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Exclusion (PMMM AU / MTG)

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Alivaril said:
Public transportation — specifically, a bus going to within ten minutes of your destination — isn't nearly as horrifying as you'd expected. Slightly cramped? Sure. Somewhat stinky, a little, but it's not any worse than the rest of the city. It is long, though; the trip should've only been about seven miles, but it still took about forty minutes for you to get there. What's even the point of having a using a mechanical vehicle if it spends more than half its time stopped?
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...Why in the hell would you use a bus in New York? Just take the subway to the closest spot and walk. The traffic in NYC is ridiculous. Buses and taxis are terrible means of transit, unless you're hauling a lot of luggage, and can't reasonably use the subway or walk.

Edit: The Central Park area has decent subway access, too.
Alivaril said:
You form a bowl from your hands, hunch over to shield it from those behind you, and forge a spherical shield from a minimal amount of environmental White. A telltale golden glow flickers into visibility within a second. You expect some sort of a gasp, but none is forthcoming; when you look back up, you find Officer Rhyleigh blankly staring at the miniature shield-orb.

"So, that mess in Japan? Literally magic," you say quietly. "Can I please help you guys set up some system for policing its users before it finishes going public?"

The police officer before you continues staring for several seconds more before he shrugs and reaches for his handheld transceiver. He pauses with one hand on it.
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Yeah, he's definitely a New York cop. They see weird sh*t on the regular.
Alivaril said:
...four underwhelming reactions,...
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Again, it's New York City. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Kyubey doesn't bother wiping the memories of minor magical events here, because the inhabitants just shrug and go about their day.

I'ma hold off voting until there's been some more discussion.
 
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What about:
[X] You intended to reveal magic to law enforcement so that they can get ahead of the public reveal and the general chaos that is likely to follow. You can request that they contain the spread of the information so they can stay ahead of the curve, but it would defeat the purpose if they had to wait for the general reveal in any case.

The police have to report it eventually, yes, but the wheels of government are slow enough that said report is not going to get anywhere AND believed before the news breaks anyway.
 
[X] Refuse. You don't trust Kyubey to have the best interests of humanity at heart, not that you intend to tell him that part. If he wants you to delay, that's a good reason to reveal magic immediately.
--[X] You CAN fight Witches, thanks, so his Greater Good justification falls short on that end; he shouldn't be sabotaging someone who also wants to fight against Witches.
 
Should have killed him as soon as he popped up. Rather than leak tons of valuable information to the space rat.

You guy should also refrain from giving him more rope to hang you with.
 
zxzx24 said:
Should have killed him as soon as he popped up. Rather than leak tons of valuable information to the space rat.
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As far as you know, being that antagonistic to Kyubey when he doesn't know you is an excellent way to make him investigate further. It's not as though killing him would really have any effect on his ability to continuously delete the newest memories of the police officer; his ability to hide is superior to your ability to search.
 
Alivaril said:
As far as you know, being that antagonistic to Kyubey when he doesn't know you is an excellent way to make him investigate further. It's not as though killing him would really have any effect on his ability to continuously delete the newest memories of the police officer; his ability to hide is superior to your ability to search.
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Mmmmm. We were still pretty antagonistic, and we're pretty clearly being dodgey, but I digress.
 
zxzx24 said:
Should have killed him as soon as he popped up. Rather than leak tons of valuable information to the space rat.

You guy should also refrain from giving him more rope to hang you with.
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Yeah, because we totally had control over that, and knew he'd be popping up. That was 100% our character's choice there, my dude. We weren't in the driver's seat for that. Unless we had a standing vote to shoot him on sight (which sounds like a really bad idea anyway, it being both suspicious and aggressive when we want to be as under-the-radar as we can manage), we had no way of being prepared for a surprise Kyubey appearance immediately upon going to the cops. We kinda figured we'd have a bit longer to work with.
zxzx24 said:
Mmmmm. We were still pretty antagonistic, and we're pretty clearly being dodgey, but I digress.
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We're poorly socialized and aren't experienced with this sort of thing. Some awkwardness is expected.

Personally, I'd rather we give him an obvious loop-hole deliberately, so we have a better idea of how he'll likely try and screw us over. Alas, I am not paricularly skilled with lawyering, and am also tired.
 
Our fumbling attempts at a reveal are very likely going to have a better outcome than Kyubey's maliciously planned reveal.
 
Hmm. From what I recall, we went to reveal to the police for police support, not for widespread fame with the general public. If we show ourselves as amendable to compromise with Kyubey, then we should have longer before he tries to really fuck us over. Maybe we can bargain for a release of info to the police force in general, so they can be prepared for Kyubey's reveal tomorrow. That lets him get out his narrative to the wider public first, but we will hopefully have the trust of the police force to contain the damage.

Also, it occurs to me that Kyubey wanting to destabilise society or create circumstances more conducive to Wishing, is not necessarily antithetical to our goals. We're trying to build up our own army, our own power base. It's generally easier to do that in a chaotic situation rather than a stable one.

Obviously, destabilising the situation ourselves would be contrary to our character as a heroine. But letting someone else do it, especially when he's forcing our hand with blackmail and we'll get something out of our deal with him anyway... It's not the worst idea. Reminder that it'll be difficult to recruit magical girl allies if Kyubey is actively badmouthing us to everyone.
 
[] Agree to put off informing the public until later.
-[] ...Assuming he agrees to some tweaked terms, anyway.
--[] Immunity for the next 100 million minutes
--[] Political Summary
--[] 50 Unused Grief Seeds
--[] An introduction
--[] Whatever else we might be able to extort from Kyubey.

I suspect Kyubey wants this very badly and we should thus extort him for as much as possible - It will also inform us as to how big a thing this is.

As far as he is concerned we are just a random person who benefited from another wish. Compared to essentially influence over the entire world?
 
[X] Plan Extort Kyubey Maximally

Start with maximum demands in expectation that Kyubey will try and bargain them down. Offer reasoning as to why we should in fact Refuse as Kyubey rebutts in order.

Initial Demands (Expect them all to be watered down)

100 Million Minutes of Immunity (Expect bargaining down to 10 million or so.)
50 Unused Grief Seeds (ditto)
An introduction to MGs in the area, with Kyubey showing us a good light.
Information as to local MG politics.
100 Minutes of Kyubey's Time on a task we want doing, as when we request it.
1 Million US dollars in an untraceable way (This is to give Kyubey the impression that we are greedy and can be manipulated that way)

Reasoning to be used

Kyubey clearly wants this quite a bit, so even if we're not a magical girl he should be prepared to offer us appropriate compensation.
We can handle public speaking if we have to.
Kyubey isn't telling us what his plan to reveal the MGs, and this uncertainty is discomforting.
A 'Superhuman Registration Act' isn't such a bad idea, particularly since we don't know what exactly all the MGs do.
 
Kai Merah said:
Maybe we can bargain for a release of info to the police force in general
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This is already covered:
Alivaril said:
, I wait to deliberately demonstrate magic to the general public until after
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The police are specifically not the general public.

I agree with you that our primary goal was police support rather than publicity. Publicity would've been a nice benefit, and one which we can still obtain by having a nice public partnership with the police going.

[x] Agree to put off informing the public until later.
[x] Ask the police to keep things under wraps until it's announced; Kyubey has some kind of plan for managing the reveal.
  • Even if we reject the terms, Kyubey has already demonstrated that he would not have a great deal of trouble suppressing the information. I guarantee that he's been doing a huge amount of that over the last few days.
  • The QM's note appears to indicate that we have the upper hand. I would prefer to not risk it by tweaking the terms.
  • "Even total chaos would be better than the actions of someone with ill intent" is the kind of thinking that got the current US president elected. As I explained repeatedly in the previous update, as a secondary-White magical girl we benefit massively from the order and structure of civilization. I believe that we will gain more long-term benefit from civilization remaining stable than Kyubey will.
  • The structure of civilization amplifies potential. Think about it: Why else would Kyubey have encouraged, or even permitted, technology and civilization in the first place? Increased globalization increases the ability of each and every person to do more for more people, which translates directly into increased potential. Furthermore, large-scale breakdown of civilization isn't necessary or even useful for producing the kind of super-Witch that Kyubey needs. The only way to get things like that are via runaway feedback loops on personal scales, c.f. Homura and Madoka. Kyubey's game-plan isn't to tear down civilization or anything of the sort. It's to keep civilization going and wait for a single exceptional case that he can blow up into maximum profit. "The Night of Silver Skies". Not the week, month, or year - Whatever it is, it's going to be precipitous, and that means personal.
  • We are at a major IC disadvantage as far as scheming goes. We are better off trying to engage it outside skulduggery.
 
Vebyast said:
The police are specifically not the general public.
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Ah good, agreeing with Kyubey sounds like a pretty good idea then. Especially since Google calculator tells me that 5 million minutes is close to a year, and that should be more than enough ramp up time for us. But let's focus on "alive, happy, and of sound mind". If we agree to this, Kyubey has to treat us like a magical girl whom he wants to be "alive, happy, and of sound mind". What are the loopholes in this? Maybe he has to treat us like that, but when talking to others, he can badmouth us all he wants since that's how he's treating the image of us, or because he's talking to another magical girl instead of talking to us?

I think any kind of mind manipulation is probably off the table since we included "of sound mind" in our deal, and protag is right about him not likely to see putting us in a simulation as being worth the energy expenditure. If we get to be annoying enough though, he might still do something. Would knocking us unconscious and putting us in some kind of eternal sleep state be against what we asked for? After all, sleep is technically a natural state of mind. And we'd be alive, and at least content, assuming we're not having nightmares.

Hmm. Can anyone think of any other possible loopholes?
 
Kai Merah said:
Kyubey has to treat us like a magical girl whom he wants to be "alive, happy, and of sound mind". What are the loopholes in this?
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I don't predict that we're going to be able to find anything that is anything like what Kyubey will use. I would prefer to trust the defaults; if nothing else we know that, for simple gameplay reasons, the defaults won't be outright traps.
 
Alivaril said:
*whistles innocently*

I was actually referring to the 40-plus people who viewed the thread before silently wandering away, but that probably didn't help any. Whoops. ^^;
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I haven't actually read the update yet, myself. Public reveals like that make me cringe too much for me to convince myself to do so ATM.

Not having read it, I obviously can't really contribute, but I'm viewing the thread anyway.
 
[x] Agree to put off informing the public until later.
[x] Ask the police to keep things under wraps until it's announced; Kyubey has some kind of plan for managing the reveal.
 
Kai Merah said:
Especially since Google calculator tells me that 5 million minutes is close to a year,
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You missed a zero; it's close to ten years. That being said, you did deliberately leave him a way out so he'd agree at all: he won't sabotage or attack MGs he wants to keep alive, but he'll still let them die to Witches, Grief, or other Magical Girls. Really, you just want him to not be a fuzzy little irritant while you're working against him.
 
Alivaril said:
You missed a zero; it's close to ten years. That being said, you did deliberately leave him a way out so he'd agree at all: he won't sabotage or attack MGs he wants to keep alive, but he'll still let them die to Witches, Grief, or other Magical Girls. Really, you just want him to not be a fuzzy little irritant while you're working against him.
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Oh, you're right huh. That is a very good deal then. Probably. Better for Kyubey than for us, but when isn't it? Still, a promise of non interference from Kyubey for 10 years is worth so much peace of mind.

[x] Agree to put off informing the public until later.
[x] Ask the police to keep things under wraps until it's announced; Kyubey has some kind of plan for managing the reveal.
 
[x] Agree to put off informing the public until later.
[x] Ask the police to keep things under wraps until it's announced; Kyubey has some kind of plan for managing the reveal.
 
Vebyast said:
The structure of civilization amplifies potential. Think about it: Why else would Kyubey have encouraged, or even permitted, technology and civilization in the first place? Increased globalization increases the ability of each and every person to do more for more people, which translates directly into increased potential. Furthermore, large-scale breakdown of civilization isn't necessary or even useful for producing the kind of super-Witch that Kyubey needs. The only way to get things like that are via runaway feedback loops on personal scales, c.f. Homura and Madoka. Kyubey's game-plan isn't to tear down civilization or anything of the sort. It's to keep civilization going and wait for a single exceptional case that he can blow up into maximum profit. "The Night of Silver Skies". Not the week, month, or year - Whatever it is, it's going to be precipitous, and that means personal.
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More to the point, an unstable society takes effort on his part to maintain. Major societal problems are going to produce Wishes that try to solve those problems. Eventually, even if many of those Wishes fail, some are going to succeed, and society will slowly improve. And then he'd have to put effort into destabilizing it again.

No, Kyubey's better off just letting humans do their thing, and taking his MG candidates where he can. If anything, having death and suffering be rarer also means the impact of untimely death and/or suffering is greater, so he'd maybe have fewer MGs, but stronger ones.

[x] Agree to put off informing the public until later.
[x] Ask the police to keep things under wraps until it's announced; Kyubey has some kind of plan for managing the reveal.
 
Random832 said:
You're off by an order of magnitude. As the song goes, it's 525 thousand 600 minutes.
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That song is actually how the PC knew to pull out the five million number. :p


curiosity said:
It is explicitly not a promise of non-interference.
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Unless you're mistaken, it kinda is. For MGs he "wants" to keep alive, he typically provides (sometimes landmine-laden) emotional support, advice when asked, and little else. Since you dislike him, the emotional support would fail and he probably can't answer your questions, so he'd mostly leave you alone. This is a pleasant contrast to his usual "Witch everyone and their little dogs, too," which seems to involve turning Magical Girls against one another, providing unhelpful "helpful" information that makes MGs even more miserable, or asking questions* that — you guessed it — make MGs even more miserable.

The probably-paraphrased example of an unhelpful Kyubey you heard cited was "'Why does accidentally shooting a few humans trouble you so much? If you hadn't shown up to kill the Witch, then those humans probably would've died anyway. This way, they only felt a little pain; don't you think that's an improvement over being eaten alive?'"

(The MG also arrived too late to stop at least one person from being eaten.)
 
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[X] Agree to put off informing the public until later.

9 years without interference is a good deal. Hopefully the QB doesn't realize what we can do and the full measure of what we can do.
 
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Alivaril said:
Unless you're mistaken, it kinda is. For MGs he "wants" to keep alive, he typically provides (sometimes landmine-laden) emotional support, advice when asked, and little else.
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Would this noninterference extend to the people we tried to team up with as well? I mean I like the idea of being treated as a magical girl that he wants to keep around and alive but I can see him arranging things with other magical girls that we want to join the team because they aren't under that protection.

[x] Agree to put off informing the public until later.
[x] Ask the police to keep things under wraps until it's announced; Kyubey has some kind of plan for managing the reveal.​
 
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