[Exalted, ?] Most High

There's something I've been curious about.
We know that Odyssial was stronger than Sol Invictus.

However if I understood this right, Sol Invictus became much weaker when he created the Solar Exaltations.
My question is; how would Odyssial at his prime compare with Sol Invictus at his prime?
 
@Rihaku
How are you planning on handling Moon's powers and advancement? Will we at least get a rough overview of what she can do?

Is she going to advance at a fixed rate, or will competition with Ulyssian spur her on? How will her training charms work, anyway?

Are some of her Dragon-Blooded charms going to be converted, or will she have to learn everything new from scratch?

It'll mostly be fluff, since I don't have the time to create an entire new Charmset for her, but we were moving in that direction anyway, with Ulyssian having near maxed-out combat ability. I do have a rough idea of what her Charms will do, but they're more like a Panoply Charm in scope (as in, one Charm that does many things) rather than the modular Charm structure of the formal system.

There's something I've been curious about.
We know that Odyssial was stronger than Sol Invictus.

However if I understood this right, Sol Invictus became much weaker when he created the Solar Exaltations.
My question is; how would Odyssial at his prime compare with Sol Invictus at his prime?

Odyssial still wins.
 
There's something I've been curious about.
We know that Odyssial was stronger than Sol Invictus.

However if I understood this right, Sol Invictus became much weaker when he created the Solar Exaltations.
My question is; how would Odyssial at his prime compare with Sol Invictus at his prime?
Greatness 10: You have achieved Greatness 10, and thus Odyssial is accorded the title of [Most High]. Among all beings ever to exist in Creation, he unarguably is the very strongest. But do not take too much pride in your power, for it is not wisdom. Some would argue it is the furthest thing from that.
Odyssial wasn't merely the strongest then. He was the strongest ever, a much stronger claim.
 
Just realized I'd neglected to cast my vote.

[X] Fortress Luseng

Doubling down on the horrendous risks after taking yet another one seems a mite bit foolhardy. Instead, let's show the world a realm worthy of an Immaculate Dragon. Having Luseng become a shining metropolis filled with enlightenment and prosperity gives 'Mela' added legitimacy in addition to boosting our chances of survival. Also, since Moon is getting Occult powers, perhaps we could pass off the more overtly Sorcerous stuff as her work? She is, after all, credited as being the first Sorceror in the Immaculate legends. Hm, I wonder if she'd be capable of learning Solar Circle Sorcery in truth...
 
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That's not to say that such consequences are guaranteed, or even likely, just that curiosity is a dangerous mindset to have in this particular situation, especially in the perfect-defense-sparse landscape of 3E!
 
[X] Fortress Luseng

Let's not teach Moon sorcery. Zao never learned sorcery himself, and insist that Moon doesn't get taught either, there must be a good reason for this.
 
What could the danger possibly be? An ancient bloodline curse? Awakening the sleeping nameless eldritch horrors that were used to create the Shoguns? Unleashing Moon's inner munchkin, leading her to optimize all the things? Making her stop hiding her love? Honestly at this point I'm not convinced it isn't largely just Rihaku trolling.

Not utilizing terrestrial circle sorcery is one thing, but the opportunity cost of forgoing solar circle sorcery is quite another, especially considering the relatively limited areas to which Moon's new charms will apply. For instance, she can't ever get truly potent Athletics or Resistance charms. Still, there isn't too much she needs from it right now. Her native wind manipulation will be largely better than attack spells. Ulyssian has a bunch of the relevant utility spells and could easily learn others. Sorcerous workings are nice, but consume large amounts of time that is probably better spent training or working for now. When she finds herself once again straining against her newly expanded limits, that is the day she should consider sorcery. If she keeps her current company, though, that day may be a long time in coming.

Fundamentally, what's the point of Solar level Occult if you can't learn Solar Sorcery? The other charms don't really stand on their own. At least not for Solars, anyway. I suppose it could be different for Moon.
 
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Just realized I hadn't voted:

[X] Open The Path

The Pax Odyssial, the way it was described, seems to be a more risky and more difficult path to take. Going for the Sword of Creation is also dangerous. But it seemed like it is comparatively less risky/difficult than the Pax Odyssial.

One thing I'm not sure of though -- why does this option weaken the Realm against outside forces? If the Dragonblooded are focusing inwards, then they're building things up within the Realm right, so why would they be more vulnerable to outside attacks? Is it because the best defense for the Realm is a more pro-active stance against outside attackers or something, and an inward focus is too reactive?
 
What's the current vote count?

Just realized I hadn't voted:

[X] Open The Path

The Pax Odyssial, the way it was described, seems to be a more risky and more difficult path to take. Going for the Sword of Creation is also dangerous. But it seemed like it is comparatively less risky/difficult than the Pax Odyssial.

One thing I'm not sure of though -- why does this option weaken the Realm against outside forces? If the Dragonblooded are focusing inwards, then they're building things up within the Realm right, so why would they be more vulnerable to outside attacks? Is it because the best defense for the Realm is a more pro-active stance against outside attackers or something, and an inward focus is too reactive?

The focus is on civic engineering and reconstruction, not defense. The manpower of the Legions will be tasked for large-scale elemental terraforming and such, so they won't be superbly deployed.
 
[X] Fortress Luseng

Stacking risk on risk seems like a bad idea. The other options have to high a chanceof failure and the failures are both in ways that completly ruin what we are trying to achieve. Uniting the realm against us probably would be a success as this would extend the life expectancy but I think for now go with the safe option and work out the rest later
 
Hmmmmm I'm not sure whether to switch or not since the Pax apparently has the most chance for Moon to get killed (somehow?) if I'm reading it right.
 
Vote Tally : [Exalted, ?] Most High | Page 759 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.1.5

[X] Fortress Luseng
No. of Votes: 17


[X] Pax Odyissial
No. of Votes: 14


[X] Open The Path
No. of Votes: 6



Total No. of Voters: 37
 
Looks like Fortress Luseng is ahead on both votes and arguments at this time, but the votes are tight and arguments, while wider, are still fairly close as well.
 
Since Fortress Luseng appears to be currently winning, I'd like to outline a few potential issues that I see with it. Even if this doesn't convince people, it may help us to better foresee and address them.

The basic goal is to cram twenty or even two hundred million people in a capital city that currently holds two million and was only designed for two hundred thousand. Paradoxically, this last fact is actually what makes this feasible, as most of the current infrastructure was created essentially from scratch. We don't have to put everyone in the capital, but the logistics of sorcerous empowerment mean that it is probably easier to do so. The exception would be those who will be working agricultural or other extractive jobs.

We'll have to provide basic necessities for these people: food, water, shelter, sanitation, and hope. Before long we'll need to provide occupations and entertainment, lest they get bored and cause too much trouble. To merely get them here we'll have to organize the largest mass migration Creation has ever seen. We'll have to provide transport and supplies, and then secure them against pirates and raiders. These are not insolvable problems, but neither are they trivial. There is a reason we don't have enough excess time to also implement much of one of the other plans.

Fortress Luseng will require a number of potent sorcerous workings dedicated to benefit it's population merely to make it possible, let alone make it vaguely palatable. This is not a serious obstacle, but it will consume an enormous amount of time and XP. We may have a decent reserve of experience, but how long will that last? The time can be somewhat compensated for by the Sundial Throne, but not entirely. Remember that it is tiny, and can't help us to accelerate any working that would encompass a large external area, like the city. This means that rather than completing four or five workings in a month, we will only be able to complete one. We also can no longer depend on the Lily to boost our progress, though perhaps Moon might have a similar charm?

We'll definitely need a variant of the Translucent Champion, or at least her various abilities. She was potent before, but would be utterly insane enhancing tens of millions. Reducing food and disease will make supporting the population much easier. Less sleep means more productivity. A time bubble would be oh so tempting, if we can afford the time to create it and the additional logistical burdens required. There are numerous lesser workings that would be useful, but I don't think we can afford the time necessary to perform all of them. Perhaps if we could get a Celestial Circle Sorcerer or two? There's always Ivory, if nothing else. Really, attempting this plan without her would be insane. Uplifting a corps of mortal sorcerers might be useful, if we can possibly hope to produce enough. Initiating any relevant Celestials into an accelerated course of sorcery might not be a bad idea. Moon should be able to learn the training charms to allow this. I'd even be tempted to uplift a loyal Dragon-Blooded to Celestial or even Solar Circle Sorcery simply to ease the burden on Ulyssian, but that's more iffy.

While the immense concentration of population can allow for truly enormous benefits from economics of scale, assuming the formidable logistical issues can be overcome, it also creates enormous amounts of risk and potential for catastrophe. One single disastrous event could wipe out a substantial fraction of the North's entire population. Luseng will be extraordinarily well defended, so lesser threats like rampaging fae or invading armies won't be an issue. Even most single Celestials or small groups of Celestials won't be a serious problem. Larger coalitions certainly may be, and we won't be doing anything to prevent one from forming against us, or even simply without us. We might not come in to conflict at first, but we will be too big to ignore.

The largest issue, however, is dealing with more potent catastrophes. The kinds of things that will wipe a single city off the map, no matter how large it is, and no matter how well defended it is. Such threats are numerous in Creation. Solar Circle Sorcery. Void Circle Necromancy. The eldritch powers of forgotten nameless horrors. Rampaging behemoths. Horrific plagues of supernatural potency. Doomsday weapons from the First Age. Monstrous demonic creations. Luseng will be a very attractive target, especially for those who oppose us or would benefit from our fall. Several of our enemies will have access to such things and the will to use them. They would only have to get lucky once. We have to stop them every time. We'll have to continue to guard the Emerald Mountain, only now without the assistance of Lily or the wards placed by Ragnar.

The direct downsides of Fortress Luseng are comparatively miniscule, but so are the benefits. In one option, we secure the Blessed Isle and the Sword of Creation. In the other, we unite the Exalted host, or at least a substantial part of it, the part worth uniting. In the third, we'll rule a very shiny city with an enormous amount of displaced mortals and probably a few Exalts. We'll have enormous economic power once things get settled out, but is that really what we need? Sure, there's a lesser chance of failure, but we'll also have to invest an enormous amount of experience, something that isn't nearly as easy to come by these days. The failure states of Pax Odyssial are also by no means unrecoverable. A few of them could even be quite interesting, if extremely aggravating.

One might say that Fortress Luseng is playing it safe after an extremely risky choice, but is it really? Or is it simply refusing to pursue our current course of action to the logical conclusion? Will it give us the strength we need to deal with Anys, should her own high risk plan succeed?

What's the point of throwing Creation into peril to unite the fractious and warring Exalted Host if we don't bother actually uniting the Exalted Host?

Fanwork## 1033 words
 
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