Black's personality isn't all that different from the personality of a veteran MG who has seen way too much horror to hold onto their idealism, actually. Similarly, White would likely seem like a newbie, or at least one not aware of the darker side of being a Magical Girl, due to being shy and unsure with social interaction, and not as bitter or cynical.

Now, which of those works better for our purposes, I don't know. Looking like a newbie might get us a teacher/mentor, whereas looking experienced might get us apprentices. Which...would be pretty bad, actually, since we can't actually teach them. But having a similar attitude to them might also help us forge alliances with veterans, so it's still kind of a crap-shoot, honestly.

This is an interesting point, actually. The idea that Black would help us forge alliances with people who have similar attitudes, though (...) I suppose it's possible, but getting a cynic to trust another cynic, particularly one as obviously cruel and ambitious as Black? I doubt that far more than I doubt the ability of White to forge alliances based on friendship and common interests, and she can barely string three words together in front of strangers apparently.
 
[X] White.

White seems interesting, the green/black combos seem fairly standard and boring, but green/white? Seems interesting
 
I mean, it's basically the same thing, just faster. Says the chemist who is really glad he's managed to avoid ever having to do dissections.
Not really.
Evolution is adaptation to changes in the environment and/or competition that results in a better survival/reproduction rate of the species.
Breeding is forceful selecting traits you, the breeder, find worthwhile.
Directed vs un-directed genetic changes though man/natural selection makes a whole lot of difference.

Breeding can easily go "against" evolution and give negative traits to the resulting race at the expense of the animals' ... everything. And obviously, just waiting a few millions years will not give turn your pit bulls into chiwawas.
Heck, breeding can result in infertile animals (mostly through hybrids iirc). I doubt evolution can get much farther than that.

Also, i believe that breeding is more limited in scope, if only due to the amount of time available for a breeding project being generally limited to one, or at best a couple, of human lifetime(s).
I don't think we ever managed anything quite as impressive or extreme as, say the breeding of an aquatic dolphin race out of a wolf species. Or a bird race out of big lizards.

Ultimately i don't think the differences are too big, specially when protag's family have been selecting breeding their minions of centuries...

Hence why I'm not so sure it's a good choice. Not only will cooperation be useful in this scenario,
Black and White are not Evil and Good. They are methods to achieve what you (or at least the protag) thinks are Good things to do.

I don't think this would be an issue. So long as the Green/Black protag isn't stupid, she will the option, any option, that leads to the best and biggest personal growth. The only issue of black is that they see no inherent value to cooperation above betrayal. Only the end result is important. If loyal teammates fight and survive better and achieve the mission goal better than mindless drones or than liver punching one of them to distract the enemy with it's body, then she'll be all for it.
When running away from the enraged Dragon and a someone trips and falls, a Black mage will ask itself "if the effort needed to stop, carry, and run with the added weight hence increasing the chance of getting caught" is worth more or less than "the effort saved by having one more person able to fight and complete missions tomorrow".
Or "does a fireball to the Dragon's left nostril be enough to slow him down and the added rage be survivable"
The end result will most probably depend on the person that tripped (teammate or captured villain's minion?), and the likelihood of escaping the Dragon in the first place.

A White mage will stop and help. No matter who tripped. No matter what your chances of survival are.

A Black mage will be loyal to his/her teammates because betrayal is ultimately self-harming so long as they are loyal to you.
A White mage will always be loyal, even to jerk or evil "teammates".

A Black Mage will fight against Walpurgisnacht and Ragnarok because "it's her planet she lives here!". Also, even if she hides and survives, a dead kingdom with no-one in it is worthless.
A White Mage will fight those because it's the "Right thing to do".
Now add something like "sympathetic values and tragic backstory to Walpur-chan" and/or some plot surprise "i'm holding back something even worse than me!" and the White Mage breaks down due to conflicting "morality" issues.


Ultimately i much rather follow a character that actually does things because s/he believes they are worth doing, rather than follow a brain-dead thing that does things because of some nebulous will to do the "right" thing.


when you draw your power from being a bitch and because of that the world will die if you aren't bitchy enough.
Black is anything for personal power. Red are more likely to be bitchy magic girls due to heighten emotions.

Backstabbing and power plays can be interesting, but only should be done when you don't have compatible goals or think the other party is surely acting in bad faith (like in international politics :V). In this context, intrigue is wasted effort on obtaining personal power, which at best is effort not being put toward the higher cause of stopping the apocalypse and at worst actively decreases the total power we could put toward that goal (by disempowering others more than we empower ourselves). Besides, White is explicitly capable of backstabbing and power plays if it's in the interests of the Greater Good (and yes, that's exactly as questionable as it sounds).
See you're even thinking like a Black mage: "<random thing or act> is useful, but ..." ;)

Fair enough, though we haven't seen all that much White used, either. Personally, I just love the synergy between White and Green. Also, ghost-pets. They make much less of a mess than zombie-pets.
Pretty sure any undead pets are more Black than White in nature...

This is an interesting point, actually. The idea that Black would help us forge alliances with people who have similar attitudes, though (...) I suppose it's possible, but getting a cynic to trust another cynic, particularly one as obviously cruel and ambitious as Black? I doubt that far more than I doubt the ability of White to forge alliances based on friendship and common interests, and she can barely string three words together in front of strangers apparently.
Have you considered the obvious result of picking White with little to no social skills ? i doubt protag will suddenly become a paragon of social interaction...
I very much doubt a missing half the tools needed to be a successful White is going to take any less time to fix than having a Black work on fixing her natural arrogance and cruelty.
 
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Not really.
Evolution is adaptation to changes in the environment and/or competition that results in a better survival/reproduction rate of the species.
Breeding is forceful selecting traits you, the breeder, find worthwhile.
Directed vs un-directed genetic changes though man/natural selection makes a whole lot of difference.

Breeding can easily go "against" evolution and give negative traits to the resulting race at the expense of the animals' ... everything. And obviously, just waiting a few millions years will not give turn your pit bulls into chiwawas.
Heck, breeding can result in infertile animals (mostly through hybrids iirc). I doubt evolution can get much farther than that.

Also, i believe that breeding is more limited in scope, if only due to the amount of time available for a breeding project being generally limited to one, or at best a couple, of human lifetime(s).
I don't think we ever managed anything quite as impressive or extreme as, say the breeding of an aquatic dolphin race out of a wolf species. Or a bird race out of big lizards.

Ultimately i don't think the differences are too big, specially when protag's family have been selecting breeding their minions of centuries...


Black and White are not Evil and Good. They are methods to achieve what you (or at least the protag) thinks are Good things to do.

I don't think this would be an issue. So long as the Green/Black protag isn't stupid, she will the option, any option, that leads to the best and biggest personal growth. The only issue of black is that they see no inherent value to cooperation above betrayal. Only the end result is important. If loyal teammates fight and survive better and achieve the mission goal better than mindless drones or than liver punching one of them to distract the enemy with it's body, then she'll be all for it.
When running away from the enraged Dragon and a someone trips and falls, a Black mage will ask itself "if the effort needed to stop, carry, and run with the added weight hence increasing the chance of getting caught" is worth more or less than "the effort saved by having one more person able to fight and complete missions tomorrow".
Or "does a fireball to the Dragon's left nostril be enough to slow him down and the added rage be survivable"
The end result will most probably depend on the person that tripped (teammate or captured villain's minion?), and the likelihood of escaping the Dragon in the first place.

A White mage will stop and help. No matter who tripped. No matter what your chances of survival are.

A Black mage will be loyal to his/her teammates because betrayal is ultimately self-harming so long as they are loyal to you.
A White mage will always be loyal, even to jerk or evil "teammates".

A Black Mage will fight against Walpurgisnacht and Ragnarok because "it's her planet she lives here!". Also, even if she hides and survives, a dead kingdom with no-one in it is worthless.
A White Mage will fight those because it's the "Right thing to do".
Now add something like "sympathetic values and tragic backstory to Walpur-chan" and/or some plot surprise "i'm holding back something even worse than me!" and the White Mage breaks down due to conflicting "morality" issues.


Ultimately i much rather follow a character that actually does things because s/he believes they are worth doing, rather than follow a brain-dead thing that does things because of some nebulous will to do the "right" thing.



Black is anything for personal power. Red are more likely to be bitchy magic girls due to heighten emotions.
I would like to say that this is a completely unfair assessment of the MTG colors.
 
I would like to say that this is a completely unfair assessment of the MTG colors.
It is somewhat unfair, but primarily due to considering the colors as absolutes instead of tendencies. I suspect the characters will be, well, characters, not color-puppets. However-
Possibly, but if people are voting on White based on prejudice and tropes of Black's failures then I think i'm entirely justified pointing out the White trope failures too.
Yeah, basically that. It's no more unfair than the people calling Black evil/unable to cooperate/etc are.

Admittedly, I'm just voting black because white's my least favorite color. (Followed closely by green.)
 
Possibly, but if people are voting on White based on prejudice and tropes of Black's failures then I think i'm entirely justified pointing out the White trope failures too.
And I don't think this is a reasonable way so as to argue your position. You've made White into a carcriature of 'Stupid Good'.
 
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Possibly, but if people are voting on White based on prejudice and tropes of Black's failures then I think i'm entirely justified pointing out the White trope failures too.

Uh... that would be fair if you began by saying you were listing White trope failures, but... you said that White and Black are not Good and Evil and then you went out of your way to portray White as Good. The worst parts of Stupid Good, mind you, but nonetheless Good. You made an argument that actually undermined your thesis.

Also you described White mages as "brain-dead things". That isn't pointing out trope failures. That's a blatant insult. :/

It is somewhat unfair, but primarily due to considering the colors as absolutes instead of tendencies. I suspect the characters will be, well, characters, not color-puppets. However-

Yeah, basically that. It's no more unfair than the people calling Black evil/unable to cooperate/etc are.

Admittedly, I'm just voting black because white's my least favorite color. (Followed closely by green.)

No one called Black evil, though. Cynical, yes. Disloyal? By implication, totally. Evil, though? I called her powers evil-looking (they were all but outright described that way in-character), but I never called Black herself evil. Exactly one person insinuated they were outright unable to cooperate, and they implicitly recanted. What we've been saying is that Black is generally unable to form alliances based on trust and friendship, and as a color that views everything through the lens of selfishness and power dynamics, they... are?

That isn't necessarily the case for our character, since Black is our secondary mana and personalities favor mana colors rather than being determined by them, anyway, but Black is pretty clearly a bitch. Like, in the text. Right there. She's an honest bitch, sure, possibly an effective one, but a bitch nonetheless. That's not a prejudice based on mana colors. That's a judgment based on self-admitted flaws of the character. Could she overcome that to form alliances? Probably, particularly if she can give the impression of being powerful enough to back up her attitude. Will she be able to gain the trust and friendship of idealistic magical girls (who will be repulsed by her cruelty) or cynical magical girls (who will be wary of her cutthroat ambition)? Probably not. That has nothing to do with mana colors, and everything to do with personality.
 
No one called Black evil, though. Cynical, yes. Disloyal? By implication, totally. Evil, though? I called her powers evil-looking (they were all but outright described that way in-character), but I never called Black herself evil. Exactly one person insinuated they were outright unable to cooperate, and they implicitly recanted. What we've been saying is that Black is generally unable to form alliances based on trust and friendship, and as a color that views everything through the lens of selfishness and power dynamics, they... are?
Evil was mostly in reference to this, which does by implication:
Being a good person is important!
(Incidentally, the idea that black mages can't form alliances based on trust or friendship is wrong. It is not part of black's tendencies as a color, but characters can defy those tendencies perfectly fine.)
 
Evil was mostly in reference to this, which does by implication:

(Incidentally, the idea that black mages can't form alliances based on trust or friendship is wrong. It is not part of black's tendencies as a color, but characters can defy those tendencies perfectly fine.)

Hm, I would argue that technically, being a Black does stop you from being a good person, but does not necessarily make you a bad person. I'll give you that it does imply being Black would make you outright evil, though, since that's how implications work.

(I did take care to point that out. Multiple times, in fact. However, my main concerns weren't really about Black mages as a whole. It was about how Black as a character was portrayed in the descriptions. She isn't the kind of person who endears herself to people. She's trying to learn how to be nice in order to better get what she wants, but she definitely strikes me as the kind of person who will sell you out if it would be worth it. She wouldn't do it lightly, mind you, and I doubt that kind of situation would ever really come up-- but the mere knowledge that she would instantly excludes the possibility of a true friendship from her side, and therefore a true friendship at all. You can't trust someone who would sacrifice you and everything you care about without a shred of remorse, who would manipulate you ruthlessly if it was the best path to their goal, which they perceive to be the greater good. Why else do people rampantly distrust Kyuubey?

For the record, I don't think Kyuubey is Black-- I'd probably pin him as Blue/White, actually, or maybe just Blue. At the very least, he makes too many excuses to be a Black, who are sincerely and openly amoral if nothing else. I'm just saying that to act that way is to act not so very different from pragmatic, remorseless Kyuubey.)

See you're even thinking like a Black mage: "<random thing or act> is useful, but ..." ;)

... Well, yeah. Nothing stops me from being both pragmatic and wanting to be White. White can be pragmatic; it's just that there will always be some things that it won't abandon for personal gain. Besides, at least one of my favorite characters that I can think of off the top of my head would belong solidly in the Black category. Well, probably Red, secondary Black. Maybe the other way around? Point is, I'm not prejudiced against Black. I just don't think it's the best course of action for this quest, and I don't generally like assholish characters sans character arcs or redeeming friendships, which Black as she's been characterized probably is.

Well, either that, or she'll have her teeth pulled out by the SV hugbox, in which case what would've been the point? I mean, I'll probably be on the hugbox express at least part of the time, but that doesn't mean I can't question why the voterbase went with Black if enough of them were gonna swing to being a goody-two-shoes when it's necessary to actually live up to the pragmatic amorality.

Have you considered the obvious result of picking White with little to no social skills ? i doubt protag will suddenly become a paragon of social interaction...
I very much doubt a missing half the tools needed to be a successful White is going to take any less time to fix than having a Black work on fixing her natural arrogance and cruelty.

Yes, I have. They are both difficult, but a White growing into her role is easier and more interesting than watching a Black try to tamp down her natural tendencies.
 
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Okay, Lets see if I can reply to this without splitting it up (seriously, it's basically impossible to tell what I'm responding to if I don't, but it's against the site rules, so.)
Hm, I would argue that technically, being a Black does stop you from being a good person, but does not necessarily make you a bad person. I'll give you that it does imply being Black would make you outright evil, though, since that's how implications work.

(I did take care to point that out. Multiple times, in fact. However, my main concerns weren't really about Black mages as a whole. It was about how Black as a character was portrayed in the descriptions. She isn't the kind of person who endears herself to people. She's trying to learn how to be nice in order to better get what she wants, but she definitely strikes me as the kind of person who will sell you out if it would be worth it. She wouldn't do it lightly, mind you, and I doubt that kind of situation would ever really come up-- but the mere knowledge that she would instantly excludes the possibility of a true friendship from her side, and therefore a true friendship at all. You can't trust someone who would sacrifice you and everything you care about without a shred of remorse, who would manipulate you ruthlessly if it was the best path to their goal, which they perceive to be the greater good. Why else do people rampantly distrust Kyuubey?
Being a Black Mage in no way stops you from being a good person - see earlier about how what color they use doesn't define a character. Black's traits are neither good nor necessarily evil, though.

Ignoring the second-to last sentence (which I'll comment on in a sec), I don't really agree with that definition of friendship - friends do that all the time. They don't (usually) do it lightly, but it happens. When a friendship breaks up, were they retroactively never friends? No, of course not. You do have a point here, I just don't think it's as absolute as you've portrayed it. She's not going to have an easy time making friends. But I feel things like these
you're not going to kill or torture someone just because it helps your goals
...
You're working on that.
You think sacrificing someone just for magical power would be a horrible betrayal of the goal you're fighting for
imply that she wouldn't sell out her friends without a very good reason. Now, I'm sure she would if she did have a sufficiently good reason, but that's hardly unusual or a good reason to say she's incapable of having friends.

Regarding that specific sentence...I very much doubt she would do it without a shred of remorse. Black, as a color, wouldn't give remorse*, but the character almost certainly would. That's not unusual for black characters, either.

There's also the interpretation of black where caring about your friends is selfishness, but that's probably not that relevant here.

*Neither would Blue or Green or Red, for that matter. Okay, maybe red.

The rest of your post are points I mostly agree with, though I'm sticking with black.
 
[X] White

Since the description of what we are going to get for choosing Black mostly lists abilities that I'd probably vote against using even when the opportunity arrives, might as well vote for White in advance.
 
[X] White

The discussion for/against the colours here is quite interesting, but my decision comes down to the point that, at a basic level, GB are opposing colours while GW are cooperative.
 
Two of the deciding factors for me are:

1. Socially insecure White is by necessity going to be somewhat similar to early Jade from Ignition,

and 2., I just think that the journey of the bitchy Black to be less of a bitch is going to be more interesting as well as amusing. ("Oh god why did I just say that, I'm an idiot.")
Fundamentally, most stories are about overcoming challenges, quests in particular, and the bigger the challenges, the more intersting those stories tend to be. People that are voting White because they think it'll be easier, imo, are missing the point.
If it's true that choosing Black will make our mission more difficult (and I'm not convinced that's true; For starters, White is about order and the greater good. They're just as likely to sell you out if it's for the greater good, they're just as likely to alienate people with dogma and controlling behaviour), then that is not a bad thing.
And as others have pointed out, Black and White are not about Good and Evil. None of the colors are. Every color is equally capable of being the hero or the villain.

[X] White

The discussion for/against the colours here is quite interesting, but my decision comes down to the point that, at a basic level, GB are opposing colours while GW are cooperative.

At the same time, opposing colors are also balanced. White and Green exacerbate each other's issues just as much as they build on each other's strengths, where Green and Black are a lot more capable of considering and approaching problems from multiple angles.
 
[X] Black

I like the idea of playing a character to whom being good doesn't come naturally. besides Green/Black is my favourite colour combination^^
 
1. Socially insecure White is by necessity going to be somewhat similar to early Jade from Ignition,

and 2., I just think that the journey of the bitchy Black to be less of a bitch is going to be more interesting as well as amusing. ("Oh god why did I just say that, I'm an idiot.")
Fundamentally, most stories are about overcoming challenges, quests in particular, and the bigger the challenges, the more intersting those stories tend to be. People that are voting White because they think it'll be easier, imo, are missing the point.

This argument has persuaded me. It would be easier to fulfill our mission as White, but Black might be a more interesting story. Shy, support-enhancing newbie magical girl seems like a much more common story than ambitious/cruel character trying to form a genuine alliance.

[x] Black
 
[X] White.

I'll take a Selesnya setup please.

Aka "Why are there so many Giant Saprolings Everywhere!? And who brought the Elephants!?"
:p
 
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