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Exclusion (PMMM AU / MTG)

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Alivaril said:
you need to contact contracted Magical Girls, keep them alive, and turn them against Kyubey without letting him realize your abilities aren't the product of a wish.
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...Okay, you're right. How...? @Alivaril How does our PC think this is even vaguely possible when Kyubey remembers everyone it's contracted, we're not on that list, we're running around with a bunch of dogs the size of houses, we don't have a soul gem, and no Grief Seeds that we possess ever gain Grief? Like, that scene where Kyubey induces pain in Sayaka by messing with her soul gem; clearly it has some understanding of the mechanics and we can't just claim that we keep our soul gem in a pocket. Did someone already pwn Kyubey hard enough to wreck that "it knows everyone he's contracted' part? Is there precedent for magical girls with powers that don't run on Grief and whose wishes didn't have any Kyubey involvement? Something else?
Powerofmind said:
canon PMMM contradicts the latter; Kyubey has virtually no comprehension of magic as a phenomenon as stated by itself,
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The daily amount of rapid plant growth we can induce increases linearly with the number of Hallowed Havens we've laid down and our proximity to forests, with some error that can be traced to increasing skill. Perhaps it would have been easier to understand my point if I had said that Kyubey will rapidly figure out that we run on some limited resource that's produced by ourselves, by forests, and by Hallowed Havens? That kind of inference is what I'd expect to come up at the thirty-minute mark in a superhero movie, at exactly the spot where the villain lays explains how he's going to keep the hero from upsetting his plans and kicks off Act 2. If we're going to use canon as evidence, look at how Kyubey talks about Potential and can measure Madoka's at a glance, how quickly it figured out Homura's time-stop power, and how it was the one to figure out and reveal the Potential-entanglement loop that Homura had started and that was making Madoka so powerful. Kyubey may not have a principled explanation for magic as a whole, but it's phenomenally good at applying its empirical understanding of magic's effects and applications.
 
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Alivaril said:
You (accidentally forgot the rest of your sentence)
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I'm leaving that there just to piss you off for historical reasons.
Vebyast said:
The public doesn't know how magical girls work. If we get in early enough we'll actually be able to define the public understanding so that it includes ourselves. Any magical girl that knows better would have already been able to figure us out by observation. If anyone complains we can just ask them how many magical girl powersets they're familiar with. That leaves Kyubey as the biggest threat, and I'd be astounded if mundane publicity was able to give him anything he wouldn't already know. Interestingly, we don't actually have to keep mana magic secret from everyone; magical girls can't learn because we'd become even more of a target, which also contraindicates telling the public, but someone like the police chief (who can, presumably, keep a secret) wouldn't be an issue at all. I'm actually contemplating being open about our different power source with any Commissioner Gordon equivalent we find; Kyubey already knows that we're not a magical girl (because it didn't contract us), and it'll probably figure out that we gain mana from HH as soon as we start taking advantage of it, so sometime this afternoon. That would improve transparency and strengthen our position, and if we're lucky give us access to PR support that we could use to muddy the waters about our powerset even further.
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I don't disagree with much of this. As you say, they'll figure it out from observation. My problem is that you're allowing us to be observed by significantly more people than I'm comfortable with this early in the game. And fairly closely observed, at that.

You're also making it near certain that we won't be able to control who we work with. Bureaucracies don't give a damn, so long as you can get the job done. Instead of working with our friends, we'll be working with other employees of the local government. We're not really going to be Batman. Batman established himself as an independent actor first, and developed a good rep, as well. We're asking for a lot of trust and power, without establishing much of our credentials first. Being the first one to tell the authorities what's going on in exchange for power isn't going to look all that good to the people in authority, I think.
Vebyast said:
Already happening. I think we've been essentially told that our only route to winning includes running (or at least setting up and influencing the direction of) a major magical organization.
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Yeah, but you're sacrificing control for speed and ease of forming the group. Not hugely fond of that.

Honestly, I kinda want to become a Gang-Star magical mob boss, but that's the Jojo Part Five Anime I've been watching talking. Still, a super-powered crime family is definitely a major magical organization.
Vebyast said:
...Okay, you're right. How...? @Alivaril How does our PC think this is even vaguely possible when Kyubey remembers everyone it's contracted, we're not on that list, we're running around with a bunch of dogs the size of houses, we don't have a soul gem, and no Grief Seeds that we possess ever gain Grief? Like, that scene where Kyubey induces pain in Sayaka by messing with her soul gem; clearly it has some understanding of the mechanics and we can't just claim that we keep our soul gem in a pocket. Did someone already pwn Kyubey hard enough to wreck that "it knows everyone he's contracted' part? Is there precedent for magical girls with powers that don't run on Grief and whose wishes didn't have any Kyubey involvement? Something else?

The daily amount of rapid plant growth we can induce increases linearly with the number of Hallowed Havens we've laid down and our proximity to forests, with some error that can be traced to increasing skill. Perhaps it would have been easier to understand my point if I had said that Kyubey will rapidly figure out that we run on some limited resource that's produced by ourselves, by forests, and by Hallowed Havens? That kind of inference is what I'd expect to come up at the thirty-minute mark in a superhero movie, at exactly the spot where the villain lays explains how he's going to keep the supervillain from upsetting his plans and kicks off Act 2. If we're going to use canon as evidence, look at how Kyubey talks about Potential and can measure Madoka's at a glance, how quickly it figured out Homura's time-stop power, and how quickly it was the one to figure out and reveal the Potential-entanglement loop that Homura had started and that was making Madoka so powerful. Kyubey may not have a principled explanation for magic as a whole, but it's phenomenally good at applying its empirical understanding of magic's effects and applications.
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Confusion as to how we plan to hide what we are seconded. Unless the Blue mage clan has hacked into the Kyubey Overmind, I don't see that being feasible.
 
According to Alivaril, it's entirely feasible and even expected that we keep kyubey in the dark until it abandons the planet in expectation of it collapsing under the weight of kriemhild gretchen, or, that's the understanding I have of the OP.
 
Nixeu said:
Instead of working with our friends, we'll be working with other employees of the local government.
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Far more likely we end up as the resident "Sparklie" on whatever team of specialists they cook up to deal with magical girl incidents, which would be perfect for what we need. Those people will be the boots on the ground for nearly every situation that develops, including those that end in tense standoffs and various negotiations instead of fights. Presenting a consistent set of friendly faces will be a major part of the strategy for dealing with the magical girl community especially given the relatively small size; there are probably fewer than a hundred girls in NYC. Then here's the interesting part: That team owns magical girl policy, de facto if not de jure. Every time they end up in the middle of a meguca standoff they will have to be the ones making the decisions because they are the people that know the magical girls and that the magical recognize, and everything the department gets about what's actually happening with magical girl politics will come from their reports. So imagine less Batman and Commissioner Gordon and more... Captain America and Agent Coulson+Black Widow+Hawkeye. Which I'd be perfectly happy with, given that we're Green/White and that position gives us more than enough organizational influence to start the planet gearing up to defend against a super-Witch.
Powerofmind said:
According to Alivaril, it's entirely feasible and even expected that we keep kyubey in the dark until it abandons the planet in expectation of it collapsing under the weight of kriemhild gretchen, or, that's the understanding I have of the OP.
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Yes, that's what we're currently making confused noises about. We know that the PC expects to keep Kyubey in the dark, but how does she expect it to work?
 
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Powerofmind said:
According to Alivaril, it's entirely feasible and even expected that we keep kyubey in the dark until it abandons the planet in expectation of it collapsing under the weight of kriemhild gretchen, or, that's the understanding I have of the OP.
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Yeah, but he hasn't said why or how. Knowing that is key to not f*cking it up on accident.
Vebyast said:
Far more likely we end up as the resident "Sparklie" on whatever team of specialists they cook up to deal with magical girl incidents, which would be perfect for what we need. Those people will be the boots on the ground for nearly every situation that develops, including those that end in tense standoffs and various negotiations instead of fights. Presenting a consistent set of friendly faces will be a major part of the strategy for dealing with the magical girl community especially given the relatively small size; there are probably fewer than a hundred girls in NYC. Then here's the interesting part: That team owns magical girl policy, de facto if not de jure. Every time they end up in the middle of a meguca standoff they will have to be the ones making the decisions because they are the people that know the magical girls and that the magical recognize, and everything the department gets about what's actually happening with magical girl politics will come from their reports. So imagine less Batman and Commissioner Gordon and more... Captain America and Agent Coulson+Black Widow+Hawkeye. Which I'd be perfectly happy with, given that we're Green/White and that position gives us more than enough organizational influence to start the planet gearing up to defend against a super-Witch.
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Honestly, even if that's the case, I wouldn't mind actually having some meguca contacts first. It'd be one thing if we were known to the local MGs in any capacity, but a complete stranger/newbie taking such a role wouldn't work as well with that whole "connection to the community" thing.
Odysseus2099 said:
Kyubey didn't remember contracting Homura, but also didn't seem to care much.
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Homura also shot Kyubey when she saw his bunny-cat ass. And acted like a vet. We're supposed a newly contracted meguca. Surely he keeps track of new magical girls.
 
Likely we're meant to pretend to have a numerically-powered wish, where we gain the bulk of our actual power from having lots of 'patrons'. Kyubey wouldn't even bat an eye at it. Alivaril did say wishes can get pretty esoteric.
 
Nixeu said:
Honestly, even if that's the case, I wouldn't mind actually having some meguca contacts first. It'd be one thing if we were known to the local MGs in any capacity, but a complete stranger/newbie taking such a role wouldn't work as well with that whole "connection to the community" thing.
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I think we'd be there less as someone that's already integrated with the community - remember, as far as we and they know there are a ton of magical girls out there that'd have serious trouble defending themselves against charges of racketeering or outright murder, and getting someone that's brand-new should at least let them guarantee no unpleasant surprises about their new recruit - and more as someone that already has some knowledge, which we do, is in a demographic other than "special forces operator" and so can build relationships from a different direction, which we are and can, and who can offer direct magical support both for utility and combat, which is again well within our skillset. We even moved here only recently. I suspect they'd pick up another magical girl for local connections, improved combat flexibility, and to corroborate the information we provide. Maybe even a magical girl we personally recruit if people are right about magical girls not all being asshats. But we're powerful, look good on camera especially with our pets, offer a rare skillset and synergizes fantastically well with a SWAT team, and are squeaky-clean.

Also consider: The masquerade has been weakening, but we'd be the girl that broke it wide open and offered to team up with them for truth, justice, and the American way. They'd build a team around us just to capitalize on the PR from that move.
 
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Vebyast said:
She has no experience with lying or keeping things quiet.
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Lying no, but she's quite good at keeping things quiet – she doesn't speak as often as she should. Everyone else is loud by comparison. :V


Vebyast said:
...Okay, you're right. How...? @Alivaril How does our PC think this is even vaguely possible when Kyubey remembers everyone it's contracted, we're not on that list, we're running around with a bunch of dogs the size of houses, we don't have a soul gem, and no Grief Seeds that we possess ever gain Grief? Like, that scene where Kyubey induces pain in Sayaka by messing with her soul gem; clearly it has some understanding of the mechanics and we can't just claim that we keep our soul gem in a pocket. Did someone already pwn Kyubey hard enough to wreck that "it knows everyone he's contracted' part? Is there precedent for magical girls with powers that don't run on Grief and whose wishes didn't have any Kyubey involvement? Something else?
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Some individuals get powers from wishes that aren't linked to Grief; some healers might get a per-day pool to pull from for free, or that same pool might be given to someone who is not themselves a MG. When combined with the fact that his records are imperfect, either due to Blue meddling or reality-warping wishes, this makes a quite broad framework for the PC to fall under.

The PC's big concern isn't to let Kyubey figure out that she isn't a magical girl (and yes, you've pointed out some significant problems with that she hadn't previously thought of), but of letting him realize she's something new instead of someone benefitting from multiple overlapping wishes. Specifically, something there are more of. That realization is the high bar she does not wish to inch over.
 
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Alivaril said:
Lying no, but she's quite good at keeping things quiet – she doesn't speak as often as she should. Everyone else is loud by comparison. :V




Some individuals get powers from wishes that aren't linked to Grief; some healers might get a per-day pool to pull from for free, other wishes might empower people who are not themselves MGs. When combined with the fact that his records are imperfect, either due to Blue meddling or reality-warping wishes, this makes a quite broad framework for the PC to fall under.

The PC's big concern isn't to let Kyubey figure out that she isn't a magical girl (and yes, you've pointed out some significant problems with that she hadn't previously thought of), but of letting him realize she's something new instead of someone benefitting from multiple overlapping wishes. Specifically, something there are more of. That realization is the high bar she does not wish to inch over.
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There have been cases of time traveler magic girls that QB doesn't remember contracting.

@Alivaril : Do we have anything that we can pretend is our soul gem?
 
Alivaril said:
The PC's big concern isn't to let Kyubey figure out that she isn't a magical girl (and yes, you've pointed out some significant problems with that she hadn't previously thought of), but of letting him realize she's something new instead of someone benefitting from multiple overlapping wishes. Specifically, something there are more of. That realization is the high bar she does not wish to inch over.
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AhahHAH. Well. If our camouflage is the idea that we're the focus of several high-grade wishes... We should probably be acting like it. So who's up for starting the NYPD's first magical SWAT team and gearing up to tear through New York's worst magical girl gangs and clear out the awfulness? That sounds like something that'd be supported by all sorts of wishes. And... I'm not sure I see much else that's quite ambitious enough. Healing isn't quite it. Breaking the masquerade similarly. We have to do something with the fact that we broke the masquerade.
 
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Oh. Huge benefit of positioning ourselves as a celebrity Good Guy right as the masquerade breaks: new magical girls Wishing for our success.
 
Vebyast said:
I think we'd be there less as someone that's already integrated with the community - remember, as far as we and they know there are a ton of magical girls out there that'd have serious trouble defending themselves against charges of racketeering or outright murder, and getting someone that's brand-new should at least let them guarantee no unpleasant surprises about their new recruit - and more as someone that already has some knowledge, which we do, is in a demographic other than "special forces operator" and so can build relationships from a different direction, which we are and can, and who can offer direct magical support both for utility and combat, which is again well within our skillset. We even moved here only recently. I suspect they'd pick up another magical girl for local connections, improved combat flexibility, and to corroborate the information we provide. Maybe even a magical girl we personally recruit if people are right about magical girls not all being asshats. But we're powerful, look good on camera especially with our pets, offer a rare skillset and synergizes fantastically well with a SWAT team, and are squeaky-clean.

Also consider: The masquerade has been weakening, but we'd be the girl that broke it wide open and offered to team up with them for truth, justice, and the American way. They'd build a team around us just to capitalize on the PR from that move.
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And if they try and pass us up to federal authorities, to, say, the FBI or Homeland Security? Plus, if we're their on-call SWAT mage, are we going to be able to get approval to spend our power on Havens, especially for MGs? We have a limited amount of mana, and Havens are expensive. Concerns about us using our power supply on things other than our job would be quite reasonable. Especially right now, as they're having to respond to MGs being revealed.

You're asking us to commit to a pretty big play before we even have a face for our character yet, much less a name. I think this can maybe wait a vote or two.
Alivaril said:
Some individuals get powers from wishes that aren't linked to Grief; some healers might get a per-day pool to pull from for free, other wishes might empower people who are not themselves MGs. When combined with the fact that his records are imperfect, either due to Blue meddling or reality-warping wishes, this makes a quite broad framework for the PC to fall under.

The PC's big concern isn't to let Kyubey figure out that she isn't a magical girl (and yes, you've pointed out some significant problems with that she hadn't previously thought of), but of letting him realize she's something new instead of someone benefitting from multiple overlapping wishes. Specifically, something there are more of. That realization is the high bar she does not wish to inch over.
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Ah, okay. That makes sense, and seems a lot easier to hide.
 
fictionfan said:
I do find it odd that more magic girls don't put some sort of armor cover over their soul gems.
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Couple of reasons:
The average teenage girl doesn't have the workshop tools or experience to make something like that.
Soul gems, assuming they are based off rubies, are very hard to scratch, it takes a lot of impact damage to break one, and armor covers aren't very good at stopping F=MA. Like, you can hit someone with enough force to pulp the body part the soulgem is adjacent to and the gem should come out intact. (this is good because Witches DO hit that hard)
Most magical girls don't know there's something to protect. Noting that the background media which they based their assumptions on tend to display their magical dohickeys as a sign of pride and status. Possibly QB's fault
 
Nixeu said:
And if they try and pass us up to federal authorities, to, say, the FBI or Homeland Security?
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Perfectly fine. We'd have too much celebrity juice to shuffle off into a corner. In fact, that might be even better, because:
Nixeu said:
Plus, if we're their on-call SWAT mage, are we going to be able to get approval to spend our power on Havens, especially for MGs? We have a limited amount of mana, and Havens are expensive. Concerns about us using our power supply on things other than our job would be quite reasonable. Especially right now, as they're having to respond to MGs being revealed.
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The magic words are "training" and "power source". The stronger we get and the faster we get there the better. I bet that, once HH is explained to them, they actually go out of their way to find magical girls for us to enchant the houses of. They can lean on us for PR and info early on, basically riding around to show the flag and dropping Havens on the occasional important place as a PR stunt, and we'll only start spending real energy on anything other than HH once we've established a steady upward curve. It's not like they're idiots; at worst we tell them to talk to any scientist or engineer about feedback loops and building infrastructure and so on and so forth. They'll get it just as fast as we would, and the higher up we get the more likely it is they'll take the strategic view and focus on HH. It might even give us chance to work in the information about how Witches keep getting stronger. And on top of that, you know, we'll basically be explaining that we gain power by protecting people. That's not exactly the kind of thing you ignore.

As an example: "I wished to protect humanity from things like Walpurgisnacht. I got the ability to steadily strengthen everyone and everything around me, healing-regen-rez to make sure we don't lose ground, and the ability to declare a Haven from violence. Whenever I use that one to protect someone's home it feels like everything I do gets a little bit easier and cheaper. When I protect the home of a magical girl it's not even a little bit. I suspect that my Wish Magic is trying to tell me something there about who's going to be most useful when humanity needs to be protected and is encouraging me to gather and protect them. So we may want to do something about that."
Nixeu said:
You're asking us to commit to a pretty big play before we even have a face for our character yet, much less a name. I think this can maybe wait a vote or two.
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Half the votes right now are to get ourselves bogged down in magical girl drama which will interfere with our ability to do any of this. The other half involve breaking the news on live TV and giving up the chance to build a rapport with the police by giving them a chance to get their house in order before the masquerade finishes breaking. Two or three votes from now may be too late, especially given how people are talking about things - "let's go get in some fights" is not a helpful mindset for a wannabe Captain America. So I think that I'm presenting an idea that's in line with the other proposals and that now is exactly when I have to present it.
 
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Im for going after the police/US gov from vote one.

itll be fun if nothing else!

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[X] Veekie
 
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Vebyast said:
Half the votes right now are to get ourselves bogged down in magical girl drama which will interfere with our ability to do any of this. The other half involve breaking the news on live TV and giving up the chance to build a rapport with the police by giving them a chance to get their house in order before the masquerade finishes breaking. Two or three votes from now may be too late, especially given how people are talking about things - "let's go get in some fights" is not a helpful mindset for a wannabe Captain America. So I think that I'm presenting an idea that's in line with the other proposals and that now is exactly when I have to present it.
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...Okay, this actually annoyed me. Alivaril has already told you, voting to take a walk isn't freaking voting to go encounter a magical girl. It is by no means certain, and we can always just ignore one if we encounter one. You don't need magic to train animals or get them to like you, even if someone decides to assume that's the case. I was starting to get convinced, but this is making my contrarian side come out, and now I'm tempted to stick to my current vote to just prove that it's not what you're claiming it is.

Rest of your post I think made good points, but this really shot your argument in the foot for me. That's not what I'm bloody voting for, or at least not what I think I'm voting for, and you should know that.
 
Nixeu said:
...Okay, this actually annoyed me. Alivaril has already told you, voting to take a walk isn't freaking voting to go encounter a magical girl. It is by no means certain, and we can always just ignore one if we encounter one. You don't need magic to train animals or get them to like you, even if someone decides to assume that's the case. I was starting to get convinced, but this is making my contrarian side come out, and now I'm tempted to stick to my current vote to just prove that it's not what you're claiming it is.

Rest of your post I think made good points, but this really shot your argument in the foot for me. That's not what I'm bloody voting for, or at least not what I think I'm voting for, and you should know that.
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If you're going to pull crap like this then I'll go ahead and use metatextual arguments. You brought this upon yourself.

The vote after going exploring is not going to be an exact repeat of the current vote. That would just be bad writing. So something will change as a result of our going exploring, if only so the thread isn't presented with the task of re-fighting the same vote. So what will change? Not as a result of anything we do, but that will change our options enough that we don't just go walking around, get bored, come home, grab some pizza, and vote to go out again? The damn masquerade breaks.

So, yeah, we get exactly one shot at this. Heck, I think it was pointed out that we're still in character generation. "Heal, authorities, or do it yourself?" Feels like it could be a subtle way for us to choose some personality, right? Let's be Captain America.
 
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Vebyast said:
If you're going to pull crap like this then I'll go ahead and use metatextual arguments. You brought this upon yourself.

The vote after going exploring is not going to be an exact repeat of the current vote. That would just be bad writing. So something will change as a result of our going exploring, if only so the thread isn't presented with the task of re-fighting the same vote. So what will change? Not as a result of anything we do, but that will change our options enough that we don't just go walking around, get bored, come home, grab some pizza, and vote to go out again? The damn masquerade breaks.
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Ah! The meta! It burns!

...Nah, but seriously, this works for me. No real reason we can't go dicking around our apartment later. Might as well get down to brass tacks. I admittedly have a spontaneous side that kinda likes making suboptimal plays to see what happens, but I try to only let it off its leash when I'm the only one affected. Otherwise, I have trouble living it down.

[x] Vebyast
 
Vebyast, your arguments are convincing, but I still don't like your vote. It sounds too much like literally dragging police around to find magical girls and identify their homes. But your arguments for working with the police in general are convincing.

[X] Head over to the NYPD HQ (Or whatever they call it) and and offer to help them with magical law enforcement.
-[X] Be upfront about your capabilities: You're an inexperienced support, so for now, the best you can do is ward their stations and jails against violence one by one.
 
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