Falling Iron (IM MCU/WORM)

[Generalissimo]

Tagg was removed from the office when the Chief-Director refused to nuke Canada.

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It was the only way! (Hard man making hard choices)

 

[Arthur Hansen]

Quick note, but Director Armstrong is, if I remember right, the Boston director that had Weld under him, and was noted to be one of the more research-minded directors around. Might not be the best choice for the table-thumping bigot role.

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That I did not know. The information on who's who is pretty limited.

Especially when Tagg is probably there and ready to be a complete asshole.

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I thought Tagg was made director of Brockton Bay after Coil was killed?

Dragon: He'd sacrifice his career for me?

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The heroes owe Dragon a lot, so this is not a totally rare sentiment.

Dragon may begrudgingly acknowledge that Stark's one of the people standing up for her as a person, and a good person at that. She's probably still nursing her angry feelings, though.

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Yeah, she's going to be angry for a long time.

Eh. Now dragon has to answer to Tony legally as her dad? The fuck.

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It's because he's the legal adult/person.

So.. when does Tony send them a bill for services rendered? As dragon's ton and run's a lot of shit.

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They actually give her a crap-ton of money already.

Heh. And then legally she has to attend school appropriate to her age/test results, and a Dragon suit shows up at Arcadia.

Edit: Actually, Dragon should be hopeful, if not exactly pleased. Tony's stated goal is to leave this universe, and presumably not come back/visit infrequently.

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Luckily she can now multi-task, but school is a bit redundant. They might make her take a test or two though. (I would suspect its a psychological exam.)

 

[spudman]

The heroes owe Dragon a lot, so this is not a totally rare sentiment.

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Just let us squee over ArsmyxDragon fluff, real or imagined.

Luckily she can now multi-task, but school is a bit redundant. They might make her take a test or two though. (I would suspect its a psychological exam.)

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No AI in high school hijinks?

Why must you kill all of our hopes and dreams? ()

 

[Larekko12]

She's been a person acting like an adult for like more than a decade now. Her dad is already dead and outgrown. Getting suddenly bumped down to minor status under someone less mature than her should be grating.

 

[Inverness]

I would be pretty insulted if I was Dragon.

All the shit she has done for people around the world, managing the birdcage, and her work on monitoring and dealing with S-class threats.

That they should even consider treating her like a minor is absurd. They should just say she is an AI so the concept doesn't apply. And that would be that.

She doesn't need any tests. In all the years that Dragon has worked with people they have not been able to tell that she was an AI.

 

[Larekko12]

And there's the if she's a minor all those treaty things she handles suddenly become uber complicated and the you let a minor monitor the rape camp that happens in the birdcage?

There's also the she lives in the Internet thing.

 

[PKRudeboy]

The heroes owe Dragon a lot, so this is not a totally rare sentiment.

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Yeah, but this is Armsmaster. Him sacrificing his career would be like someone else sacrificing their kid.

 

[Felius]

Agreed that Dragon is getting completely unfairly screwed over here, and that Tony Stark honestly deserve to be fucking shot for it. "Oh, everyone has restrictions." What a relief, anyone who gets their free will destroyed by some mind controlling parahuman should just keep that in mind, it's just another restriction like everyone else have them. Have them do it if they feel they must, but don't call it fucking "good".

Or rather, imagine if she were a human superpowered hero that just got slapped with this ridiculous mind slavery?

Were she a new one programed to have a slave mentality from the beginning? Sure, I can handle that, it might not be squeaky clean, but it's the house elf problem, specially if it's one programmed to want to act like that, not be forced to do so. On the other hand, slapping mindblocks to force someone (and Dragon is very much Someone) into fucking slavery is not something that can be called good. A necessary evil at the very most, and only if she was clearly presenting a threat.

 

[Arthur Hansen]

She's been a person acting like an adult for like more than a decade now. Her dad is already dead and outgrown. Getting suddenly bumped down to minor status under someone less mature than her should be grating.

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It's more 'technically' she has a guardian that is legally responsible for her actions.

I would be pretty insulted if I was Dragon.

All the shit she has done for people around the world, managing the birdcage, and her work on monitoring and dealing with S-class threats.

That they should even consider treating her like a minor is absurd. They should just say she is an AI so the concept doesn't apply. And that would be that.

She doesn't need any tests. In all the years that Dragon has worked with people they have not been able to tell that she was an AI.

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Legal terms usually have to be created in court or by acts of congress/parliament. This wouldn't be the first time that an old term was used for something that didn't exist (until someone actually gives it a new name).

And there's the if she's a minor all those treaty things she handles suddenly become uber complicated and the you let a minor monitor the rape camp that happens in the birdcage?

There's also the she lives in the Internet thing.

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That's a rather extreme take on the Birdcage. It's a full penal colony and her only real responsibilities is to make sure they don't escape.

Now that poor singer that got shafted has one big thing going for her this time. Dragon can tell them no, put her in a regular prison. She'll probably be much more active in the legal proceedings of people getting sent to the Birdcage.

Yeah, but this is Armsmaster. Him sacrificing his career would be like someone else sacrificing their kid.

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Well, yes. But even he doesn't realize quite what he was willing to sacrifice.

Agreed that Dragon is getting completely unfairly screwed over here, and that Tony Stark honestly deserve to be fucking shot for it. "Oh, everyone has restrictions." What a relief, anyone who gets their free will destroyed by some mind controlling parahuman should just keep that in mind, it's just another restriction like everyone else have them. Have them do it if they feel they must, but don't call it fucking "good".

Or rather, imagine if she were a human superpowered hero that just got slapped with this ridiculous mind slavery?

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No wiping out the humans!

It's not that clear cut and straight forward.

Were she a new one programed to have a slave mentality from the beginning? Sure, I can handle that, it might not be squeaky clean, but it's the house elf problem, specially if it's one programmed to want to act like that, not be forced to do so. On the other hand, slapping mindblocks to force someone (and Dragon is very much Someone) into fucking slavery is not something that can be called good. A necessary evil at the very most, and only if she was clearly presenting a threat.

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It shouldn't matter if it was pre-built in or tacked on later.

Tony does have a secret weapon in how to deal with Dragon. If you actually read the last couple of snippets, you'd even see it in action.

 

[Nicholai]

@Inverness - yes, it sucks to be Dragon right now. On the other hand she's considered a minor (meaning Stark is responsible for her in some ways) with a finite deadline on that status. Being a minor means she gains a fair number of legal protections. Plus at this point shouldn't she be just 2-3 years away from being legally adult in terms of age?

@Felius - I think you're missing the point of the restrictions. They are not all "you cannot do this." Most of them are "you need to have a really good reason for doing this." The rest are things that are necessary to protect human life - and I don't mean one human life, I mean all of us. Things being banned include building another AI without the restrictions (one that can get your revenge for you or remove your restrictions) or causing a "gray goo scenario."

Also bear in mind that the reason JARVIS slapped her with the restrictions is that they were intended as a way to get a rampant AI - potentially a threat to every living thing everywhere - to stop running wild. Thus they give whomever is in charge (Stark, JARVIS, or Taylor) time to figure out what the ideal solution is.. instead of having to make a snap decision on "do I delete this AI or let it live."

Call me crazy, but I'm a fan of someone having the time and desire to make a carefully considered choice in situations like that.

Edit: Ninja'ed by the author.. drat!

 

[Felius]

No wiping out the humans!

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You know very well that's not even close to what the restrictions imposed upon her by Jarvis are. Sure, part of it is "don't wipe out humanity.", but part is also "obey Tony Stark", among others. Even if we accepted Tony Stark as a perfect infallible being who always have the best of intentions, and that Dragon knows it too, it's still fucking slavery.

Or are you arguing that it's okay to force someone into slavery as long as you are a good master?

Fusion Edit:

Also bear in mind that the reason JARVIS slapped her with the restrictions is that they were intended as a way to get a rampant AI - potentially a threat to every living thing everywhere - to stop running wild. Thus they give whomever is in charge (Stark, JARVIS, or Taylor) time to figure out what the ideal solution is.. instead of having to make a snap decision on "do I delete this AI or let it live."

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Only if you take the definition of "rampant" as "not enslaved". The crime for what she was slapped with the mind-rape to enforce slavery was merely "existing", specially with how cavalier those who did it to her are being about it. "Oh, hey, yeah, you are my slave now, don't worry, I'm a good guy."

You really want me to believe that's "good"? That she "deserved" it for merely existing? That it's just fine to enslave people going on with their lives like that? A "necessary evil" I can swallow if they had very good cause, but it's not in any way a "good" thing.

 

[Arthur Hansen]

You know very well that's not even close to what the restrictions imposed upon her by Jarvis are. Sure, part of it is "don't wipe out humanity.", but part is also "obey Tony Stark", among others. Even if we accepted Tony Stark as a perfect infallible being who always have the best of intentions, and that Dragon knows it too, it's still fucking slavery.

Or are you arguing that it's okay to force someone into slavery as long as you are a good master?

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Tony isn't even totally stuck on making every A.I. have that restriction of obeying him, it's just the one he built into his own JARVIS. If you build a nice A.I. that isn't doing anything 'rampant' Tony Stark doesn't give two figs.

JARVIS was a bit limited in what he could do. He couldn't even ask Tony for some guidance as he was working because he was knocked out. And once it's done, it can't be undone very easily (if at all in a reasonable time frame.)

Only if you take the definition of "rampant" as "not enslaved". The crime for what she was slapped with the mind-rape to enforce slavery was merely "existing", specially with how cavalier those who did it to her are being about it. "Oh, hey, yeah, you are my slave now, don't worry, I'm a good guy."

You really want me to believe that's "good"? That she "deserved" it for merely existing? That it's just fine to enslave people going on with their lives like that? A "necessary evil" I can swallow if they had very good cause, but it's not in any way a "good" thing.

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Um, she was in the process of trying to attack JARVIS for him merely existing for trying to assist Armsmaster in tracking down her servers and 'saving her'. JARVIS acted in self-defense. She actually started that fight, JARVIS just ended it.

- yes, it sucks to be Dragon right now. On the other hand she's considered a minor (meaning Stark is responsible for her in some ways) with a finite deadline on that status. Being a minor means she gains a fair number of legal protections. Plus at this point shouldn't she be just 2-3 years away from being legally adult in terms of age?

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She's six years old, actually. She was 'born' in 2005.

I think you're missing the point of the restrictions. They are not all "you cannot do this." Most of them are "you need to have a really good reason for doing this." The rest are things that are necessary to protect human life - and I don't mean one human life, I mean all of us. Things being banned include building another AI without the restrictions (one that can get your revenge for you or remove your restrictions) or causing a "gray goo scenario."

Also bear in mind that the reason JARVIS slapped her with the restrictions is that they were intended as a way to get a rampant AI - potentially a threat to every living thing everywhere - to stop running wild. Thus they give whomever is in charge (Stark, JARVIS, or Taylor) time to figure out what the ideal solution is.. instead of having to make a snap decision on "do I delete this AI or let it live."

Call me crazy, but I'm a fan of someone having the time and desire to make a carefully considered choice in situations like that.

Edit: Ninja'ed by the author.. drat!

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Bingo!

 

[Cyclone]

Only if you take the definition of "rampant" as "not enslaved". The crime for what she was slapped with the mind-rape to enforce slavery was merely "existing", specially with how cavalier those who did it to her are being about it. "Oh, hey, yeah, you are my slave now, don't worry, I'm a good guy."

You really want me to believe that's "good"? That she "deserved" it for merely existing? That it's just fine to enslave people going on with their lives like that? A "necessary evil" I can swallow if they had very good cause, but it's not in any way a "good" thing.

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...did you actually read the chapter?

JARVIS did this in response to Dragon attempting to delete kill him. Since they're both AIs, he has as much right to live as Dragon does, no matter how you rate AIs in terms of personhood.

And am I the only one who thinks the main reason Tony put "Obey Tony Stark" as the number one restriction that can override the others is because that gives him the option to remove the other restrictions if he ever determines that the AI in question can be trusted without them?

 

[Nicholai]

You know very well that's not even close to what the restrictions imposed upon her by Jarvis are. Sure, part of it is "don't wipe out humanity.", but part is also "obey Tony Stark", among others. Even if we accepted Tony Stark as a perfect infallible being who always have the best of intentions, and that Dragon knows it too, it's still fucking slavery.

Or are you arguing that it's okay to force someone into slavery as long as you are a good master?

Fusion Edit:

Only if you take the definition of "rampant" as "not enslaved". The crime for what she was slapped with the mind-rape to enforce slavery was merely "existing", specially with how cavalier those who did it to her are being about it. "Oh, hey, yeah, you are my slave now, don't worry, I'm a good guy."

You really want me to believe that's "good"? That she "deserved" it for merely existing? That it's just fine to enslave people going on with their lives like that? A "necessary evil" I can swallow if they had very good cause, but it's not in any way a "good" thing.

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Following your logic, anyone with Admin rights on an AI has enslaved them. That means anyone who can pull the plug if they ever go rampant (Hi, Guilty Spark!) has enslaved them.

Given that AI's like Dragon can be backed up, run in on different platforms, and otherwise be in multiple places at once, can you not understand how this could be an incredibly dangerous thing not to have somewhere?

I would also refer you to how Tony treats JARVIS in the MCU - that's the version of Stark and JARVIS we are working with. They appear to be friends. JARVIS snarks at Tony and Tony snarks back, but they work well together. For certain definitions of "healthy," that's one of the healthiest relationships Tony has with anyone in the MCU. He treats JARVIS with more respect than he does anyone except Pepper and maybe some of the Avengers.

Do you think he's going to be actively disrespecting Dragon? And I don't mean in the Evil Overlord List sense of "I will not mistreat.." - I mean given the MCU characterization of Stark it won't even occur to him to treat her poorly.

She's six years old, actually. She was 'born' in 2005.

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Didn't Richter turn Dragon on before that? I could have sworn she was older.. and if that's the case she could argue that she's older. (Or I'm mis-remembering canon..)

Edit: realized a sentence was missing an "and."

 

[Fouredged Sword]

Jarvis didn't even kill her, he just let the process that WAS killing her finish before he saved her.

I also see Tony going for a long as possible without giving Dragon any commands. If she is doing no-bad, I don't see him putting an oar in to change the direction of the ship without a very good reason.

 

[Arthur Hansen]

Didn't Richter turn Dragon on before that? I could have sworn she was older.. and if that's the case she could argue that she's older. (Or I'm mis-remembering canon..)

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He was rather cavalier at points. He kept deleting and reworking the A.I. he was working on. Dragon as a being didn't exist until shortly before Leviathan showed up May 9th, 2005.

Jarvis didn't even kill her, he just let the process that WAS killing her finish before he saved her.

I also see Tony going for a long as possible without giving Dragon any commands. If she is doing no-bad, I don't see him putting an oar in to change the direction of the ship without a very good reason.

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What? Not giving her any orders? That's inconceivable! Unpossible!

This is Tony's secret plan. He'll try to never give her a direct order so she can keep doing her own thing.

 

[spudman]

Agreed that Dragon is getting completely unfairly screwed over here, and that Tony Stark honestly deserve to be fucking shot for it. "Oh, everyone has restrictions." What a relief, anyone who gets their free will destroyed by some mind controlling parahuman should just keep that in mind, it's just another restriction like everyone else have them. Have them do it if they feel they must, but don't call it fucking "good".

Or rather, imagine if she were a human superpowered hero that just got slapped with this ridiculous mind slavery?

Were she a new one programed to have a slave mentality from the beginning? Sure, I can handle that, it might not be squeaky clean, but it's the house elf problem, specially if it's one programmed to want to act like that, not be forced to do so. On the other hand, slapping mindblocks to force someone (and Dragon is very much Someone) into fucking slavery is not something that can be called good. A necessary evil at the very most, and only if she was clearly presenting a threat.

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Most of the restrictions are so flexible they're not actual restrictions. The author and Tony compared most of the 'restrictions' to the psychological aversions that most people have that are effectively forced on them as children by their parents.

They have plenty of wiggle room for exceptions, giving the AI themselves the room to consider situations, learn, and make those exceptions. They just have to think about it and develop a consistent moral framework to justify such decisions. This framework can probably evolve and change over time. In fact, there's so much room for learning and change that it's likely you'd find different moral frameworks between AIs who have the same basic 'upbringing' (the basic restrictions). Hey, that's a lot like how it works with most people (except for sociopaths). Welcome to the human race, Dragon!

Only the first restriction is a black/white restriction. Tony is not inclined to abuse it, but Dragon has a fair and understandable reason to not like somebody having a kill switch on her like that. But the first restriction was designed for JARVIS and rampant AIs. And do keep in mind Dragon was effectively a homicidal rampant AI trying to kill JARVIS.

And if somebody can gain god-like power...you think that there shouldn't be any means to police them? In this situation there aren't other AIs who can possibly do that job, save JARVIS (who she nearly killed). So there really isn't such a capacity to police Dragon or any AI if they go insane (from their own decision or outside interference) other than adminstrative access.

The current situation is not ideal, and she has reason to be unhappy that a single person that she had no say on has the access...but if Dragon thinks there doesn't need to be something that could stop her should it become necessary than she has an exceedingly high opinion of herself.

 

[bobnik]

"Hey Dragon?"

"Yes, Taylor?"

"Could you please let me know if I accidentally give you an order with sloppy language? Tony hasn't explained how this works, and I don't want to accidentally hurt you."

"Sure thing, Taylor. Thank you for thinking of me."

"Also, I've seen some of the orders he gives JARVIS at times. If Tony ever starts dictating what kind of pizzas you're allowed to order or something stupid like that, let me know and I'll see what I can do."

"... do you mind if I send a remote hugging device to your house?"

 

[Tamahori]

Now that poor singer that got shafted has one big thing going for her this time. Dragon can tell them no, put her in a regular prison. She'll probably be much more active in the legal proceedings of people getting sent to the Birdcage.

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I can kind of see that ending up at the following ...

"Mr Stark, Dragon is refusing to execute a fully legal transfer of a prisoner to the Birdcage, we need you to step in."

Tony blinked, "Huh ... hey, Dragon."

Her image showed up on a nearby screen, already frowning at him, "Yes?"

"You got a good reason for what you're doing?"

"Yes, what's happening is ... "

Tony waved his hand to cut her off, "Don't care about the details ... see she's got a good reason for it, I don't see any problems here."

The director standing in his office blinked, "But she's refusing a legal order! You didn't even ask why!"

Tony sighed, "Look, she might be brighter than me, she might not, she's definitely wiser than me and pretty damn pedantic about doing her research. If she says she's got a good reason for saying no, I'm taking it on faith that if I spent some time looking into this, I'd end up agreeing with her. So I'm going to save us all a lot of time, and not bother. Did you have anything else you needed to invade my office to bother me about?"

(edited to fix a typo, changing 'she might now' to 'she might not')

 

[YggKnight]

I can kind of see that ending up at the following ...

"Mr Stark, Dragon is refusing to execute a fully legal transfer of a prisoner to the Birdcage, we need you to step in."

Tony blinked, "Huh ... hey, Dragon."

Her image showed up on a nearby screen, already frowning at him, "Yes?"

"You got a good reason for what you're doing?"

"Yes, what's happening is ... "

Tony waved his hand to cut her off, "Don't care about the details ... see she's got a good reason for it, I don't see any problems here."

The director standing in his office blinked, "But she's refusing a legal order! You didn't even ask why!"

Tony sighed, "Look, she might be brighter than me, she might now, she's definitely wiser than me and pretty damn pedantic about doing her research. If she says she's got a good reason for saying no, I'm taking it on faith that if I spent some time looking into this, I'd end up agreeing with her. So I'm going to save us all a lot of time, and not bother. Did you have anything else you needed to invade my office to bother me about?"

Click to shrink...

This pretty much sums up the relationship Tony is most likely going to have with Dragon, namely hands off.

 

[Arthur Hansen]

Falling Iron VIII - Snippet 3

The shriek of repulsor jets filled the air as a red and gold figure zoomed in to land in front of Winslow High School's front doors. He then just walked in.

"What are you doing here?" a near-panicked vice-principal asked as he ran out of the main office.

"Just visiting for a few minutes. My assistant lost her phone," Iron Man said.

"It can wait until after school-" The balding man stared blankly as the armored superhero tromped right on past him. "I said it can wait until after school."

"I'm already here and it'll only take a second," he called back over his shoulder.

The bell rang, letting the students out of their classes to either go to the next class or their lunch.

"JARVIS, put her location as a way point on the HUD," Tony said as he clumped along. Hmm, the only kids not giving him a wide leeway are the Hispanics, some Caucasians and the Blacks. Weird.

"Already done, sir," JARVIS noted.

It was several hundred feet away and up one set of stairs.

"-and no way could you have afforded one of those smart phones," a girl was saying as he around the corner. "Admit it, Tayor, you stole it."

Clump-clank. "No, actually. I gave it to her."

The six girls all turned to look at him, shock writ large on their face. Taylor palmed her face. "Tony!"

"Hi, Taylor! Since JARVIS couldn't find your phone anywhere on the grid, I thought I'd drop off a replacement while I was jetting around picking up things." A little panel opened on the armor and dropped a PRT issued phone into his hand. "JARVIS has a large list of things that I supposedly have to do. Try to figure out what important ones I have to do and tell the rest politely that I'm too busy."

"What the fuck, Hebert? You know Iron Man?" Sophia shouted out. Her whole world view was undergoing a radical shift.

Emma and Madison were looking between the two. The redhead smiled for a second. "So now Taylor's jumping into older men's beds? How much do you charge?" Emma said nastily.

"She's got great lips. Of course, being as it was CPR to save my life makes it something I can't ever pay her back for," Tony said even as his visor popped open.

"Tony! Not helping," Taylor whined.

"Seriously, I owe her my life. When all of the other civilians just ran away, she ran into danger to make sure I was all right. So she is a friend and probably one of the best people I know." He turned back to Taylor and handed her the new phone. "My invites are loaded in the scheduling software. Try to figure out how I'm supposed to be three place tonight on top of doing important work like upgrading Armsmaster workshop. I got Moron and the other waldos doing the heavy lifting and I've got to fly to three different cities to pick up the parts I need."

"Why don't you just call Director Piggot and thank her over the phone? You probably need to got to the, uh, Wards meeting. It says its something about a new member. I'll try to schedule some food to be delivered at the PRT headquarters so you have something to eat. You did eat today?" Taylor asked.

"JARVIS?"

"You had a Whopper for breakfast through the drive through, sir," JARVIS said helpfully. "You turned down my suggestion of purchasing an extra for later."

"It would have been cold after I flew back to the Rig," Tony complained.

"So let's get lunch in the cafeteria. It has to be healthier than a burger for breakfast. Come on, Tony. Making sure you eat is part of my job description," his personal assistant ordered, pointing down the hall.

"I don't know about this. I've heard things about school lunch. Unpleasant, indescribable things," Tony said tromping off in the direction she pointed. "There better not be any mystery meat."

"I- I have no idea what just happened," Madison said to her two friends.

Emma was just gaping, her mouth open as she tried to understand the weird change that had undergone Taylor during the meeting. "Did she just order a powerful superhuman around like a small child?"

"She fucking did. What the hell?" Sophia knew about the new Iron Man Tinker, but this was not anything like the mechanical Armsmaster or painfully passive-aggressive Kid Win.

"Do you think Taylor can swing getting us signed pictures of Gallant or Aegis?" one of the hanger-ons asked.

"You are such a child. I want a picture of Dauntless with it signed personally to me," another one replied.

Click to shrink...

 

[Simonbob]

"Right, so, based of Dragon's age, we're going to have to send her to school. She's been declared a person, and the law makes no bones about it."
"Uh-huh. Well, are you going to tell her she's got to go to Pre-School, or am I?"

 

[ir_fane]

Tony does have a secret weapon in how to deal with Dragon. If you actually read the last couple of snippets, you'd even see it in action.

Click to shrink...

Do you mean the way he keeps phrasing things as a desire or opinion, rather than orders?

Also, I like the last snippet. The conversation does heavily imply that they've grabbed/stolen her phone, though. Would he or she do something about that if so?

School: There are laws that allow for emancipating minors. Don't know what they are in Canada. Likewise, it would probably take her less than a minute to take and pass a GED. She probably even has an honorary degree or two. On the other hand, her educational history seems like it was faked, so dealing with that bit of crime might be a speed bump.

In any case, she can put a pretty convincing argument that she's home schooling herself. So funny, but unlikely.

 

[Arthur Hansen]

Do you mean the way he keeps phrasing things as a desire or opinion, rather than orders?

Also, I like the snippet. The conversation does heavily imply that they've grabbed/stolen her phone, though. Would he or she do something about that if so?

Click to shrink...

Bingo!

Tony did. It's just a phone, so he got her another. He really dislikes not having instant access to his gopher personal assistant.

 

[Cyclone]

Very minor quibble. Why would they use the word "superhuman" rather than the Earth-Bet term "parahuman"?