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[Exalted, ?] Most High

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Rihaku said:
How would you use the Storm Armor as a component? Artifacts are indestructible.
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Even if the person attuned to 'em explicitly wants to destroy or reforge them? Seems kinda annoying that you can't recycle magical materials that way. Couldn't we just destabilize the patterns of essence making the artifact that way through extended Sorcerous manipulation? Or am I barking up a tree that can't be climbed? Magical weapons get destroyed all the time in myths. Difficult != impossible.

Wasn't the Godspear indestructible? How'd Ody break that?
 
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Rihaku said:
That's why he said "it doesn't matter how many sorcerous motes it costs if you're outside of combat," which is basically correct.
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I am saying that even outside combat, there is a limit on how often you can spam a spell. It might be a high limit, but it still exists.
If we decide to go "I spam spell X, alternated with mote collection, as often as I can 24/7 for the next 10 days" then we will only get so many of it cast in the duration instead of an infinite castings
 
Mmm, I don't think you guys would be prepared for the consequences of releasing those winds anyway. I mean, he didn't bind them for no reason!
 
mrttao said:
I am saying that even outside combat, there is a limit on how often you can spam a spell. It might be a high limit, but it still exists.
If we decide to go "I spam spell X as often as I can 24/7 for the next 10 days" then we will only get so many of it cast in the duration instead of an infinite castings
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How is this even relevant to the discussion at all? How would the fact that we can not literally cast a spell an infinite number of times influence this vote?
 
mrttao said:
I am saying that even outside combat, there is a limit on how often you can spam a spell. It might be a high limit, but it still exists.
If we decide to go "I spam spell X, alternated with mote collection, as often as I can 24/7 for the next 10 days" then we will only get so many of it cast in the duration instead of an infinite castings
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Uh... obviously, since the spell takes time to cast? If they'd made it cost 0 motes and required Shape Sorcery actions scaling with the power of the spell, that would be the same thing. The entire point of his argument was that motes are not the limiting factor. Especially for travel spells, because you have no particular reason or ability to spam them. No one was claiming you'd be able to take infinite actions of any kind, for obvious reasons.

That's like saying, "if I want to talk, I can't say an infinite number of words in 24 hours." Of course not, talking takes time.
 
Rihaku said:
How would you use the Storm Armor as a component? Artifacts are indestructible.
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Have Moon wear it and use it as a conduit for the ritual? Even without the attunement that comes with Evocations from the artifact, the Storm Armor is clearly an item of power.

Also, my vote:

[X] Acquire Defining Tie, The Lathe of Heaven
[X] Don't Beg The Lily for help
[X] Infallible Messenger
[X] Demon of the Second Circle
[X] A Dragon of the West
 
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Rihaku said:
Uh... obviously, since the spell takes time to cast?
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Yes, I am making an obvious argument in the face of the claim of "we have effectively infinity sorcereous motes"

...Did he ever actually say "out of combat"? Because this argument was initially started by me saying that it is cheaper for us in terms of motes to cast a lower level spell to achieve a goal. I was not referring to out of combat stuff we can do at our leisure here.
I was thinking of a scenario where we are teleporting into combat, or teleporting to perform a time sensitive/expensive (in motes) task which might as well be treated as combat
(ex, teleport into enemy palace, cast a spell as fast as you can, then get out without being caught).

The argument seems to have drifted away from that to the argument about whether or not we have "infinite sorcerous motes (effectively)". I think what happened is that he never realized that I was thinking of teleporting into combat, while I didn't realize he hadn't considered the possibility.
 
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[X] Upgrade Sepulchral Pearl to "Defining"
[X] Infallible Messenger
[X] Travel Without Distance
[X] Beg The Lily for help
[X] The Sundial Throne [Solar Circle, Ambition 3]
 
So, uh... Nilul is the Ebon Dragon's daughter right? That's like half primordial, even if you can't be half primordial... Unless you can, I wouldn't really know.

So inheriting Odyssial's hatred of Primordials would kind of screw her over wouldn't it? And we shouldn't be able to hide it from her.
 
Orm Embar said:
Presumably it was for a purpose of greater import than simply giving someone a safe voyage home. Anyway, the rest of the proposed Working is viable?
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What sort of effects exactly did you have in mind? There are two general mechanical effects available here -

1) Elevate her to the level of a 3CD immediately, within some limited field.
2) Increase her overall potential to that of a Sidereal or Lunar, allowing her to eventually surpass 3CD-level power (at ~E6), but giving her no additional power right now.

Remember that this is 40,000 committed Solar XP that you won't get back unless Moon dies or is permanently incapacitated, so choose wisely! If you want a buff of the form 2), though, it should probably focus on a higher-level concept than basic elemental channeling or manipulation; something to do with the nature of the being that you are converting her to. For example, you could give her the ability to learn SMA, which would probably involve trappings of a Martial Arts or Sidereal nature.
 
I'd prefer 2) Increase her overall potential to that of a Sidereal or Lunar, allowing her to eventually surpass 3CD-level power (at ~E6), but giving her no additional power right now.

Myself. Especially as we're generally cultivating a lot of power in ourselves already, so having some allies mature as we draw the heat would be wise.
 
SirLagginton said:
Wait, we killed Hektor?

noooooo :(
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They were on opposite sides. I'm sorry.

SirLagginton said:
Have Moon wear it and use it as a conduit for the ritual? Even without the attunement that comes with Evocations from the artifact, the Storm Armor is clearly an item of power.

Also, my vote:

[X] Acquire Defining Tie, "Hatred of the Titans"
[X] Don't Beg The Lily for help
[X] Infallible Messenger
[X] Demon of the Second Circle
[X] A Dragon of the West
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Mm, you can include it cosmetically if you want, but it wouldn't make the blue jade investment any cheaper. Pragmatically speaking you should send it back to Zao so he can use it and be better-defended against assassination.

mrttao said:
Yes, I am making an obvious argument in the face of the claim of "we have effectively infinity sorcereous motes"
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He didn't say "infinite Sorcerous motes," he said that they had no mote cost, which is effectively correct. "Infinite" anything is a strawman that you are attacking.

The bottleneck on Sorcery actions is time, not motes. Sorcerous motes are not drawn from your mote pool. You get them for free when you succeed on Shape Sorcery actions.

And yes, he said outside of combat:

It really doesn't matter if a spell costs 10 or 100 sorcerous motes if you're not casting in combat.
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Elero said:
That requires at least one hour, because there's a cooldown on casting the spell again
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Reread my post, I intentionally didn't say we use the same spell to teleport out. We could summon the horse if we don't care about them finding out we were there once we are done with our deed. Or it might be easier to exit then to enter because security is designed to keep people out rather than in.

Elero said:
And teleporting into combat is a bad idea because we get a -2 Penalty to everything after using the spell.
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I am sure our enemies will be so kind to never place us at a position where we have to do so
 
[X] Upgrade Sepulchral Pearl to "Defining"

We can spend time planning the heavenly heist, think of the TNs! Also hopefully helping recover her memories will provide a nice power boost for her.

[X] Invulnerable Skin of Bronze

Need to work on our tan.

[X] Shadows of the Ancient Past

Shadows was tempting but eh, panic button is pretty useful, not sure on this one though. Changed my mind, let us embrace the shadow

[X] Beg The Lily for help

Dignity? Where is the dignity in accepting inferiority. Plus this is Talomar's big chance, he can finally be somebody!

[X] The Sundial Throne [Solar Circle, Ambition 3]

5x speed? Yes please. Seriously that's just incredible, simply incredible.
 
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Rihaku said:
He didn't say "infinite Sorcerous motes," he said that they had no mote cost, which is effectively correct. "Infinite" anything is a strawman that you are attacking.
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I did no such thing!
Elero said:
mrttao said:
Examples of gathering them were also given, stuff like "drain the unrequited love intimacy someone has of you, can only be done once per 24 hours per person".
Gathering those from the surroundings is not gonna be instant or infinite.
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Yes, yes it is infinite. You can always not use a shaping ritual and just roll (Occult+Int) to gather motes equal to your successes, technically forever.
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In post 3448309 I explained that we do not have infinite sorcerous motes, as a justification for my desire to have a cheaper teleport spell in case we need to teleport into combat, I failed to explicitly explain the "teleport into combat" bit.
In post 3448331 he explicitly replied that we do have infinite sorcerous motes (effectively) because we can just "roll (Occult+Int) to gather motes equal to your successes, technically forever."

Which I have already explained likely stemmed from the fact that he did not realize I was referring to teleporting into combat and assumed leisurely teleport. Also, he did literally use the words infinite
 
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The Sundial Throne is much better for yourself and your friends, but it will certainly not do much to help the overall city of Luseng, beyond an increased Prophecy output from you (if you can afford it or have Shadows of the Ancient Past).

Shadows wouldn't let you get limitless spammable Prophecies, of course; there's only so much history to be learned! But it would provide a good bump for local-scale prophecies in relevant areas, enough to carry you for a month or two (of subjective time) of focused prophesying.

Thomasfoolery said:
Plus this is Talomar's big chance, he can finally be somebody!
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Man, you're really gonna send Talomar away from you? He's your minion! Who is going to get shit done and get snapped at when the tiniest thing goes wrong?
 
Rihaku said:
What sort of effects exactly did you have in mind? There are two general mechanical effects available here -

1) Elevate her to the level of a 3CD immediately, within some limited field.
2) Increase her overall potential to that of a Sidereal or Lunar, allowing her to eventually surpass 3CD-level power (at ~E6), but giving her no additional power right now.

Remember that this is 40,000 committed Solar XP that you won't get back unless Moon dies or is permanently incapacitated, so choose wisely! If you want a buff of the form 2), though, it should probably focus on a higher-level concept than basic elemental channeling or manipulation; something to do with the nature of the being that you are converting her to. For example, you could give her the ability to learn SMA, which would probably involve trappings of a Martial Arts or Sidereal nature.
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I would very much rather have 2, as the long term power of a Celestial Exalt (especially one that is both completely loyal to us and a hard worker, if not really at Uly's level) is not something to be sneezed at. Plus versatility. If we wanted a 3CD, we'd get the Knight in Jade.
 
mrttao said:
In post 3448309 I explained that we do not have infinite sorcerous motes, as a justification for my desire to have a cheaper teleport spell in case we need to teleport into combat
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What do you mean, 'cheaper teleport spell?' Travel Without Distance is the only teleport spell, unless you want to commit an Ambition 3 Solar Circle Working to change that. Otherwise, TWD is how teleportation by means of Sorcery works in Exalted.

Alectai said:
I'd prefer 2) Increase her overall potential to that of a Sidereal or Lunar, allowing her to eventually surpass 3CD-level power (at ~E6), but giving her no additional power right now.

Myself. Especially as we're generally cultivating a lot of power in ourselves already, so having some allies mature as we draw the heat would be wise.
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It would take a long time before the benefits of 2) outweigh the benefits of 1), though. A very long time. The opportunity cost is not just the time, but everything she could have been doing with it!

Anasurimbor said:
She learned some powerful supernatural martial art that cannot be practiced in armor. Zao probably ensured that it was the optimal choice, but I'm still curious what it was.
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Mm, there's not really an optimal among supernatural martial arts, just ones that are better at certain things.
 
Rihaku said:
What do you mean, 'cheaper teleport spell?' Travel Without Distance is the only teleport spell, unless you want to commit an Ambition 3 Solar Circle Working to change that. Otherwise, TWD is how teleportation by means of Sorcery works in Exalted.
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Cheaper than summoning Odyssial's horse. since the side is arguing that we don't need it because odyssial horse is so fast it might as well be super teleport that lets you get anywhere faster than teleporting. (I expressed my uncertainty about it being such)
 
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