[Exalted, ?] Most High

[Orm Embar]

I voted for [X] Fury (but maybe with some emotive Grief and in there; he doesn't have to blame himself to mourn his fallen kin)

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Ah, you voted for unarmed in a later post, and that apparently overwrote your earlier one. This bloody script... Anyway, the count's been updated.

Given that Guilt only has three votes so far I doubt we'll going to win but I'll just say this, do you really want an Odyssial at 9.7 Greatness running around with no morals? I mean seriously from the sounds of it he very nearly won when the Usurpation came a calling the first time, just think about how much creation would suffer if he had time to pull an extended campaign against it at 9.7 Greatness.

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Against Creation? The enemy is the Terrestrial Host and their duplicitous puppetmasters; any collateral damage is purely incidental. It's not as though Heartlessness changes Odyssial's objectives, it merely raises the limits on what he's willing to do in pursuit of them.

 

[Rihaku]

I'm now further encouraged to vote for Coldness.

A question about Coldness:
If Ody anticipated liking someone/needing a relationship with them/felt some inkling of positive emotions towards them, would Coldness allow him to act in a way designed to encourage them to reach a stage where his personality could value them/be friends with them? Like, if he met some young Sidereal and went (incredibly paraphrased) "I like you, you've got spunk." would it be IC for him to enact some plans that in the future might allow that Sidereal to ascend to the ranks of Odyssial's friends?

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Well, it's also a matter of priorities. Why bother wasting time with other people when you could use that time to become stronger?

Given that Guilt only has three votes so far I doubt we'll going to win but I'll just say this, do you really want an Odyssial at 9.7 Greatness running around with no morals? I mean seriously from the sounds of it he very nearly won when the Usurpation came a calling the first time, just think about how much creation would suffer if he had time to pull an extended campaign against it at 9.7 Greatness.

From the sounds of it Nio was the very definition of spunk so I don't think he'd closely associate with anyone who isn't strong enough.

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I think if you guys go Full Greatness you might be able to get it to 9.8 or even 9.9 (or heaven forbid, 10). Depends on how many more updates it takes before the Prelude is resolved. Could be as short as one long-ish update.

So, on fighting itself, it seems like Skirmish would be the better option. As soon as we actually manage to really wound this guy, he'll start fighting seriously. So Odyssial will die.

Our best shot seems to be killing him in one attack more than anything else. Ody's strength appears to be planning time, and Skirmish will get him just that (admittedly, not as much as he would probably like).

Going into melee sounds nice at first, until you realize Ody isn't likely to be able to keep up long enough to actually kill this thing.

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Well, if you wound him REALLY badly, it could be enough to make up for his going serious. Especially with better stunts, more Willpower, etc. Write-in stunts would actually help your chances a lot, in cases where ingenuity can't help too much!

 

[Alectai]

I'm now further encouraged to vote for Coldness.

A question about Coldness:
If Ody anticipated liking someone/needing a relationship with them/felt some inkling of positive emotions towards them, would Coldness allow him to act in a way designed to encourage them to reach a stage where his personality could value them/be friends with them? Like, if he met some young Sidereal and went (incredibly paraphrased) "I like you, you've got spunk." would it be IC for him to enact some plans that in the future might allow that Sidereal to ascend to the ranks of Odyssial's friends?

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The problem is that Coldness Odyssial's standards would be too high.

Look at the One Being in Existence in the original setting that he would bother giving the time of day to, someone who eventually hit Essence 9 over time, when at the time, at the height of the First Age, Ingosh Silverclaws (One of the most renowned Lunars), topped out at Eight.

He's... Less likely to make an investment unless he's absolutely sure he can control the investment, and that it's worth his time, and Exalts are just Too hard to predict for you to figure out if fostering a specific one over a long period of time will end up being worthwhile. Sidereals just do things too differently to him for him to adequately control their growth, so he's unlikely to spend the time and energy bothering.

Fury is still efficient, but he's actually capable of giving a shit to people outside of "Does this improve my optimization" or "Does the net utility of this relationship make it worthy of the time and energy to foster it". He doesn't Quite become nothing but a utility driven optimization machine, though he still maximizes his utility where possible, because he's still Odyssial.

I'd say Heartlessness 5-6ish would be reasonable, especially as we can still hit "Fully optimized original setting Odyssial" even if we don't completely go all in on that, and he was pretty much the most unstoppable sonofabitch in Creation there.

He was Also one of the poster boys for why the Usurpation was Necessary. Because overwhelming power divorced of anything but optimization towards a goal tends to tread over a lot of things in the way.

 

[Ridiculously Average Guy]

So, if coldness wins, will Ody use a corpse as ablative armor?

Possibly sticking the daggers in it so as to confuse the Daeva's dangersense when he has his superheated sword behind it?

 

[Da Boyz]

Against Creation? The enemy is the Terrestrial Host and their duplicitous puppetmasters; any collateral damage is purely incidental. It's not as though Heartlessness changes Odyssial's objectives, it merely raises the limits on what he's willing to do in pursuit of them.

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You don't kill millions without inflicting some serious collateral damage, I really don't want Odyssials last fuck you to tear apart a Direction.

 

[Rihaku]

So, if coldness wins, will Ody use a corpse as ablative armor?

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Probably way too heavy, and Larsyifex's swords are sharp. You're gonna have to rely on parrying / dodging, or wounding him badly enough.

Possibly sticking the daggers in it so as to confuse the Daeva's dangersense when he has his superheated sword behind it?

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Larsyifex senses hostile intent, not weapons or anything like that. If he had pure danger-sense, of course, he wouldn't sense stuff that doesn't actually endanger him.

 

[Ridiculously Average Guy]

Larsyifex senses hostile intent, not weapons or anything like that. If he had pure danger-sense, of course, he wouldn't sense stuff that doesn't actually endanger him.

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...Would he sense if Ody was aiming behind him?

 

[Da Boyz]

Probably way too heavy, and Larsyifex's swords are sharp. You're gonna have to rely on parrying / dodging, or wounding him badly enough.

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How durable are the lightning gems?

 

[Dark Lord Bob]

I've been saving this argument, hoping not to use it, but it seems I must:
If we choose Fury, we can't befriend Alveua, as we will hate all demons. And Ody intends to pass himself on to Uly.

On the other hand, with Coldness we intend to (once we have the power, which we will as strongest being in existence) forge a world where "the warmth of emotional attachment is worth the risks of vulnerability, where weaknesses go unpunished, and where the truly innocent can smile without being foolishly naive".

 

[Alectai]

I've been saving this argument, hoping not to use it, but it seems I must:
If we choose Fury, we can't befriend Alveua, as we will hate all demons. And Ody intends to pass himself on to Uly.

On the other hand, with Coldness we intend to (once we have the power, which we will as strongest being in existence) forge a world where "the warmth of emotional attachment is worth the risks of vulnerability, where weaknesses go unpunished, and where the truly innocent can smile without being foolishly naive".

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"The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Odyssial hit that point in the original timeline, he obviously failed to follow through when he was the kingpin of Creation when he was the strongest.

Keep that in mind before arguing "He'll totally turn around and forge a world like that" when he Didn't in the original timeline, even when absolutely nothing could effectively gainsay him. The logic of one who has cast aside their humanity for power tends to get warped.

 

[Rihaku]

...Would he sense if Ody was aiming behind him?

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If Odyssial intends an action that is hostile to Larsyifex, including any actions that he reasonably believes will cause Larsyifex to come to harm, that counts as hostile.

How durable are the lightning gems?

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They're pretty tough, like gemstones.

I've been saving this argument, hoping not to use it, but it seems I must:
If we choose Fury, we can't befriend Alveua, as we will hate all demons. And Ody intends to pass himself on to Uly.

On the other hand, with Coldness we intend to (once we have the power, which we will as strongest being in existence) forge a world where "the warmth of emotional attachment is worth the risks of vulnerability, where weaknesses go unpunished, and where the truly innocent can smile without being foolishly naive".

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Well, he could have demon allies that he's inflicted Stockholm Syndrome-esque terror on? "FUCK my creator, I'm not going up against this guy!" It's not so much that they want to be on his side, they just REALLY don't want to be on the side he's against.

 

[Orm Embar]

You don't kill millions without inflicting some serious collateral damage, I really don't want Odyssials last fuck you to tear apart a Direction.

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I don't see him as the kind of person who'd just destroy a Direction for the hell of it. Sadism is inefficient, after all.

 

[Alectai]

I don't see him as the kind of person who'd just destroy a Direction for the hell of it. Sadism is inefficient, after all.

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He absolutely would destroy a Direction though if he felt he would gain some worthwhile utility out of it, like devastating his attackers so he could disappear and continue his battle.

 

[Rihaku]

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Odyssial hit that point in the original timeline, he obviously failed to follow through when he was the kingpin of Creation when he was the strongest.

Keep that in mind before arguing "He'll totally turn around and forge a world like that" when he Didn't in the original timeline, even when absolutely nothing could effectively gainsay him. The logic of one who has cast aside their humanity for power tends to get warped.

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Well, he was the single most powerful entity in Creation, but not stronger than the rest of Creation combined.

However, your argument is correct in that Coldness!Odyssial will not achieve the heights of power he is seeking, even at Greatness 10. At least not during the First Age.

 

[Da Boyz]

I don't see him as the kind of person who'd just destroy a Direction for the hell of it. Sadism is inefficient, after all.

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If he has consolidated forces loyal to the Deliberative in the South and the DB's are grouped in Meru you better believe that the Blessed Isles going to be dust.

 

[Alectai]

Well, he was the single most powerful entity in Creation, but not stronger than the rest of Creation combined.

However, your argument is correct in that Coldness!Odyssial will not achieve the heights of power he is seeking, even at Greatness 10. At least not during the First Age.

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The fact that you must qualify him with "Must be stronger then the rest of Creation combined before accomplishing his goal", sort of suggests that his ultimate endgame would end with "Will require me to go against the entirety of Creation".

That has kind of troubling implications. Especially as a theoretical Greatness 10 Coldness Odyssial Still won't be able to pull it off, and that sort of implies that he's competent enough to actually have a gameplan, and has the logic to relatively accurately gauge the level of opposition he will encounter.

If he still won't hit the point where he can make a "Better World", at Greatness 10, then there are serious concerns to be raised about the priorities of his logic.

 

[Orm Embar]

He absolutely would destroy a Direction though if he felt he would gain some worthwhile utility out of it, like devastating his attackers so he could disappear and continue his battle.

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Sure. All I claimed is that he wouldn't do it just for the sake of doing so.

If he has consolidated forces loyal to the Deliberative in the South and the DB's are grouped in Meru you better believe that the Blessed Isles going to be dust.

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Perhaps. But that assumes main force is the only tool in Odyssial's repertoire, which is far from the case; damage to the Elemental Pole of Earth could destabilize all Creation, so perhaps he'd merely opt to assassinate their command structure, or release a plague, or turn the gods against them. That's the thing about competence: it gives you options.

I don't particularly care whether or not he's a monster, honestly; it makes for a more compelling narrative if Odyssial was as terrible as he was great. I have a soft spot in the withered thing that occasionally passes itself off as a heart for well-intentioned monsters.

 

[Alectai]

Sure. All I claimed is that he wouldn't do it just for the sake of doing so.

Perhaps. But that assumes main force is the only tool in Odyssial's repertoire, which is far from the case; damage to the Elemental Pole of Earth could destabilize all Creation, so perhaps he'd opt to assassinate their command structure, or release a plague, or turn the gods against them.

I don't particularly care whether or not he's a monster, honestly; it makes for a more compelling narrative if Odyssial was as terrible as he was great.

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You can still get "Terrible, but Great", without diving completely off of the deep end. Frankly, I'm perfectly in favor of having a guy who's character trait is raging against the injustice of a cruel world, while still having at least one or two lines he won't cross.

 

[Dark Lord Bob]

I don't particularly care whether or not he's a monster, honestly; it makes for a more compelling narrative if Odyssial was as terrible as he was great.

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It's weird when you've got axiomatic differences when arguing; I personally don't care at all about how "evil" Odyssial becomes or how much suffering he causes, but I can't just reply with "So?" when people mention that stuff because that isn't effective arguing.

It's frustrating.

 

[Rihaku]

The fact that you must qualify him with "Must be stronger then the rest of Creation combined before accomplishing his goal", sort of suggests that his ultimate endgame would end with "Will require me to go against the entirety of Creation".

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Well yeah, think about all the entrenched interests that like things just the way they are! The Celestial Bureaucracy, the Incarnae? What does Shun the Smiling Lady say about the nature of love in this world?

That has kind of troubling implications. Especially as a theoretical Greatness 10 Coldness Odyssial Still won't be able to pull it off, and that sort of implies that he's competent enough to actually have a gameplan, and has the logic to relatively accurately gauge the level of opposition he will encounter.

If he still won't hit the point where he can make a "Better World", at Greatness 10, then there are serious concerns to be raised about the priorities of his logic.

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Remaking the world is no easy endeavor, and he certainly wouldn't settle for a world that's merely marginally better.

 

[Rihaku]

Granted, he could try to convince everyone that the remade world will be better. But what Odyssial is relatively bad at? Social interaction that does not involve terrifying his opposition into helplessness, especially honest social interaction. What, on the other hand, is he very, very good at?

Becoming more powerful.

 

[Dark Lord Bob]

Unless you have very high Heartlessness, it's going to be difficult to control your emotions well enough to fully conceal the existence of a trap from something like Larsyifex.

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Well, remember that your stealth doesn't work against him unless you have sufficient Heartlessness, or he's humoring you.

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How well do these apply to the present situation, and would +2 Heartlessness be sufficient to achieve them?

 

[Orm Embar]

You can still get "Terrible, but Great", without diving completely off of the deep end. Frankly, I'm perfectly in favor of having a guy who's character trait is raging against the injustice of a cruel world, while still having at least one or two lines he won't cross.

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I was teetering on the fence between Fury and Coldness for a while, honestly, and I can see how both would be interesting... but Fury burns out. It's a short-term objective. We fight the War, we win, life goes on, and the First Age ensues. Nothing changes, not truly. Perhaps the world is less inimical to life under Solar rule, but the fundamental issue that plagued Odyssial during his mortal existence endures: the sheer uncaring cruelty of Creation. The world is not inherently just.

Coldness addresses that underlying problem. Yes, we know that he won't succeed (at least not yet), but we already know the broad strokes of history. The Usurpation is going to happen; does that invalidate all our efforts? No. Think about what the choice says about Odyssial as a person. We spout aphorisms like 'life isn't fair' and talk of having the grace to accept the things we cannot change, but Odyssial can change this. He can remake the world. That it requires monumental sacrifice and dedication does not obviate the possibility. I think that possibility is worth striving for, even if it means continents must be razed to their bedrock and rivals beyond counting must be ruined utterly. In fact, I think it's more poignant that this beautiful future requires so much cruelty to be actualized. Perhaps that makes me twisted, but it's my truthful opinion.

So... I guess what I'm saying is that Coldness is the guy raging against the injustice of a cruel world. It's just a very cold rage and there are fewer lines.

 

[Rihaku]

If he has consolidated forces loyal to the Deliberative in the South and the DB's are grouped in Meru you better believe that the Blessed Isles going to be dust.

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Hm, canon Odyssial was primarily a solo operative, I don't see him fighting the Usurpation with actual armies. On the other hand, you guys well could. I don't intend to get into too much detail about Odyssial's first age rule, since it'll be more fun to discover as Ulyssian in the aftermath.

 

[Guile]

I was teetering on the fence between Fury and Coldness for a while, honestly, and I can see how both would be interesting... but Fury burns out. It's a short-term objective. We fight the War, we win, life goes on, and the First Age ensues. Nothing changes, not truly. Perhaps the world is less inimical to life under Solar rule, but the fundamental issue that plagued Odyssial during his mortal existence endures: the sheer uncaring cruelty of Creation. The world is not inherently just.

Coldness addresses that underlying problem. Yes, we know that he won't succeed (at least not yet), but we already know the broad strokes of history. The Usurpation is going to happen; does that invalidate all our efforts? No. Think about what the choice says about Odyssial as a person. We spout aphorisms like 'life isn't fair' and talk of having the grace to accept the things we cannot change, but Odyssial can change this. He can remake the world. That it requires monumental sacrifice and dedication does not obviate the possibility. I think that possibility is worth striving for, even if it means continents must be razed to their bedrock and rivals beyond counting must be ruined utterly. In fact, I think it's more poignant that this beautiful future requires so much cruelty to be actualized. Perhaps that makes me twisted, but it's my truthful opinion.

So... I guess what I'm saying is that Coldness is the guy raging against the injustice of a cruel world. It's just a very cold rage and there are fewer lines.

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The benefit of being a quest protagonist:
We can choose other goals after our short-term goals (you know, slay the countless armies of the architects of Creation, wade through the oceans of blood spilled on both sides to cast them down, usher in something briefly resembling a golden age, rule all of Creation) are completed. There will be other objectives.