Evil is Coming - Youjo Senki/Dresden Files

[Genesys]

Of course, why he hasn't latched on to the part where Tanya comes from another world, and as such is an Outsider, might have something to do with that, as well as his first contact with such an Outsider being a woman. Still, the other wizards will have a definite interest in such information. I expect Harry to want to keep this conflict away from the attentions of the White Council for this reason.

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Dresdenverse contains parallel universes that are still within Creation and not Outside, if I remember right. Don't quote me on that, but I'm pretty sure Outsiders are somewhere along the lines of 'defies laws of this reality' blah blah, as opposed to beings from a parallel universe.
Or, in short, the Outsiders are the Eldrazi, and everyone else who originates from a plane is not one.

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

The definition of outsider in DF is basically cosmic horror. She is simply from far away in the nevernever and thus not outside enough.
If you can look at it and not lose SAN points it isn't an outsider.

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But it is still forbidden to open the Outer Gates, and the only punishment is death. Common sense would dictate that people who come from Outside and don't know these rules should be exempted until informed, but I think we all know the White Council's attitude to that defence.
[edit] In hindsight, the White Council obviously can't allow any reinforcements to the Youjo Senki world, as that would necessarily involve opening the Outer Gates, as would going anywhere else to request reinforcement from there. And Tanya would know this as well, thanks to Harry's helpful pamphlet.

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

Dresdenverse contains parallel universes that are still within Creation and not Outside.

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Well, yeah, there's the fairy world, and the underworld maybe, but those are part of the "local multiverse", not from beyond the Gates. There's been no indication of Dresden-verse metaphysics or monsters in the Youjo Senki-verse. But I suppose the two worlds could be "close" enough not to be separated by the Outer Gates by author fiat if nothing else.

 

[SkyCrab]

But it is still forbidden to open the Outer Gates, and the only punishment is death. Common sense would dictate that people who come from Outside and don't know these rules should be exempted until informed, but I think we all know the White Council's attitude to that defence.
[edit] In hindsight, the White Council obviously can't allow any reinforcements to the Youjo Senki world, as that would necessarily involve opening the Outer Gates, as would going anywhere else to request reinforcement from there. And Tanya would know this as well, thanks to Harry's helpful pamphlet.

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Would it involve opening the outer gates? I thought that Tanya is just from another part of the multiverse, with outsiders being creatures from outside of the multiverse and the outer gates being the metaphorical wall keeping them out. Don't get me wrong, the white council definitely isn't going to be happy, just like you said, and would try to kill her, but contact between the two worlds shouldn't involve opening the outer gates.

 

[cyberswordsmen]

But it is still forbidden to open the Outer Gates, and the only punishment is death. Common sense would dictate that people who come from Outside and don't know these rules should be exempted until informed, but I think we all know the White Council's attitude to that defence.
[edit] In hindsight, the White Council obviously can't allow any reinforcements to the Youjo Senki world, as that would necessarily involve opening the Outer Gates, as would going anywhere else to request reinforcement from there. And Tanya would know this as well, thanks to Harry's helpful pamphlet.

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If it she is anything that could remotely be described as a person she is from his side of the gates.

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

If she is anything that could remotely be described as a person she is from his side of the gates.

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but contact between the two worlds shouldn't involve opening the outer gates.

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We could trawl through the Dresden lore to try to determine if the Outside is more like the Warp or the Blind Eternities, but in the end Yinko will be the one to decide. Irregardless, I maintain that the White Council will at least want to take a very close look for magical misbehaviour.
And speaking of, "Thou Shalt Not Kill". One wonders if magically enhancing bullets qualify as killing with magic.

 

[Pai]

Silly Dresden, Her full name is Tanya the Evil.

Make sure you use a capital E.

 

[deadpan29]

I don't really want to argue about it. But I'm getting tired of people saying thatYoujo Senki is World War II. Yes I know that's how it is in the Manga and Anime. But in the light novels, it definitely has more of a World War One feel; especially since in the first episode we see trench warfare

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It's one and half, the whole setting happens in the 1930's . I don't exactly recall paradrops in WWI, for example or using submarines for covert operations, radar, man portable radio etc...

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It's a different world with a different timeline and it's not actually WWI or WWII, the Empire she fights for isn't actually Germany, etc.

That being said, the feel is more WWI than WWII, because it's their first world war.

 

[MrCogmor]

Well, yeah, there's the fairy world, and the underworld maybe, but those are part of the "local multiverse", not from beyond the Gates. There's been no indication of Dresden-verse metaphysics or monsters in the Youjo Senki-verse. But I suppose the two worlds could be "close" enough not to be separated by the Outer Gates by author fiat if nothing else.

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According to Bob the world of Spiderman is somewhere in the Nevernever.

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

According to Bob the world of Spiderman is somewhere in the Nevernever.

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Citation?

 

[MrCogmor]

Citation?

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Edit: Found it.

"We live in strange times," Bob said philosophically. "They're peers, of a sort, Harry. Hey, word is that even the Almighty and Lucifer worked a deal on Job. Spider-Man has teamed up with the Sandman before. Luke and Vader did the Emperor. It happens."
"Spider-Man is pretend and doesn't count," I said.
"You start drawing distinctions like this now?" Bob asked. "Besides, he's real. Like, somewhere."
I blinked. "Um. What?"
"You think your universe is the only universe? Harry, come on. Creation, totally freaking huge. Room enough for you and Spider-Man both." He spread his hands. "Look, I'm not a faith guy. I don't know what happens on the other side, or if you wind up going to a Heaven or Hell or something reasonably close to them. That isn't my bag. But I know a shell game when I see one."

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Also related

"It's more than that," I said. "Creatures out of the Nevernever are a part of our reality, our universe. They can get pretty bizarre, but they have a membership card. Outsiders come from someplace else."

Thomas shrugged. "What's the difference?"

"They're smarter. Tougher. Harder to kill."

"You handled that one pretty well. Didn't look so tough."

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[deadpan29]

It's one and half, the whole setting happens in the 1930's . I don't exactly recall paradrops in WWI, for example or using submarines for covert operations, radar, man portable radio etc...

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On that subject, I think the author chose the 1930's for the point in this AU timeline so he could pull elements from WWI and WWII as suited the story and for whatever he thought had a higher "cool" factor. Again, the cultural feel and political situation looks more like WWI as this world apparently hasn't had a world war before now and the the war seems to be because of politics and national pride rather than any sort of ideology driving any side. Part of the dynamic of the story is that most of the world has a pre-WWI "glory of war" view of things, while Tanya has a more modern "war is hell" mindset. This is a big factor in why she's so effectively ruthless.

Edit - Other thoughts:

Tanya has an edge on almost any other mortal mage when it comes to physical combat. The effectiveness of her shields, that she can raise them fast enough to intercept bullets, her speed and maneuverability, fire power, etc. The members of her unit aren't all that far behind her in these areas. However, her abilities are almost entirely physical. The local wizards can do all sort of odd esoteric stuff to try to bypass or nullify her advantages.

Tanya and her group are also a small unit trying to take on the world, and it's a big world with a lot of big players. I covered how she compares to the local mortal wizards in the previous paragraph, but there are a lot of non-human powers that tend to be major physical and mystical muscle as well.

That being said, I do wonder what Tanya's real angle on all this is. Remember, her main goals are to have a comfortable life where she isn't in constant danger, and to defy "Being X". She's not really motivated by any sort of loyalty to the Empire or a desire to protect it. She doesn't actually want to take on this new world or pick fights with the locals, but she may have been speaking the truth as she saw it about this conflict being inevitable.

Finally, what I'm most looking forward to is if/when she finds out about and starts interacting with the Knights of the Cross or other agents of God. That may be what makes or breaks this story for me.

 

[Space Penguin]

That being said, I do wonder what Tanya's real angle on all this is. Remember, her main goals are to have a comfortable life where she isn't in constant danger, and to defy "Being X". She's not really motivated by any sort of loyalty to the Empire or a desire to protect it. She doesn't actually want to take on this new world or pick fights with the locals, but she may have been speaking the truth as she saw it about this conflict being inevitable.

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I don't know. She seems to not ever consider the idea of just running away or something. It could well be that once she is part of something she stays with it it hell or highwater or this could be just for things she likes. Nothing in the Empire is particularly disagreeable for her.

Finally, what I'm most looking forward to is if/when she finds out about and starts interacting with the Knights of the Cross or other agents of God. That may be what makes or breaks this story for me.

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In what way? Tanya may think religious people are deluded but she does not go out of her way to attack religious people or burn churches. Hell she goes into a church to curse God. Her attitude is extremely reasonable unlike militant atheists. She despises God cause he keeps making her suffer and testing her cause he says so.

Anyway, lets focus on Tanya a bit.

There are tons of misperceptions about her and the Empire.

1] First, she did not kill the 2 soldiers in the 1st episode cause lol evil. They disobeyed her in direct combat so they could kill some worthless artillery piece. She gave them mercy despite the below:

899. Article 99. MISBEHAVIOR BEFORE THE ENEMY

Any person subject to this chapter who before or in the presence of the enemy–(1) runs away;
(2) shamefully abandons, surrenders, or delivers up any command, unit, place, or military property which it is his duty to defend;
(3) through disobedience, neglect, or intentional misconduct endangers the safety of any such command, unit, place, or military property;
(4) casts away his arms or ammunition;
(5) is guilty of cowardly conduct;
(6) quits his place of duty to plunder or pillage;
(7) causes false alarms in any command, unit, or place under control of the armed forces;
(8) willfully fails to do his utmost to encounter, engage, capture, or destroy any enemy troops, combatants, vessels, aircraft, or any other thing, which it is his duty so to encounter, engage, capture, or destroy; or
(9) does not afford all practicable relief and assistance to any troops, combatants, vessels, or aircraft of the armed forces belonging to the United States or their allies when engaged in battle;

shall be punished by death or such punishment as a court- martial may direct.

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And this is apparently current US military law. How much more strict would old WW1 laws are? She gave them a chance for mercy by just having them go home but again they disobey her rather vehemently and she lost her patience with them. And assigned them to a dangerous location but again it was a 50/50 chance they would have been killed, its not like she orchestrated with the enemy to have them bombed. And this is from the anime which is apparently more exorbitant in showing Tanya as evil

2] Arene, the city that was killed. First, Tanya did not manipulate the situation so that Arene could die. She wrote a fucking thesis that was used to create the Arene plan while back in officer college. She has been shown to do this before, we had the high generals discuss a work of her's were it improved the Empire's logistics. The Arene plan was her just writing a thesis about Urban warfare and how its an utter shitshow that can destroy armies and that its best not to get dragged into it. Just bomb the enemy into submission or death.

Unfortunately for Arene, the generals read said plan and put it into action with its writer doing it. The Generals read the thesis and the concept of total world war. They know very well that the Arene rebellion was nothing more then the Republic attempting to use the civilians, who really did rise up, as human shields to force the Empire into a futile urban war hell which would go on for weeks into months weakening the Empire front lines. Frankly either option is not humane.

3] Tanya and her mages are pure speed and physical attacks. So yes opportunities for mages to use esoteric bullshit but the question is will they be able to do so before Tanya or her force can kill them with their superior speed. This of course majors on the fact of open battle.

 

[Zweibach]

And assigned them to a dangerous location but again it was a 50/50 chance they would have been killed, its not like she orchestrated with the enemy to have them bombed. And this is from the anime which is apparently more exorbitant in showing Tanya as evil

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This gets two panels in the manga and I'm not sure if it's even mentioned in the novel, because I can't remember it nor did I see anything about it while skimming through the first volume.

The biggest loss in the novel/manga to anime adaption was Tanya's inner thoughts and feelings, as well as some information. Like the fact that she's constantly magically drugging herself. Or that most of her successes is a hilarious series of Mr. Black incidents. Or that she considers Lehrgren, the one guy who considers her a violent sociopath, one of her best friends. But mostly her inner thoughts. And those mostly consists of "I really want a warm and comfy and SAFE rear-line assignment."

 

[yinko]

And those mostly consists of "I really want a warm and comfy and SAFE rear-line assignment."

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Are those thoughts consistent after the point where the anime cuts off? Through all the fighting till the end? Because in the anime, it looks like she's either becoming slightly more accustomed to fighting and death, or more unhinged, as things go on. And both the opening and ending songs heavily suggest the same. But if the novel is different, then that's somewhat important.

 

[SolipsistSerpent]

Are those thoughts consistent after the point where the anime cuts off? Through all the fighting till the end? Because in the anime, it looks like she's either becoming slightly more accustomed to fighting and death, or more unhinged, as things go on. And both the opening and ending songs heavily suggest the same. But if the novel is different, then that's somewhat important.

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Well, are we talking about her conscious thoughts or her actual feelings?

Because in the novel, after the war she

Spoiler

retires to a civilian life, finds out she can't take it and becomes a mercenary because she's become addicted to combat.

But she doesn't really admit to herself she feels that way until then.

So the interpretation of her character you're suggesting is accurate.

EDIT: It's important to note that even access to someone's innermost thoughts doesn't always make them a reliable narrator. As long as Tanya can pretend she doesn't have a choice, she doesn't have to admit that she's become the kind of person who would do those things anyway. She can pretend she's still the same as she was in her first life.

 

[Zweibach]

Are those thoughts consistent after the point where the anime cuts off? Through all the fighting till the end? Because in the anime, it looks like she's either becoming slightly more accustomed to fighting and death, or more unhinged, as things go on. And both the opening and ending songs heavily suggest the same. But if the novel is different, then that's somewhat important.

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Hard to say since none of the translated materials are past the point where the anime ended. But so far it's pretty consistent.

 

[Space Penguin]

Are those thoughts consistent after the point where the anime cuts off? Through all the fighting till the end? Because in the anime, it looks like she's either becoming slightly more accustomed to fighting and death, or more unhinged, as things go on. And both the opening and ending songs heavily suggest the same. But if the novel is different, then that's somewhat important.

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The manga has yet to get to reach the anime's point though as the anime is far ahead. And in the anime, Tanya did try and find a way to get into a "warm and comfy and SAFE rear-line assignment." but circumstances, her own mouth and all the misunderstandings that comes from it and Being X's manipulations ensures that she will never get that life. She realized this later on in the anime and thus went full bore hoping for the war to end so she could return to a normal life which is why she cried and lost it when she wasn't allowed to go and destroy Not-Dunkirk evacuation cause she knew the war would continue.

By the last episode Tanya has pretty much given up on that dream and embraced the suck and is now determined more then ever to spite Being X.

Well, are we talking about her conscious thoughts or her actual feelings?

Because in the novel, after the war she

Spoiler

retires to a civilian life, finds out she can't take it and becomes a mercenary because she's become addicted to combat.

But she doesn't really admit to herself she feels that way until then.

So the interpretation of her character you're suggesting is accurate.

EDIT: It's important to note that even access to someone's innermost thoughts doesn't always make them a reliable narrator. As long as Tanya can pretend she doesn't have a choice, she doesn't have to admit that she's become the kind of person who would do those things anyway. She can pretend she's still the same as she was in her first life.

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Thats after the war. We have seen it plenty of times about how soldiers cannot adapt to civilian life missing the action, the comradery, the war. PTSD or something? Tanya is simply affected by this just like other soldiers.

probably worse for her cause not until later does she realize that she really really likes combat as it makes her feel alive or something. I mean she does the trollish things in combat simply for the hell of it.

I honestly would like to see a snippet or something that has Tanya, out of character, tells command to fuck off and attacks Notfrance port. She may get killed during this but destroys the Notfrance army and ships forcing them to surrender thus ending the war or maybe coming back but still achieving the previous mentioned stuff and then gets executed and lambasted by everyone as bad, no honor, etc

We then get to see snippets of historians or analysts in the future who say that with hindsight what Tanya did was entirely correct and some guys call her a martyrr and by Royal decree is once more added to the roll of heroes and made a national hero or something.

Analysis of her tactics and empire tactics, etc. Like a wikipedia article. I would read it!

Anyway, going away from that Tangent. Some of what Tanya is capable of:



oh Another thing, the latest chapter of the Manga has Being X say war is a good thing, a right of pasage for humanity and makes them call out to God which is all good. And yet Tanya is worse then hitler or hitler and being X is trying to teach Tanya empathy . Just to be clear, I'm being fucking sarcastic.

 

[yinko]

By the last episode Tanya has pretty much given up on that dream and embraced the suck and is now determined more then ever to spite Being X.

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That's a major part of why I chose not to write things from her perspective. Her actions and her internal monologue are really contradictory. She acts like she loves war, she claims to want only comfort. At the same time, both the show's music and character progression imply that she comes to view killing as being directly associated with advancement, and advancement with leisure, so thus killing becomes somewhat pleasurable.
I'm a bit curious if the reason that the show stopped where it did was because after that point she acts too blood-thirstily.

 

[Space Penguin]

That's a major part of why I chose not to write things from her perspective. Her actions and her internal monologue are really contradictory. She acts like she loves war, she claims to want only comfort. At the same time, both the show's music and character progression imply that she comes to view killing as being directly associated with advancement, and advancement with leisure, so thus killing becomes somewhat pleasurable.
I'm a bit curious if the reason that the show stopped where it did was because after that point she acts too blood-thirstily.

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This bold does not make any sense. Major from Hellsing and Alucard from Hellsing and countless others are far more blood thirsty that Tanya ever was. Lol, from gate we had a character who orgasmed to people dying from combat.

Tanya is quite contradictory like humans are imo. She does not love war in of itself I think. Its the actions and the combat that makes her feel alive. Remember, she lived once as just a salaryman, head of HR. Its not impossible she was bored as fuck without realizing it. And of course killing means advancement, she is a soldier. Its her job to kill people. And we have never seen her get pleasure from war the way you are implying it like the character mercury from gate who does orgasm from death and war.

 

[SolipsistSerpent]

This bold does not make any sense. Major from Hellsing and Alucard from Hellsing and countless others are far more blood thirsty that Tanya ever was. Lol, from gate we had a character who orgasmed to people dying from combat.

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Sorry, the "people went for this tone in one show, that means completely different people would be willing to do it in a completely different show" argument doesn't hold a lot of water with me. Now if you have evidence related to Tanya the Evil or it's makers that counters that argument, that's different .

Mind you, personally I suspect the anime ended where it did because of length restrictions and the need for a good stopping place, not 'blood thirstiness'. After all, the anime is the one that played up her ruthlessness in having those guards assigned to the bunker.

 

[Space Penguin]

Sorry, the "people went for this tone in one show, that means completely different people would be willing to do it in a completely different show" argument doesn't hold a lot of water with me. Now if you have evidence related to Tanya the Evil or it's makers that counters that argument, that's different .

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Are we having a debate here? i was expressing my opinion that far more similar shows or even different shows appear on japanese tv's, made by Japanese studios with far more blood thirstyness in said shows then Tanya the evil and thats why I find said possibility not making any sense especially when it was the anime that played up Tanya's evil and even made the title of the show about her evil.

Mind you, personally I suspect the anime ended where it did because of length restrictions and the need for a good stopping place, not 'blood thirstiness'. After all, the anime is the one that played up her ruthlessness in having those guards assigned to the bunker.

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Ok. So you agree with me then

 

[yinko]

And we have never seen her get pleasure from war the way you are implying it like the character mercury from gate who does orgasm from death and war.

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Not sexual pleasure, I meant more like joy or fulfillment. Killing makes her feel alive, happy. The endorphins are rushing.

After all, the anime is the one that played up her ruthlessness in having those guards assigned to the bunker.

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That's a good point.

 

[Space Penguin]

Not sexual pleasure, I meant more like joy or fulfillment. Killing makes her feel alive, happy. The endorphins are rushing.

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Sure. hell, IIRC thats what makes things bad for even RL soldiers all that stuff causes them to have issues coming back to non-war environment. She was never much of an empathetic person to begin with. And even then, this is not that big of a deal. She does not star wars.

That's a good point.

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And as I have already pointed out, people make this into a bigger deal then it is.

 

[SolipsistSerpent]

And as I have already pointed out, people make this into a bigger deal then it is.

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Some people definitely exaggerate it, but let's not understate things either.

Just because it's a somewhat common phenomena doesn't mean she doesn't take it farther than most. Soldiers may often have trouble adjusting to a peaceful life but they don't usually go looking for wars to fling themselves into.