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Falling Iron (IM MCU/WORM)

Iron Man's first patrol

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jwolfe said:
Just as long as he designs it better then he did for Pepper.
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Pfff. That's just some fans being snarky.

Tony Stark believes in mostly functionality.

YuffieK said:
IIRC, the problem with Tony using palladium in the micro ARC reactor is that it generated a neutron flux, which slowly transmuted it into other, much more toxic, heavy metals. Starkium is (presumably) a metastable nuclear isomer of palladium (much like 178m2/72 Hf) that doesn't have that issue.
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There's this cool article that explains it (much to sciency) but basically Palladium was being turned into a form of silver and leaked into his body (which supposedly actually matched the silver poisoning look he had for a while.)
 
YuffieK said:
IIRC, the problem with Tony using palladium in the micro ARC reactor is that it generated a neutron flux, which slowly transmuted it into other, much more toxic, heavy metals. Starkium is (presumably) a metastable nuclear isomer of palladium (much like 178m2/72 Hf) that doesn't have that issue.
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I want to say you're right, because I like the difficult words in your post. You know what? I'm just going to go for it. I support your theory about the molecules that do things.
 
YuffieK said:
IIRC, the problem with Tony using palladium in the micro ARC reactor is that it generated a neutron flux, which slowly transmuted it into other, much more toxic, heavy metals. Starkium is (presumably) a metastable nuclear isomer of palladium (much like 178m2/72 Hf) that doesn't have that issue.
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The problem is that starkium is stated to be an element, not an isomer, and is consistently described as a new element. It's likely a (meta)stable transuranic from the island of stability (the fact that Tony was able to produce is it hax though).
 
Palladium? The others might be slightly toxic, but were in sealed containers at the most.

Palladium is just a metal that is in the platinum metals range.
 
Yog said:
Seems reasonable enough.

On that issue, I forgot to ask one thing: what the hell was PRT doing allowing a minor who didn't have her safety instructions (and didn't sign the appropriate waver) to handle radioactive materials?
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not radioactive, Toxic and in sealed containers.
 
jwolfe said:
Instead of little bug armors Taylor could control untold numbers of drones. She has complete control of all insects in her range so train up her multi-tasking and she can use them as multiple hands to drive and direct untold numbers of remote control combat robots.
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That is actually scary as fuck. Stark made combat drones that she has perfect awareness of.
 
Angelform said:
Even seen what too much blood does to your system?

On a separate note: does Tony know they could heal his life threatening chest injury? I know she told him she could but he had only just regained consciousness at the time. (And is always a bit condescending of the idea anyone can do anything he can't.)
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He only stopped her because he didn't want the excuse for his ARC reactor to go for a walk as they 'study it'.
 
sdarian said:
Huh. I just figured it was something along the lines of needing to cut him open to remove the shrapnel, and they weren't prepared for that as they didn't know he had it.

Although, thinking about it, wouldn't Panacea be able to heal that out? I know she can do some pretty awesome stuff with her power, so I'd assume that she could force the stuff out as she did her healing. Maybe something for Tony to look into later, as regardless of having it in his chest (his reactor), simply removing the danger from the shrapnel means he won't automatically start to die if something happens to his reactor. Like it did in the first movie, he could have kept going instead of lying on the floor dying until someone came to help him.
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Pretty sure that this was what Panacea offered to him (heal the shrapnel out). He didn't go for it because it would still likely leave him unconscious for a time, and with the reactor out of his chest and in someone else's hands. When he has his lab and trusted assistant (who can keep the reactor secure), I'm pretty sure he'll go for it.
sdarian said:
Also, I'm not too sure on how much people are focused on getting the PRT armor suits. Yes they are powerful, and everyone wants them. But I would think that a more lasting improvement would be to start increasing the tech level across the board. Better, faster computers can only help things, and that would allow more people to do more things themselves. Same with a higher base tech across the board. That would help with all of the Tinkers as they would have better starting tools to build with as well. And getting all of that patented and put into production would help with his finances as well. Simply making a better CPU or mother board or Hard Drive.... all the computer companies would pay a lot, more so the better it was then what they currently have. Or have Jarvis (assuming he can) write some programs or an operating system that is better then anything on the market. There are tons of things he could help with besides just making some armor suits for the PRT.
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I agree, but armors provide immediate visible use. They bolster up PRT response teams (who are made of normal humans) very much. They are something that can be used against Endbringers, which is the most important thing in the world, generally.
 
DarkAtlan said:
Ok, I need someone to explain this to me: Why can't people understand tinker-tech in the Worm-verse?

I mean, how hard can it be? You set up a camera by where they work, you record what they do, and the materials they use, then you do what they did. Even if you dont know WHY it works, you know THAT it works. Why can't people just do this in the Worm-verse?
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They can. The issue is maintenance. It's economically non-viable to have to rebuild everything from scratch when something breaks. And normal people don't know how to patch things up to maintain the equipment without rebuilding it from the ground level.
 
DarkAtlan said:
...seriously?

The reason that they can't issue super-high-tech stuff to the PRT/Army/anyone they feel like is because it's EXPENSIVE TO MANTAIN?!? That in a world where they get whole cities wiped out every few months, no-one wants to just PAY for the super-tech?

I think I just lost my enthusiasm for the Worm-verse.
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No. More like the tech items are VERY much blackbox devices to non tinkers as in you can NEVER be sure if youre replicating or repaiting it properly.

The very location of where you're doing building, repairing or modifying can have an effect.
 
DarkAtlan said:
...seriously?

The reason that they can't issue super-high-tech stuff to the PRT/Army/anyone they feel like is because it's EXPENSIVE TO MANTAIN?!? That in a world where they get whole cities wiped out every few months, no-one wants to just PAY for the super-tech?

I think I just lost my enthusiasm for the Worm-verse.
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I'm explaining badly to the point of being wrong.

Here, found the relevant quote:
@ Why tinkers haven't mass marketed:
Shit breaks.
A tinker named Gearboy is commissioned to produce a mechanical battlesuit for the army, ok. That's doable. But if the suit breaks down, or if it gets normal wear and tear, there's really only one person who understands it well enough to fix it (beyond surface damage). The tinker who made it. Kid Win mentions, when modifying the earbud with Armsmaster's lie detector, that anything he does will naturally be less elegant and the work will suffer for it. The same applies for anything in regular use with non-tinkers. The soldiers won't know how to fix up the suit. So it gets damaged: hole in the chest. Repair team checks there's no damage to internal components, patch up the hole with a metal plate welded in place like they might with a vehicle, only to find that the suit's overheating and it's walking funny. They call up the tinker, but he's elbow deep in another job. They resign themselves to having the suit deployed for no more than an hour at a time.
They start talking about how to take care of the thing. An argument erupts among squad members about whether to oil the joints or not. One group says they should take care of an expensive machine, the other side of the debate says that the last time they tampered with it stuff started to go wrong. They decide to oil it. More stuff goes wrong. The systems in the arms and legs that were oiled aren't as responsive. It feels clumsy now. They decide not to oil it any more just in case, and more stuff goes wrong. The thing's basically unusable now, and they've had it only a week, with only one major confrontation.
Gearboy gets called in to handle the fix, and he goes ballistic.
The patch-up job threw the system out of balance. The gyros are supposed to compensate, but the welding job's thrown off the center of balance! Leave it that way, and the gyros start to wear down as the suit walks over miles, the system's forced to rely on the tilt compensators, which are typically used short term for lifting/carrying objects, but overuse of those causes the thing to overheat.
If the tinker were in the driver's seat, it could be adjusted or vented, but the clueless morons who are piloting it don't have a clue. Not that he can call them morons to their faces. He does want to keep his job.
And hell, that was just the patch-up job. What the hell were they thinking, using a mineral oil? Has to be synthetic, with threads of gold for the parts closest to the vents, to maintain conductivity. No wonder the hands don't work.
The tinker knows he could write a massive user manual, explaining everything, but he can't cover every eventuality. Not every climate nor every possible scenario, or what might happen if someone is forced to improvise a solution.
So he grumbles, tells them to call the next time they want to do anything to the suit. And he secretly bemoans the fact that he sold his stuff for ignorants to use on any kind of consistent basis.
An analogy, if you will: put a desktop computer in front of someone from the Victorian age. You have two hours to teach them what they need to know. Can you really cover everything that they need to know for regular use? It's really very much the same. You just know they're going to ask for help at some point, no matter how much you try to cover in a half hour, hour-long or two-hour tutorial session. Now picture a scenario where you mass produced computers and there's a thousand Victorian-era people using the systems, and you're the only one who really understands the things, you're the only one who can fix stuff if they screw it up, the only one who can reinstall an OS or tell a locked up system from a nonresponsive keyboard.
It's very much the same for a tinker.
AKA: why more stuff isn't seen on the market.
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gladiusone said:
Okay, I was thinking that it was more along the lines of Godlike RPG 'Goldberg Science', where the item is just a focus for the Talent's power. (Ie, the raygun doesn't actually produce plasma, it's the Talent's power manifesting through the raygun. To anyone else, it'd be a fancy, complex device with parts that make no sense to anyone but the Talent ...) Still, I've only just started reading, so I'm still learning.
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Without spoilering anything I can only tell you that you are wrong. The explanation of how Tinker powers work is too spoilerish though.
 
chrnno said:
Because it is not maintenance costs at all the problem, I have already said what they are. People have this bizarre view of reverse-engineering that apparently requires you only to look at something to build it.
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Yes, which is why Tony Stark actually really understanding his work is so important. And because he hands off the scut work to JARVIS.

Those two points together are really the game changer. Dragon sort of does this, but she's still a Tinker and doe not always understand what she's building or taking apart.
 
There is a canon explanation for why Tinkertech can do what it does; it's alien technology that's ridiculously super-advanced.
 
Not necessarily; if it was just putting together pre-existing parts that might work, but Tinker tech requires tuning. Delicate work. Things done that will vary from individual device to individual device, even they're otherwise identical. Plus, they work off of technology that doesn't necessarily or even likely follow human logic or thought or reasoning patterns; in other words, a lot of stages in the construction of Tinkertech likely would make no intuitive sense to anyone watching. Put together, it dramatically increases the difficulty of figuring out how to replicate it or work out how the technology works, even if you watch and record every step. Not to mention that there's still the major barrier of maintenance- Tinkertech is delicate enough that unless you know exactly what you're doing (which would require a multi-hundred page manual for a simple gun, if you're not the Tinker) you're more likely to break it than fix it/keep it operating.
 
Also, Wildbow has stated that Tinkertech operates from extradimensional power sources. It's very likely that Tinkers are minor reality warpers. Salt, electricity, and antifreeze can't substitute for blood no matter how perfectly you copy Bonesaw's methods, because she is also pulling on things from another dimension in order to turn those ingredients into a useful form.

Also, the idea of "Reverse Engineering" is kind of silly. It works when you already understand all the principles of the object in question, or at least have a general idea, but it's kind of hard to pull off if you have no idea how the device does what it does, and all the critical components aren't even in this dimension.
 
Yog said:
Could you give me a quote? I don't remember that.
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I looked a little bit and I couldn't find it, but it was basically Wildbow saying that Tinkers are capable of looking around a corner no one else sees or can touch to get power sources for their tech. It's in one of the comments, not in any of Arc 4 or Arc 5, but I don't have any more time to look for it right now. Maybe later tonight.
 
hpackrat said:
On another note, does anyone know the time frame between post-Avengers & pre-IM3? He went from the Mk7 to the Mk42 in a relatively short amount of time & it would give us a good way to determine how quickly he can design, develop & build in a lab as oppose to an assembly line or factory.
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A bit over 1 year, 7 months.

It should be mentioned that none of the Iron Legion(including XLII) were as powerful as the Mark VII overall. He sacrificed quality for quantity and versatility.

Which is why they kept on being broken.
 
The Unicorn said:
As I noted you would, initially at least get very low success rates, but given how effective some Tinkertech is it would be worth the effort even disregarding everything you'd learn from the process.

And we're back to the maintenance issue which I already addressed.
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The problem with this is, the more useful/advanced the tech is? The harder it is likely to be to understand or reproduce. The simple fact is, Tinkertech is advanced/complicated/hard to understand/so dependent upon fine tolerances that mass production does not work. Every piece needs fine calibration- sort of like tuning up a car- otherwise it will either not function, or not function at anywhere near the level it should (which would remove most of the usefulness of it). And without an understanding of how the tech works, or a Tinker's personal attention, you cannot get that.

You... didn't really address the maintenance thing, actually (assuming I've found the right post); you just said:
The maintenance issue was raised as an "explanation" for why you can't simply film everything the Tinker does and then have people follow him step by step. Granted even with "monkey see, monkey do" you'd still get very low success rate but you would get some successes and those could be mass produced, and you'd learn from the failures.
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The problem with this is, every single different thing which goes wrong would require a different solution, and with Tinkertech the number of things that can go wrong is HUGE- the amount of time and effort you'd need to put in to learning how to keep (say) a suit of power armour active would render it completely non-cost-effective, and you'd also have to train the users and technicians to be able to successfully diagnose the problems, not just use the solutions. And whilst Tinkertech is useful, it's not useful enough to justify the level of resource expenditure that that would require.
 
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