*sweatdrop* Guys, the characterization of a secondary White or Black affinity isn't anywhere near extreme enough to warrant the arguments being thrown around here. Heck, even if this was a choice for primary affinity—which it isn't—White mage doesn't equal perfect little paladin, and Black mage doesn't equal sadistic amoral warlock. People are not colors. Please just vote for whatever mana color you'd rather see be used in the story.

I like Green/Black because of the mana generation possibilities, especially with witches around to act as a power source, but if you'd rather see Green/White minion buff that's fine too.
 
Of course ethical black mages tend to be scavengers. They don't cause suffering, but they make sure that it doesn't go to waste.
 
*sweatdrop* Guys, the characterization of a secondary White or Black affinity isn't anywhere near extreme enough to warrant the arguments being thrown around here. Heck, even if this was a choice for primary affinity—which it isn't—White mage doesn't equal perfect little paladin, and Black mage doesn't equal sadistic amoral warlock. People are not colors. Please just vote for whatever mana color you'd rather see be used in the story.

I like Green/Black because of the mana generation possibilities, especially with witches around to act as a power source, but if you'd rather see Green/White minion buff that's fine too.

One: On my end, at least, I was using the actual write-ups for the characters as the basis for my assessment. Those aren't assumptions based on affinity; they are conclusions based on how the characters thinks within their descriptions. Don't just vote for whatever color whose powers you'd rather see, because the characters of each color have their own clear personalities already apparent in the original post. Take that into account, too.

Two: At this point it's not really the characters that are being talked about here; it's SV. Which... yeah, I participated in PMAS for a while, followed it for a while after. At first I was roughly fine with either Black or White winning, even if I'd prefer White, but the more I think about how Black's abilities mirror Sabrina's, the less enthusiastic I am about Black winning. :/
 
TL;DR: If this were a huge choice between good and evil, I'd be disappointing half the players in one go. Your primary color is still Green, the PC won't be even remotely close to one of the extremes on the monstrously evil / saintly good scale, and you're just picking your secondary.


You see this? Every single time this comes up, we will have to actively justify the expense of an "extra" mote or two so we aren't enslaving someone's soul.

Actually, even ignoring the amorality of it, the PC has seen enough movies to know how enslaving souls ends. She's perfectly OK with the more expensive version. A better example might've been using personal information to blackmail someone into compliance vs using it to help them sort their lives out.

I'd also have a rather tighter hand on the reins than some examples of quests out there simply because somewhat amoral =/= evil. She's willing to take certain iffy actions. That doesn't mean she wants to.


There isn't some tiny pool of "evil people" that stay quiet and good except when a suitable quest pops up and then they all pile on to it. No, it's much more like real life. There are horrible people everywhere and they are continually trying to ruin everything we love.

So uh, I get you've had some bad experiences, but you kinda ended up insulting a bunch of other people under the mantle of "horrible people" in one go. There might be a relationship between such actions in gaming and being a right bastard IRL, but it's by no means a 100% conversion rate (until you start to get into some extremely messed up stuff, but I wouldn't write that anyway).

There's a difference between performing amoral actions in fiction and doing so in real life. Take my brother, for example. He's a pretty good guy IRL, but he always gravitates toward the evil factions and actions in gaming simply because he doesn't get to do it as often (in the sense of it being different and thus interesting, not filling a quota). A similar example can be found in Monopoly: being an utterly merciless corporate overlord in that does not mean you dislike those you've decided to withhold mercy from.



To be clear, Green/Black would not be Edgelord Simulator (PMMM/MTG edition). She has much fewer inhibitions than most other people, but she'd try to be a sensible (anti)hero, not a villain. If giving people what they want is more effective than threatening them with what they don't, which she expect it often will be, then she'll go that route.

Similarly, Green/White isn't going to be an uncompromising bastion of pure purity. She wants allies, but ones she likes. In her mind, having a hard life isn't a license to be a bitch to others and she doesn't intend to waste time on people who are.

Finally, Black or White are your secondary colors, not your primary. These arguments are getting much more heated than they need to be.
 
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I'm not sure why people keep implicitly putting White in the saintly box, by the way. People are going out of their way to dispute Black being evil, yet somehow White still has to be saintly?
Me either.

White has a tendency to make moral judgements. It has no tendency to be right about them. (Honestly, I feel it has a tendency to be wrong about them. But I won't actually try to argue that.)
You see this? Every single time this comes up, we will have to actively justify the expense of an "extra" mote or two so we aren't enslaving someone's soul.
This is a bad example.

From their other quests, I can tell that Alivaril keeps characters from doing OOC things quite well, and the opening post makes quite clear that she does have things she won't do (without extremely good reason). While I have a very different view of souls than you clearly do, this should fall in that category.

The idea of it coming up at some point is perfectly plausible, but every time? Maybe if there's one person who just keeps bringing it up every vote or something.

As has been evinced, the idea of witching out enemy MGs is a much more likely thing to keep coming up. Also, significantly more horrible, at least by my standards.
*sweatdrop* Guys, the characterization of a secondary White or Black affinity isn't anywhere near extreme enough to warrant the arguments being thrown around here. Heck, even if this was a choice for primary affinity—which it isn't—White mage doesn't equal perfect little paladin, and Black mage doesn't equal sadistic amoral warlock. People are not colors. Please just vote for whatever mana color you'd rather see be used in the story.

I like Green/Black because of the mana generation possibilities, especially with witches around to act as a power source, but if you'd rather see Green/White minion buff that's fine too.
I think this is my favorite comment so far. Thank you.

EDIT: Second-favorite. You've been displaced by Alivaril.
 
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Ah, right. To preempt the inevitable argument(s) over doing so: You will never be able to auto-Witch someone with magic. Excessive verbal psychological warfare may contribute, but you'll never be able to turn people into eldritch abominations on command.

Relevant:
you're not going to kill or torture someone just because it helps your goals,
 
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this will only come up on MGs that need to be killed anyway.
and most likely witching them out will not be the most effective way to kill them.
Yes we are likely to use a green method most times.

Either buff ourselves and mucsle wizard or send in the monsters. Black means that if said monsters are killed it will not be in vain.

Edit: Ninja
 
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TL;DR: If this were a huge choice between good and evil, I'd be disappointing half the players in one go. Your primary color is still Green, the PC won't be even remotely close to one of the extremes on the monstrously evil / saintly good scale, and you're just picking your secondary.

(snip)


To be clear, Green/Black would not be Edgelord Simulator (PMMM/MTG edition). She has much fewer inhibitions than most other people, but she'd try to be a sensible (anti)hero, not a villain. If giving people what they want is more effective than threatening them with what they don't, which she expect it often will be, then she'll go that route.

Similarly, Green/White isn't going to be an uncompromising bastion of pure purity. She wants allies, but ones she likes. In her mind, having a hard life isn't a license to be a bitch to others and she doesn't intend to waste time on people who are.

Finally, Black or White are your secondary colors, not your primary. These arguments are getting much more heated than they need to be.
Ah, right. To preempt the inevitable argument(s) over doing so: You will never be able to auto-Witch someone with magic. Excessive verbal psychological warfare may contribute, but you'll never be able to turn people into eldritch abominations on command.

Well, if you're willing to take this clear of a stance about it, that reassures me quite a bit. I'm still wary of a repeat of the worst parts of PMAS (or We Stand in Awe, god forbid), but that really goes a long way toward making me alright with a Black win again.
 
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Not really.
Evolution is adaptation to changes in the environment and/or competition that results in a better survival/reproduction rate of the species.
Breeding is forceful selecting traits you, the breeder, find worthwhile.
Directed vs un-directed genetic changes though man/natural selection makes a whole lot of difference.

Breeding can easily go "against" evolution and give negative traits to the resulting race at the expense of the animals' ... everything. And obviously, just waiting a few millions years will not give turn your pit bulls into chiwawas.
Heck, breeding can result in infertile animals (mostly through hybrids iirc). I doubt evolution can get much farther than that.

Also, i believe that breeding is more limited in scope, if only due to the amount of time available for a breeding project being generally limited to one, or at best a couple, of human lifetime(s).
I don't think we ever managed anything quite as impressive or extreme as, say the breeding of an aquatic dolphin race out of a wolf species. Or a bird race out of big lizards.

Ultimately i don't think the differences are too big, specially when protag's family have been selecting breeding their minions of centuries...
Corn started out as grass. For animals, no, we haven't done anything particularly impressive structurally, but I credit that to practicality (turning a lizard into a bird is impractical en the extreme, and not even what happened IRL, dinosaurs aren't technically lizards) and, as you say, the limitations of human lifespans. Our empathy with animals likely also plays a role, too.

That said, pretty much everything you bring up, like infertility or traits hat negatively impact the of the rest of the animal's biology also happen in nature. Human breeding projects are essentially just artificially controlled gene-pools and artificial selected traits. The underlying mechanisms are exactly the same. Hell, even the fact that animals we're domesticated often don't do well in the wild makes sense. It's comparable to dropping a penguin in the tropics.

As for how big the differences are between our pets and regular animals, I suggest you look into the differences in the phenotypes of horses over the last century. You can get surprisingly major shifts in a human lifetime. Nothing particularly major in-terms of structural shifts, but size shifts and shifts in muscle mass and location, as well as metabolism, those are quite possible. Something similar seems to have been the focus of our family's breeding projects, as well.
Black and White are not Evil and Good. They are methods to achieve what you (or at least the protag) thinks are Good things to do.

I don't think this would be an issue. So long as the Green/Black protag isn't stupid, she will the option, any option, that leads to the best and biggest personal growth. The only issue of black is that they see no inherent value to cooperation above betrayal. Only the end result is important. If loyal teammates fight and survive better and achieve the mission goal better than mindless drones or than liver punching one of them to distract the enemy with it's body, then she'll be all for it.
When running away from the enraged Dragon and a someone trips and falls, a Black mage will ask itself "if the effort needed to stop, carry, and run with the added weight hence increasing the chance of getting caught" is worth more or less than "the effort saved by having one more person able to fight and complete missions tomorrow".
Or "does a fireball to the Dragon's left nostril be enough to slow him down and the added rage be survivable"
The end result will most probably depend on the person that tripped (teammate or captured villain's minion?), and the likelihood of escaping the Dragon in the first place.

A White mage will stop and help. No matter who tripped. No matter what your chances of survival are.

A Black mage will be loyal to his/her teammates because betrayal is ultimately self-harming so long as they are loyal to you.
A White mage will always be loyal, even to jerk or evil "teammates".

A Black Mage will fight against Walpurgisnacht and Ragnarok because "it's her planet she lives here!". Also, even if she hides and survives, a dead kingdom with no-one in it is worthless.
A White Mage will fight those because it's the "Right thing to do".
Now add something like "sympathetic values and tragic backstory to Walpur-chan" and/or some plot surprise "i'm holding back something even worse than me!" and the White Mage breaks down due to conflicting "morality" issues.


Ultimately i much rather follow a character that actually does things because s/he believes they are worth doing, rather than follow a brain-dead thing that does things because of some nebulous will to do the "right" thing.
I don't think either of those are even good descriptions of our options. We're not playing a pure White or Black mage, and even then, there's more nuance to White than I think you give it credit for. Our character+Black is apparently prone to subtle insults and generally not a people person. Neither is our White version, but White at least lacks the passive aggression, and just has issues with attachment and shyness. One of those is going to cooperate better than the other.
Pretty sure any undead pets are more Black than White in nature...
Did...did you actually read the options? White already has ghost parrots. Black, on the other hand, has mostly been prevented from doing any sort of undead experimentation.
Have you considered the obvious result of picking White with little to no social skills ? i doubt protag will suddenly become a paragon of social interaction...
I very much doubt a missing half the tools needed to be a successful White is going to take any less time to fix than having a Black work on fixing her natural arrogance and cruelty.
Both are anti-social. One, however, has to unlearn their conversational habits, and learn new ones. The other just has to learn how to talk to people.
Two of the deciding factors for me are:

1. Socially insecure White is by necessity going to be somewhat similar to early Jade from Ignition,

and 2., I just think that the journey of the bitchy Black to be less of a bitch is going to be more interesting as well as amusing. ("Oh god why did I just say that, I'm an idiot.")
Fundamentally, most stories are about overcoming challenges, quests in particular, and the bigger the challenges, the more intersting those stories tend to be. People that are voting White because they think it'll be easier, imo, are missing the point.
If it's true that choosing Black will make our mission more difficult (and I'm not convinced that's true; For starters, White is about order and the greater good. They're just as likely to sell you out if it's for the greater good, they're just as likely to alienate people with dogma and controlling behaviour), then that is not a bad thing.
And as others have pointed out, Black and White are not about Good and Evil. None of the colors are. Every color is equally capable of being the hero or the villain.
It is a bad thing if you treat Quests as a game more than a story. Sure, playing with handicaps can be fun for some. But it's not everyone's cup-of-tea. I'd rather have powers I like (and I bloody love mass buffs and armies of minions) than powers that I like using less. Mycomancy is pretty cool, and venom is handy, but mass buffs are so much fun.
Was really surprised to see black and green being enemies on the color wheel. Many of my decks have been based on black and green. They have the power of recycling.
Oh, don't get me wrong. Two of my favorite decks I ever made are a BG Infect deck and a Selesnya deck, and my first deck was Jund (BRG). I like the recycling angle, and the venom angle. But we've kinda been blocked from doing much recycling, according to the write-up.
With Black we will actually gain power from our loses. Green allows you to make loads and loads of minions which are therefor more expendable black makes you gain power whenever any of them die. In fact a feel like a powerful strategy would be to build up for a while then sacrifice for a large burst of power. Take QB by surprise and take him over with said burst of power then sacrifice the QB for take on the incubators in general.
And then potentially empower one minion with the power we gained from sacrificing others, ala Jund. Yeah, BG can definitely do some cool stuff. So can White-Green, though, since buffing is empowered if we go with that.
There isn't some tiny pool of "evil people" that stay quiet and good except when a suitable quest pops up and then they all pile on to it. No, it's much more like real life. There are horrible people everywhere and they are continually trying to ruin everything we love. It's not even a screaming horde of barbarians at the gates; they are everywhere, in every quest, and they are always voting for evil shit. PMAS has a reputation for horrible toxicity because it is under siege by people who vote for the PC, who is one of the most established heroic characters in any quest on SV, to force people to witch out or hurt her friends or straight-up give up on being good. A lot of those same voters are right fucking here and they are voting for the same evil shit.
Being fair, V, there are also a lot of good people everywhere, too. And some people stay good IRL by being evil in games. Alivaril's brother, when playing with our Good aligned party after playing in many Neutral/Evil parties, once said something along the lines of "man, I'm really having to adjust to arson not being an acceptable plan B", and he's a pretty decent guy.
So uh, I get you've had some bad experiences, but you kinda ended up insulting a bunch of other people under the mantle of "horrible people" in one go. There might be a relationship between such actions in gaming and being a right bastard IRL, but it's by no means a 100% conversion rate (until you start to get into some extremely messed up stuff, but I wouldn't write that anyway).

There's a difference between performing amoral actions in fiction and doing so in real life. Take my brother, for example. He's a pretty good guy IRL, but he always gravitates toward the evil factions and actions in gaming simply because he doesn't get to do it as often (in the sense of it being different and thus interesting, not filling a quota). A similar example can be found in Monopoly: being an utterly merciless corporate overlord in that does not mean you dislike those you've decided to withhold mercy from.
Lol. I love how we both jumped to your brother for fairly good people who play Evil characters. He's like half of why I always end up playing "evil" factions in MMOs (Horde in WoW, Sith Empire in Star Wars: The Old Republic). Yes, I know the Horde isn't really evil. They're still mostly made up of the stereotypical "evil" races, though.
 
The problem with PMMM quests on SV is that the most active players tend to bring a mountain of baggage with them. Every protagonist inevitably gets compared to Sabrina or Jade or somebody else.

Our Golgari girl will be different, a bit more acerbic and self interested while still ultimately trying to save the world. That's interesting. That's why i voted for Black, along with the Life/Death mana synergies.
 
I don't really see the Bitchy Black being particularly amusing because the entire time I'll know it's not really about becoming nicer; it's about becoming more outwardly polite in the pursuit of a goal, and learning that kind of deceptiveness just removes part of the appeal for me (which is a character who is admirably upfront about her nature).

That's not the impression I got? From what I can tell, Black actually does want to become nicer.
Unfortunately, you supposedly also have a tendency to treat conversation as though it's just another kind of fight; you've been told you have a tendency to subtly insult others and generally come across as somewhat cruel. You're working on that.

She regards it as unfortunate that she's as hostile a conversationalist as she is. For her path forward, I'm envisioning less "learn to lie through your teeth with a smile", and more "learn to actually notice when you're being cruel, and then apologize afterwards", so she'd still be upfront about her nature. I could be wrong, of course.

As for stories being about overcoming challenges: that's true for stories, in which you're only along for the ride, but this is a quest, an interactive medium, which gives it much more in common with games. Games that are too difficult invite frustration and hinder engagement.

There are two separate reasons why I'm not worried about that.

First, as a central premise of MTG, no color is stronger or weaker than any other color. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, advantages and drawbacks. White has mass buffs and synergy. Black has resource advantages, and is overall the most versatile - it can replicate any effect of any other color if you are willing to pay the price. A bit of our own blood and pain are common prices. As well, Green/Black is really good at the resource game, and may get payoff from a single sacrifice multiple times over, or may find things to use from their surroundings that don't ultimately harm anyone.

Second, Alivaril is an experienced QM, and I have faith that he won't give us challenges that we cannot handle, no matter what secondary color we choose.

Actually, even ignoring the amorality of it, the PC has seen enough movies to know how enslaving souls ends. She's perfectly OK with the more expensive version. A better example might've been using personal information to blackmail someone into compliance vs using it to help them sort their lives out.

Would it be accurate to say Black subscribes to enlightened self-interest? As in, using your above example, she recognizes that in general, you'll get further by being helpful with personal information, in that while it may be a bit more work you also won't make enemies and can get people to help you via their gratitude just as well as with blackmail, even if she's willing to make exceptions on a case-by-case basis?

I hope we're not going to be doing a lot of killing things for power. So no golgari.

I don't think that's going to be an issue. Note that she's specifically unwilling to sacrifice people, or enslave souls, or stuff like that. Animal sacrifices should be manageable - after all, death is just as much a part of nature as life is. We should also be able to scavenge power just from being around death and decay, even if we didn't cause it.
 
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I don't think that's going to be an issue. Note that she's specifically unwilling to sacrifice people, or enslave souls, or stuff like that. Animal sacrifices should be manageable - after all, death is just as much a part of nature as life is. We should also be able to scavenge power just from being around death and decay, even if we didn't cause it.
We can also use green to make ecosystems. The more living stuff there is the more stuff there is that will die.
 
Would it be accurate to say Black subscribes to enlightened self-interest? As in, using your above example, she recognizes that in general, you'll get further by being helpful with personal information, in that while it may be a bit more work you also won't make enemies and can get people to help you via their gratitude just as well as with blackmail, even if she's willing to make exceptions on a case-by-case basis?

Pretty much, yeah. We're operating with the Black of ambition, not the Black of puppy-kicking evil.
 
Huh. This is more equal then expected. Honestly, if they weren't basically diametrical opposites, than I'd expect a compromise thing to happen but as it is...
I'm curious how green influences her personality, especially since I've either seen a write-up here or a an example in ignition of channeling/being attuned to every other color.
 
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