don't know! Hopefully, it'll be kinda lame if they leave the game and the magecraft goes away. :p

c) Mostly they're restricted by the contract woven into the game (I suspect there was magecraft buried in the EULA :V.) Outside interference (like Rin) or bullshit (like Ilya) can still manage to affect the game some, but it's very difficult.
I got a weird idea where people in guilds learnt banded together in the real world to defend against themselves from stuff like DAA and rogue mages.
 
I got a weird idea where people in guilds learnt banded together in the real world to defend against themselves from stuff like DAA and rogue mages.
I don't know about DAA's, they're probably beyond their pay grade, but rogue magi and Enforcers... 'snot a bad idea.

Though their best defense is always going to be the press. Make too much of a fuss and the community of 10k technomages will splatter magecraft all over the internet. The ability to flip the table is a card they're not going to want to play, but it's a solid last resort if the Association doesn't play nice.
 
I don't know about DAA's, they're probably beyond their pay grade, but rogue magi and Enforcers... 'snot a bad idea.

Though their best defense is always going to be the press. Make too much of a fuss and the community of 10k technomages will splatter magecraft all over the internet. The ability to flip the table is a card they're not going to want to play, but it's a solid last resort if the Association doesn't play nice.
Problem. The Association is bigger, has more mind magic, and might begin to simply kill them for endangering the masquerade.
 
Problem. The Association is bigger, has more mind magic, and might begin to simply kill them for endangering the masquerade.
Right, but that's the problem. Sheer numbers. The Association is ... actually it's questionable if it's all that much bigger, since magi are rare and keep to themselves, and the Enforcers are a rare subset of that. Even if they are bigger, though, they'd have to coordinate a simultaneous strike on the command-chain of basically every guild, who are physically scattered across Japan in order to be sure they could prevent a Masquerade breach. Not ten thousand locations, to be sure, but probably on the order of a hundred or two.

They can't just "begin" to kill them, or the nuclear option will get pushed - they'd have to get them all at once, and if they were even a half hour off (hell, even less, potentially) internet and technomagic means that they could say good-bye to secrecy. And with secrecy goes their Mysteries.

I'm not entirely sure the guilds could or would pull that off, but the MA don't know that. It's a very, very good bluff to play.
 
Doesn't Bartolomei alone have like five hundred strong battalion of elite magi? Plus the Church will also happily lend the hand, not to mention professional criminal magi bullying bunch of people into submission.


And "i will tell people on the internet that magic is real" isn't much of a threat.

Their best bet is to keep their head down, make union of their own and then hope that dealing with them is too much effort for anyone involved.
 
Doesn't Bartolomei alone have like five hundred strong battalion of elite magi? Plus the Church will also happily lend the hand, not to mention professional criminal magi bullying bunch of people into submission.


And "i will tell people on the internet that magic is real" isn't much of a threat.

Their best bet is to keep their head down, make union of their own and then hope that dealing with them is too much effort for anyone involved.
The thing is -- let's assume the video's pre-recorded, because it'd be silly not to. So a detailed tutorial on "how to open your Circuits if you have any" gets posted on the internet.

Let's say 1% of the viewers believe it, and of those 1% succeed. If we start from an audience of around ten million people - and popular Youtube videos get way more than that - that's on the order of a few thousand people. Scattered all over the world, no particular way to track them - maybe a few families have precog or scrying, but they'll be massively outnumbered.

And then they start doing stunts. Sure, magecraft is hard, but they don't need to succeed to do things that are blatantly impossible. Someone touches a brick, Reinforces it wrong, the brick crumbles to dust - and they do it on live television. Only takes one for that first 1% figure to skyrocket.

No. If the MA want to keep their Mysteries in the face of an internet threat, their only real hope is trying to find an anti-memetic Mystery - some sort of information control spell that can target "a secret" and keep it safe. And that sort of thing is easily in the "one step from Sorcery" tier.

The risk of the above, more than anything, is what will bring them to the negotiating table. They're not going to be certain it's possible - but they'll be uncertain enough that they can leverage it as part of a contract.
 
The thing is -- let's assume the video's pre-recorded, because it'd be silly not to. So a detailed tutorial on "how to open your Circuits if you have any" gets posted on the internet.

Let's say 1% of the viewers believe it, and of those 1% succeed. If we start from an audience of around ten million people - and popular Youtube videos get way more than that - that's on the order of a few thousand people. Scattered all over the world, no particular way to track them - maybe a few families have precog or scrying, but they'll be massively outnumbered.

And then they start doing stunts. Sure, magecraft is hard, but they don't need to succeed to do things that are blatantly impossible. Someone touches a brick, Reinforces it wrong, the brick crumbles to dust - and they do it on live television. Only takes one for that first 1% figure to skyrocket..
Right from the get go, you have to assume that they didn't just put preemptive ban on videos like that, or that they lack precognitive abilities to take it down moments after it goes up.

Then, you are looking at couple hundred to couple thousand people at most, even for actually popular channels. With one in ten thousand, chances of anyone getting power is almost nonexistent, and then they can't do shit since they have yet to learn spells. So chance of even a single person manifesting power is abysmal, and that person will be dealt with easily. Assuming that they don't have resources like Grails or orders similar to Chaldea to deal with that even more trivially.

Finally, you are hilariously underestimating how good magi are at this secrecy thing. They regularly cover up cities being eaten by undead monstrosities, or tens of thousand of people being kidnapped for experiments by the likes of Buzz Cola and Atrium. Compared to that, a youtube video doesn't even register.

And even if they do succeed, they only managed to get on Association's shit list, so they will be fucked anyway. And honestly, i doubt that among tens of thousands of people already involved with magic someone didn't try to threaten MA with youtube videos and similar anyway.
 
Also, look at how good photoshop is. People wouldn't go: "hey, that's cool!" They'll go: "whoa, nice photoshop".

Add in the fact that using circuits incorrectly kills you, the general scepticism towards magic, and then....
 
*shrug* See, the thing is, you might be right - but will the MA really want to risk that?

They have some sort of existing setup, sure. (Though honestly I dunno how much they interface with modern technology, while it's probably better than fanon it's still true that Rin doesn't have a cell phone and Waver was exceptional for playing video games.) But that setup is designed for localized mass deaths, or scattered individuals. Not for ten thousand coordinated magi trying to spill the beans, probably with better technomagic than the MA has. Plus Shirou, who is very much a hard target and doesn't give a fig for secrecy if he can trade it for lives.

Maybe they could deal with that anyway. But what do they gain from playing hardball? Compared to free access to a whole new pool of naive-ish researchers they can exploit?

Trading a guarantee of safety for a guarantee of secrecy and some research notes is absolutely in the MA's favor.

So while I do expect a few attempts early after the game, I strongly suspect they'll die off quickly.
 
You people have no idea how hard it is to just sit an all the spoilers from the TFF Idea Thread. Especially when you guys start to ask question that are considered Common Knowledge there and I have to double check everything I say. X_X
 
Plus in all honesty I am not sure if the Church cares if the general populace knows about Magecrat or not. I mean they didn't seem to care when Paracelsus was planning to reveal it. I think the Church only preserves the Masquerade to keep the Association from doing well what the Association normally does.
 
The thing is -- let's assume the video's pre-recorded, because it'd be silly not to. So a detailed tutorial on "how to open your Circuits if you have any" gets posted on the internet.

Let's say 1% of the viewers believe it, and of those 1% succeed. If we start from an audience of around ten million people - and popular Youtube videos get way more than that - that's on the order of a few thousand people. Scattered all over the world, no particular way to track them - maybe a few families have precog or scrying, but they'll be massively outnumbered.

And then they start doing stunts. Sure, magecraft is hard, but they don't need to succeed to do things that are blatantly impossible. Someone touches a brick, Reinforces it wrong, the brick crumbles to dust - and they do it on live television. Only takes one for that first 1% figure to skyrocket.

No. If the MA want to keep their Mysteries in the face of an internet threat, their only real hope is trying to find an anti-memetic Mystery - some sort of information control spell that can target "a secret" and keep it safe. And that sort of thing is easily in the "one step from Sorcery" tier.

The risk of the above, more than anything, is what will bring them to the negotiating table. They're not going to be certain it's possible - but they'll be uncertain enough that they can leverage it as part of a contract.

First problem is the "detailed tutorial" bit. Even in the online game with the System Assist, it is rather difficult to open your circuits. Practically everyone needed multiple attempts to try out different modes of thought and method to see what worked, and both the failed and successful attempts were painful.
So the question is, if you, personally, found an online tutorial about magic, would you a) watch it the whole way through, b) follow the instructions closely enough to have a chance of succeeding, and c) try two or three or five more times after the first attempt was unpleasant when you have no guarantee that even doing it right would actually provide the promised powers?

If you answered yes, then put your money where your mouth is, find something similar (even if it isn't the F/SN) online, and do it two or three times.
Pain? Sacrificing a chicken? Drawing out intricate patterns in chalk? Dancing and chanting skyclad at midnight? We have no more reason to assume that there is or isn't a Masquerade in our real world than a character in the story does.
If not, then why would you expect any of the mundane people in the story to? Why would the MA feel threatened when most people naturally ignore all but the most blatant and life-altering exposures of magic as trickery?

Second problem is the 1% of 1% of 10 million. If it is a detailed tutorial, fewer people will probably be interested in sitting through it to begin with unless you spice it up. Also, a lot of Youtube video views are, as far as I know, repeats, because people like to watch and rewatch and revisit their favorite videos. So while it may get a lot of views, chances are (to my knowledge, I'm less than sure about this bit) that on average any one person might view it four or five times. So it will be a lot less likely to get to the numbers you're assuming.

Third, the "scattered all over the world, no particular way to track them... And then they start doing stunts." Anyone untrained and unaided is more likely to hurt or kill themselves using magic, and internet instructions would have to include instructions on Reinforcement, etc., for this to be a viable possibility.
In the game, with the System Assist, it still takes average people days or weeks to get magic working, and they tend to hurt themselves trying. That holds true with the System Assist making it easier and while they are in a world where they already know that magic demonstrably works, and they may be in immediate danger of dying if they don't learn magic because there are monsters and they need to escape the game. In the real world most of that 1% of 1% would be more likely to give it up after getting hurt, and they have no immediate need for magic in their lives to prompt them otherwise.

I suppose my point here is that the people with the natural willpower, drive, and mental state to make magic work well in the game are also the type of people unlikely to bother with watching the tutorial (since magic doesn't exist as far as they know) and repeatedly trying an unpleasant/harmful activity after being burned once.

Then, if people do start using magic, they've opened themselves up to being scried for by magic use trackers. If they do something big or complicated enough, then they run the risk of being tracked. If they don't then there's little to no risk of exposure.

Fourth problem is with "and they do it on live television". How do they get on live television and practice magecraft? How many people watch that release when it's live? Because it's only live the first time, and after that there can be claims of doctoring, of film edits... and what other news would be going on that would cover this up?
Then how do you prove it wasn't a trick? Prove that the brick wasn't doctored ahead of time to fall apart? Prove that the camera crew weren't in on it all and paid off?

Fifth problem is preventing the M.A. from claiming that it was a trick, the brick was doctored, the camera crew were in on it... If anyone is audacious enough, they can actually bring another (undoctored) brick onto live TV, claim that they doctored it the way they say the first performer did, and crumble it with reinforcement as 'proof'.

Furthermore, the M.A. has resources and ties to companies and political groups across the world. If, prior to the game, Griselda came across magecraft instructions on the internet and mentioned them in passing to Grimlock, what would happen?
1) Grimlock would convince (or if he were more like most magi, hypnotize) her into dropping the subject after she showed them to him.
2) Grimlock would report it to the Magus Association.
3) The Magus Association would bribe, blackmail, or hypnotize people in places of power to shut down the website and hand over information on who put it up.
4) Sic the enforcers on whoever put up the information.
5) Have people keep an eye on the news for a few weeks to see if anyone tries to repeat this. send the enforcers to disappear/hyponotize them and other hired professionals to discredit them if so. If not, no worries.

...
Sorry if this seems aggressive. You actually got me very interested in the idea of how someone would pull this type of thing off, and I just started listing off the problems so that I could move on to figuring out how to get around them. It really is an interesting idea.

Ultimately, though, I think Kayaba's plan has a good chance of working. Technically, it could work now. He could turn the game off, free the several thousand people in it, and it would make a worldwide splash across the news that the victims were free.

Eventually, just out of muscle-memory habit and (maybe) nostalgia, one or two people would try to use the game's magic in the real world. And they would get that familiar feeling and realize that magic is real.

There would still be enough news activity that reports would spread fast, and other survivors would try the same thing and get the same results, and then there would be thousands of people needed to disappear with more news spreading to millions more. The M.A. could probably kill the survivors and fake 'health issues' leftover from being in the game, but even that would be insanely suspicious and people who hadn't been showing off as much could write down what they remembered, teach friends and family, and it would never totally go away no matter what the M.A. did.
 
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