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[Exalted, ?] Most High

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Pipeman said:
Zao may lose influence while we do so, but the navy has always been a diminishing force and Zao is totally going to die.
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Says who? We don't have to accept the status quo. We're a Solar, if we kick the universe hard enough, the universe will fall in line. I want Zao to live; he's died the last two times around, and honestly, fuck that noise. Boosting the odds of his survival is a not-insignificant portion of the option's appeal.
Pipeman said:
Seriously though, the ultimate result of this would be that our faction's focus moves very much away from Zao and his political influence, which does seem somewhat appropriate once we start surpassing him in power, especially given how often we've decided that his preferred course of action wasn't a good one.
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What faction? Our faction is basically us, Zao, Moon, Ivory, and maybe Nilul if she's feeling uncharacteristically altruistic. His power is our power; his influence in the Realm is immense, even if 'Hesiesh' has temporarily negated some of that. If we want to help our faction, this is the way to do it. If we're talking about our past decisions, we also chose to stay at Seacrown, drawing from the prestige of the institution and building closer ties with Zao and associates.
Pipeman said:
And while Anys Syn will still (hopefully) get reports of our success, the fact that she is successfully acting against Zao should reassure her. The effects of the Heretical Prophecy are slow moving and subtle enough that they are anything but immediately apparent and, once they do become apparent and even recognizable as a Solar's work, they'll have enough momentum that she needs to deal with them somehow and that she can't get rid of them by moving against us alone.
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Hmm, I wouldn't be too confident that Anys won't recognize the Heresy as a Solar's handiwork; she picked out what Ulyssian did with the Scarlet Flag easily enough, and she's had literally thousands of years to familiarize herself with the results of Solar strategy. Fighting us has been her life's work; there aren't that many Solars with Essence 4, and even fewer with Lore 5. By process of elimination, we're basically the only culprit. As for her moving against us... well, she considered assassinating us if it was convenient, and if we start blatantly making her life inconvenient by attacking the powerbase of the Immaculate Order before we're strong enough to take her on, then she'll strike at us directly. Supporting Zao, sure, he's still nominally on the side of the Realm, but the moment we start spreading heresy? We get Sidereally roundhouse-kicked in the face. Make no mistake, we're not ready for that kind of heat, least of all while we're dealing with Luseng and all its assorted troubles.

One pie in the sky at a time, people. We cannot afford the distraction of incessantly prophesying or the extremely high chance of 'suddenly, deathsquads' right now.
 
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skaro said:
(X) Heresy.

I want to help Zao but we need to attack back.
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Pipeman said:
*Snip reasoning*
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Some pretty good arguments for the Heresy, but like Orm, I disagree somewhat on some points. However, if someone is willing to make an omake/stunt for the Heresy, it could be quite useful in the case it wins so that we get the most use out of it. I'm personally going to write one for the Flag, as I already have some ideas on how it could go.
 
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Orm Embar said:
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What faction? Our faction is basically us, Zao, Moon, Ivory, and maybe Nilul if she's feeling uncharacteristically altruistic. His power is our power; his influence in the Realm is immense, even if 'Hesiesh' has temporarily negated some of that. If we want to help our faction, this is the way to do it. If we're talking about our past decisions, we also chose to stay at Seacrown, drawing from the prestige of the institution and building closer ties with Zao and associates.
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It's still his power we're just mooching off it for now, heresy can allow us to build up our own powerbase with those grassroots movements AND allows to confidently tell Zao to stuff it if he complains about us and Moon since he can't pull the "you have no power except for what I allowed/lent you" card on us.
 
1986ctcel said:
It's still his power we're just mooching off it for now, heresy can allow us to build up our own powerbase with those grassroots movements AND allows to confidently tell Zao to stuff it if he complains about us and Moon since he can't pull the "you have no power except for what I allowed/lent you" card on us.
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Mooching, is it? We've contributed significantly on our own; fighting the Immaculates to preserve Zao's influence, attending the tournament in his name, our previous use of Solar strategy to bolster his fleet that paid off so well for him. You talk of being able to make excuses to Zao like that was some kind of benefit, but if Ulyssian seriously has to tell Zao, his closest ally at present, to stuff anything anywhere then things have gone very wrong.

Also, you realize that this grassroots movement isn't our powerbase, it's just a bunch of Dragon-Blooded who have been getting heretical ideas? They may not have even heard of Ulyssian and certainly don't know he's a Solar. For this option to really have any kind of meaningful benefits apart from marginally inconveniencing Anys, we'd have to reveal our true nature, negating all the effort put into the ruse in the first place.
 
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With these new Evocations, the crown of metis has a lot of utility for us, especially if we combine it with stroke of benevolence. The main uses I see for it is to combine with linguistic or bureaucracy due to the visual when we use it. The crown is kinda obvious, after all. Also, am right in assuming that it looks like a literal crown on uly's head? Combining that visual with presence seems interesting, but we probably need some legitimacy first.

As for how, combine with linguistic to make a leaflet that helps instill an intimacy along the lines of "United we stand, divided we fall".

As for bureaucracy, this place is famously corrupt and inefficient, so we need to do some cleaning up if the war did not bring sufficient changes.
 
Serous said:
With these new Evocations, the crown of metis has a lot of utility for us, especially if we combine it with stroke of benevolence. The main uses I see for it is to combine with linguistic or bureaucracy due to the visual when we use it. The crown is kinda obvious, after all. Also, am right in assuming that it looks like a literal crown on uly's head? Combining that visual with presence seems interesting, but we probably need some legitimacy first.

As for how, combine with linguistic to make a leaflet that helps instill an intimacy along the lines of "United we stand, divided we fall".

As for bureaucracy, this place is famously corrupt and inefficient, so we need to do some cleaning up if the war did not bring sufficient changes.
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There is also the fact that the Crown is a once per scene ten dice free Excellency for any of the Abilities it can be applied to, even to the ones that Ulyssian has maxed out already. The way mote regeneration works normally in 3E (and you don't get many Charms that change that) is that you get 5 motes per turn in combat, 5 per hour outside combat and 10 per hour while meditating/sleeping/otherwise relaxing (or Ulyssian training with Inexhaustible purchased). And Excellencies use one mote per one die they add. That is quite a lot of additional motes to spend during a day, which will allow us to accomplish more without tapping Ulyssian's reserves to too low.
 
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@Rihaku, I've wondering for a while; would Odyssial still have shattered the Godspear and massacred Luna's subforms if he hadn't been Heartlessness 10? We know that Greatness 10 was why he was able to do it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the constant reach for more power without considering consequences in the prologue hadn't screwed Creation's literal last lines of defense.
 
Orm Embar said:
Mooching, is it? We've contributed significantly on our own; fighting the Immaculates to preserve Zao's influence, attending the tournament in his name, our previous use of Solar strategy to bolster his fleet that paid off so well for him. You talk of being able to make excuses to Zao like that was some kind of benefit, but if Ulyssian seriously has to tell Zao, his closest ally at present, to stuff anything anywhere then things have gone very wrong.
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O rly? We've constantly done to stuff that pisses him off because we thought our way is better (INCLUDING continuing to associate with Moon in private along with the immaculate's challenge and such) so I don't see where you get the idea that we're some good two shoes following Zao's orders.

Orm Embar said:
Also, you realize that this grassroots movement isn't our powerbase, it's just a bunch of Dragon-Blooded who have been getting heretical ideas? They may not have even heard of Ulyssian and certainly don't know he's a Solar. For this option to really have any kind of meaningful benefits apart from marginally inconveniencing Anys, we'd have to reveal our true nature, negating all the effort put into the ruse in the first place.
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THATS THE POINT, this whole thing is so we can rule OPENLY (and stop the Wyld Hunt from slaughtering other Solars and Lunars) and make it so that if we ever ARE revealed all our accomplishments won't turn to dust like so many people have been going on about (which is why you and others didn't want to go to the River province)
 
1986ctcel said:
O rly? We've constantly done to stuff that pisses him off because we thought our way is better (INCLUDING continuing to associate with Moon in private along with the immaculate's challenge and such) so I don't see where you get the idea that we're some good two shoes following Zao's orders.
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I never claimed that, but the idea that distancing ourselves from him when he's helped us immensely and sheltered us from reprisal is somehow a good thing? That, I just don't get. Are we such an ingrate that we can't even be bothered to repay a tremendous debt, so spiteful that we must jump at the chance to spit in the eye of our enemies even when doing so is unwise and has a significant chance of getting us killed?
1986ctcel said:
THATS THE POINT, this whole thing is so we can rule OPENLY (and stop the Wyld Hunt from slaughtering other Solars and Lunars) and make it so that if we ever ARE revealed all our accomplishments won't turn to dust like so many people have been going on about (which is why you and others didn't want to go to the River province)
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And that is a very, very long term goal, one that we might not even wind up pursuing, not when there are so many other viable candidates for the throne. Some of those Solars and Lunars are genuine threats to Creation, and this heresy will weaken the Realm as a whole. Does Ulyssian even want to rule? Why in Creation must we do this now, when there are so many other matters that demand our attention and allies in need of aid?
 
meianmaru said:
There is also the fact that the Crown is a once per scene ten dice free Excellency for any of the Abilities it can be applied to, even to the ones that Ulyssian has maxed out already. The way mote regeneration works normally in 3E (and you don't get many Charms that change that) is that you get 5 motes per turn in combat, 5 per hour outside combat and 10 per hour while meditating/sleeping/otherwise relaxing (or Ulyssian training with Inexhaustible purchased). And Excellencies use one mote per one die they add. That is quite a lot of additional motes to spend during a day, which will allow us to accomplish more without tapping Ulyssian's reserves to too low.
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Indeed, he also gets 5m from Saint and Killer Awakening, and 5 effective motes from War-Binding of Eternity (x2). It's as good as 3E mote pool expansion gets without dedicated Essence reactor trees.

Cytokinesis said:
@Rihaku, I've wondering for a while; would Odyssial still have shattered the Godspear and massacred Luna's subforms if he hadn't been Heartlessness 10? We know that Greatness 10 was why he was able to do it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the constant reach for more power without considering consequences in the prologue hadn't screwed Creation's literal last lines of defense.
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That's more a matter of Greatness and the actions you chose rather than Heartlessness. They attacked him, so of course he fought back, and why would he hold back? If he'd won it's not as if the Fae and Yozis / Neverborn could have done anything to Creation with Odyssial still alive.

Odyssial did have contingencies in place if he lost. But his plan was to win.
 
Rihaku said:
Indeed, he also gets 5m from Saint and Killer Awakening, and 5 effective motes from War-Binding of Eternity (x2). It's as good as 3E mote pool expansion gets without dedicated Essence reactor trees.



That's more a matter of Greatness and the actions you chose rather than Heartlessness. They attacked him, so of course he fought back, and why would he hold back? If he'd won it's not as if the Fae and Yozis / Neverborn could have done anything to Creation with Odyssial still alive.

Odyssial did have contingencies in place if he lost. But his plan was to win.
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So if UCS is cripple in a fight,Who is kill Ody in the last fight?.
 
I guess I'll vote for
[X] Scarlet Flag prophecy

We spent prophecies protecting the navy already, might as well build on that. And while it is perhaps the expected move, it will at least reassure Syn that we're not pulling something crazy tricky.
 
What's the current vote count?

skaro said:
So if UCS is cripple in a fight,Who is kill Ody in the last fight?.
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He cripplied UCS during the fight, not before. But you don't know who killed Odyssial originally.
Guile said:
I guess I'll vote for
[X] Scarlet Flag prophecy

We spent prophecies protecting the navy already, might as well build on that. And while it is perhaps the expected move, it will at least reassure Syn that we're not pulling something crazy tricky.
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But do you want her to be reassured??
 
skaro said:
I mean we should know Right?We choose perfect merge personality afterall.
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That's been addressed both in the thread and in updates.

Deadly Snark said:
Well an enemy who is reassured is one who lets down some of their guard just a little bit. And also one that feels safer taking risks. Both of which are things we can take advantage of.
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Risks can pay off! Especially if you're in no position to contest them, as Hesiesh so aptly demonstrated.
 
Orm Embar said:
I never claimed that, but the idea that distancing ourselves from him when he's helped us immensely and sheltered us from reprisal is somehow a good thing? That, I just don't get. Are we such an ingrate that we can't even be bothered to repay a tremendous debt, so spiteful that we must jump at the chance to spit in the eye of our enemies even when doing so is unwise and has a significant chance of getting us killed?
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It's called growing up and I'd say we've already repayed a lot of our "debt" by focusing our prophecy powers on helping the academy and the Navy and not letting Zao be weakened by sheltering us from the Immaculates, besides while neither prophecy benefits us trying to stay alive and winning the three-front war, the Scarlet Flag only helps Zao keep some piddling "influence" instead of weakening Anys so Zao can help wear away at her while we're gone and I REALLY doubt he'd appreciate us "wasting" our prophecy fussing over someone who likely believes he can take care of himself just fine instead of giving up the chance to deal a decisive blow against our enemies.
 
You are very powerful now, I'm not even sure you need more combat Charms to go up alone with no support against your current foes, at least versus one faction at a time...
 
1986ctcel said:
It's called growing up and I'd say we've already repayed a lot of our "debt" by focusing our prophecy powers on helping the academy and the Navy and not letting Zao be weakened by sheltering us from the Immaculates, besides while neither prophecy benefits us trying to stay alive and winning the three-front war
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No, but the Scarlet Flag at least doesn't take time and energy away from winning the war by needing to be constantly maintained. A lack of a penalty is still a net gain.
1986ctcel said:
the Scarlet Flag only helps Zao keep some piddling "influence" instead of weakening Anys so Zao can help wear away at her while we're gone
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... Zao can't help wear away at her while we're gone if he's tied up preventing sabotage to his influence.
1986ctcel said:
and I REALLY doubt he'd appreciate us "wasting" our prophecy fussing over someone who likely believes he can take care of himself just fine instead of giving up the chance to deal a decisive blow against our enemies.
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The option explicitly says that he will be grateful to us for helping him in his time of need. The blow is by no means decisive, it lays the groundwork for bigger things, but if you believe we can cripple Anys with just this, you're deluding yourself. The time to fight her will come, but that time isn't now. When it does, I'd prefer to actually have a leg to stand on in the Realm, as opposed to being completely ostracized because we're associated with Zao.
 
Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X] The Grand Heretical Prophecy
No. of votes: 29
Usernames, afterthought53, Robotninja, CrawlingChaos74, Coaxmetal, veekie, Katreus, andres, Elero, gigantisrex, trekbook, jamie96969, 1986ctcel, arrepio, Thomasfoolery, inventive alias, Diller, Anasurimbor, Gerrou, Brekouh, LordOfMurder, Dark Lord Bob, Reckless_Sun, cyberswordsmen, vel10, CrossyCross, kinglugia, Artemisnemo, Kraken

[X] The Scarlet Flag Prophecy
No. of votes: 27
sithmor, Mannan, SirLagginton, Cavalier, Yun, VanusDraco, me.me.here, TMIoverload, Vitaris, Gaudy Guise, CharlBaal, Alectai, Random Asian Person, Serous, The Nomad, meianmaru, Orm Embar, Daniel14541, Savonarola, arsdraconis, dragon, DakkaMania, Tonaris, Dream Logic, inawarminister, Guile, Valor

[X] The Three Kingdoms Prophecy
No. of votes: 2
Van Ropen, Aloysius
 
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Rihaku said:
You are very powerful now, I'm not even sure you need more combat Charms to go up alone with no support against your current foes, at least versus one faction at a time...
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Like you used to said ,Ody is the most powerful in creation but not when face with creation combine force.

Ully can put down by enough power and number enemy.
 
1986ctcel said:
It's called growing up and I'd say we've already repayed a lot of our "debt" by focusing our prophecy powers on helping the academy and the Navy and not letting Zao be weakened by sheltering us from the Immaculates, besides while neither prophecy benefits us trying to stay alive and winning the three-front war, the Scarlet Flag only helps Zao keep some piddling "influence" instead of weakening Anys so Zao can help wear away at her while we're gone and I REALLY doubt he'd appreciate us "wasting" our prophecy fussing over someone who likely believes he can take care of himself just fine instead of giving up the chance to deal a decisive blow against our enemies.
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'Piddling influence'? That's a funny way to describe a stranglehold on the largest fighting force in the largest empire in the world.
 
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