Everyone is Zaealix Mafia (Mafia)

As such I have no reason to assume you pro-town and will be leaving my vote on you until I believe otherwise.

@CoolCatmanC reads much more to me as novice town than scum, fwiw. There's a reason there's a big "here's why we vote D1" post in the mafia thread that's indexed and there's a reason it's in most forum mafia strategy discussion's 101 section. It's a mistake novice town makes.

Second level, I can't see scum thinking they'd be able to convince people of a no vote day, so the scum angle here would be scum trying to fake a novice town mistake in order to look towny. IMO that warrants considering it NAI but I don't think it's scum-indicative.
 
Read his comment like two or three posts before that. He goes "I got my own role" I go "Wait, you mean you'd be rping youself if you were evil?" he goes "What? no. Well, I guess. If you're saying I claim to have gotten my own name, then yes."
Alright, in that case I either missed the first time he said that or I just miss quoted the passage but my point stands. Letting the thread know what your previous name is was giving unnecessary information.
 
@CoolCatmanC reads much more to me as novice town than scum, fwiw. There's a reason there's a big "here's why we vote D1" post in the mafia thread that's indexed and there's a reason it's in most forum mafia strategy discussion's 101 section. It's a mistake novice town makes.

Second level, I can't see scum thinking they'd be able to convince people of a no vote day, so the scum angle here would be scum trying to fake a novice town mistake in order to look towny. IMO that warrants considering it NAI but I don't think it's scum-indicative.

I don't disagree fwiw I just want something very specific to happen after all the bluster.
 
There's a reason there's a big "here's why we vote D1" post in the mafia thread that's indexed and there's a reason it's in most forum mafia strategy discussion's 101 section.
*sighs* dammit, I thought I read all the mafia stuff on this site. My short attention span is going to get me killed. Link, please.

I understand the principle of voting D1; but I don't like doing it without reason. You'll notice I did, in fact, vote. Young Zaealix got bandwagon hard, and even if he is scum that just screams "scum are voting this! run for the hills" you know?
 
I understand the principle of voting D1; but I don't like doing it without reason. You'll notice I did, in fact, vote. Young Zaealix got bandwagon hard, and even if he is scum that just screams "scum are voting this! run for the hills" you know?

Nah i think you spring the trap. Its easier to build cases off of higher contention wagons than people jumping ship to 99 at the last minute because I told 99 to do something scummy and was surprised Pikachu faced when he did and somehow everyone used that as an off ramp at EOD.

Unfortunately because it was the offramp people kinda can easily slip away sight unseen because we don't know the primary wagon targets alignment.

I'm riling you up for a reason btw.
 
*sighs* dammit, I thought I read all the mafia stuff on this site. My short attention span is going to get me killed. Link, please.

I understand the principle of voting D1; but I don't like doing it without reason. You'll notice I did, in fact, vote. Young Zaealix got bandwagon hard, and even if he is scum that just screams "scum are voting this! run for the hills" you know?

Here's a link. I'm pretty sure (although don't have in front of me) that I remember reading similar analysis on wiki.mafiascum.net and mafiauniverse.

(Porting post about Day 1 Elimination Debate on request of @Winged Cat)

(Reasoning for why we are always annoyed by this debate is at the end)

Preface
Before anything else, I'll explain some terms. Elimination is the term used in this guide for how someone is removed from the thread by votes. A vote is usually active only during the Day Phase that it is placed, and is changed whenever a new vote by the same player is placed. In most cases the person with the most votes is the one eliminated at the end of the Day Phase. Any deaths that are caused by one player targeting another is called either a Night Kill or a Day Kill by the phase it occurs in.

Day 1 Elimination
I will be explaining this now, in full. To start, what it is and what is expected from it.

The biggest expectation for what happens on the Day 1 Elim is that a Town dies.
This is normal. There is not a lot of information yet after all. The purpose of the Day is to gather information, it's a lot like finding puzzle pieces after your brother got into the box. Eventually, you're going to be able to fit a lot of the pieces together to figure out the picture, and as they come together it gets easier for everything to slot in. To continue the metaphor however...

Not every piece is to the same puzzle.
A lot of the information gathered is meaningless, or would be there regardless of the puzzle that is being filled (Greetings between players for example, or memes in a JoJo game) You can't tell if it is or isn't a part of it until things start to come together however, so you have to have keep all that information at hand. (On the same note as this but unrelated to the Elimination Debate(TM) a Mason could be considered akin to if your brother kept a handful of the pieces, and whether they share info or not is like if your brother gave them back)

The first death is the first connecting piece of the puzzle.
Whether it's by Elimination or by Night Kill, the first death is the first concrete connection. Before then you might have had a few piles of similarly coloured pieces but nothing to really extend off of yet. An Elimination is a lot more likely to be a connection in one of those piles, and you can then sort out whether they go to the same shape or if they belong elsewhere. A Night Kill however could be entirely removed from the discussion. This is when you start piecing together as much as you can, before hitting a point where you have to make a different connection to start putting things together in another part of the puzzle.

That's an extended metaphor for the first Day, now I'll explain the various points against it and the reasoning provided against that.

It is almost certainly going to hit Town.
Tons of reasons for this, Town outnumbering Scum being the least important of them. The point against it is exactly that, we are acting on little information and are going to Eliminate Town. Less Town is bad, simple enough right?
-For why that's okay, there are usually a lot of Town, and gathering information is worth a single death. Mafia is the informed minority against the uninformed majority, and the only way the uninformed majority is going to win is either luck or turning into the informed majority.

'It doesn't actually gather information.'
Eliminating Town doesn't tell us anyone who is or isn't Town, scum could be on either side of the wagon.
-The people on either side of the final wagon really don't matter all that much, the reasoning they gave for the side they're on is what's important to look at. The speed at how quickly the wagon grew, how many people had their own reasons for joining it, who had no reason at all, those things are what we want to look at for the final wagon. More importantly however are the other players who were getting wagoned, because the biggest reason why Town is what is normally lynched Day 1 is that most Mafia have support. So look for people who defend others, who intercept inquiries, or people who don't seem to have a lot of reason for leaving their previous vote to raise a wagon higher.

It's better to have information from the night to help decide who to Eliminate.
To cut back to my earlier metaphor, connections that are made without killing people.
-Any investigatives will know what they know, but they aren't very likely to share that information unless it's worth their life, meaning that aside from a select few people everyone will be walking into Town with the same info they had going into Day 1. Mafia are also often capable of gathering information at night, and by virtue of being a mafia, sharing it with each other out of the thread. They don't need to gather info to win, Town does.


The point of the Elimination.
It's pressure. The point of the Elimination is to pressure people into taking stands, making cases (regardless of how good they are) and sharing their thoughts, because whoever we find the least satisfying or useful will be eliminated. The problem with pushing off the Elimination is that people are selfish.

Without a reason to speak up, a lot of players won't. It's hard to gather up the puzzle pieces when they're all hidden away and silent, and if people don't have a reason to go try and fit things together they'll hoard their little cardboard pieces like Gollum and his ring.

Why we prefer people to vote.
1: Refusing to join in voting people is often accompanied by not trying to find scum, and kicking back as other people try to do the work. It's a tool, refusing to use it isn't a good sign.
2: Talk vs Action. You can say a lot or you can say a little, people are a lot more likely to rally behind the person who goes out and does stuff than the person who doesn't, which gives us even more information to work with.
3: Votelogs are a very helpful thing for figuring out where people's opinions change without scrolling through the entire thread to figure things out you were probably already sure of.
4: Refusing to make player related stances significantly cuts down on what we can look at for what you are, and for figuring out what other players are when you die.


Why we are annoyed by this Debate.
Because nothing ever comes from it. Maybe if people actually stuck by it when they played it would be less irritating, but they don't end the Day voting 'No Elimination'. It just takes up time and attention that would have been spent gathering information to explain to people why trying to gather information is important, and it is the same thing again and again.

Suggestion.
A few things I want to suggest for you if you really think the Day should end without an Elimination.

1: Don't make a big deal of it early on. Saying "I don't think we should kill anyone today" or something similar like that at the start of the day is only going to detract from it. If someone is questioning why you aren't voting anyone at the start, claiming to be waiting for a good reason or considering who to vote for is a lot more acceptable.
2: Try to gather info, if you don't want to vote at all at least try to put out some reads on people. You don't have to vote in order to question people.
3: If you are willing to vote still, using the vote system to help incentivize people to answer your questions is an option. If you start asking pointed questions and have a vote attached, people may follow your vote in order to apply 'Pressure'. This is just more info for you to use later on, and having to convince people to get off a wagon can change the answers that are given.
4: Get a good idea of how you feel about the other players, who seems to be Town, who you aren't sure of, and anyone who you feel is not. Our brains are really good at feeding us feelings on things we haven't consciously noticed, so pay attention to that as well.
5: Most importantly, don't decide right away. The question of 'To Eliminate, or not to Eliminate' is not one that should be decided at the start of the Day. I'd suggest to start considering it about two thirds of the way through the Day, and bring up the option then if you don't see anyone that is worth lynching. Remember to follow 4 and 2 for this.
6: If you decide on something, don't cave because of pressure. If you change your mind about it, like if you find someone who seems really suspicious, then that's fine. But dropping it just because others don't like it only says that it wasn't very important to you to begin with.
 
Nah i think you spring the trap. Its easier to build cases off of higher contention wagons than people jumping ship to 99 at the last minute because I told 99 to do something scummy and was surprised Pikachu faced when he did and somehow everyone used that as an off ramp at EOD.
I think I understand what trap you mean, and if it is what I think it is I can see how "I fell into it" but we're off-topic at this point, aren't we? I don't think we had enough evidence to justify the elimination of either 99Zaealix or Young Zaealix, and that we really should be investigating others. Like, you know, all the quiet people.
I'm riling you up for a reason btw.
...Swell. Is the reason enjoyment?
 
I said it's practically random, nor did I begrudge the act of voting D1. I cried out against the idea of letting those early votes mean a person's death before we had any actual evidence.
Main issue with this logic is that if you don't kill anyone Day 1 because there's not enough evidence, there's never really going to be enough evidence because you're just hoping that Town Power Roles find something, and scum get to set the pace. And the other issue is that if you never kill anyone Day 1 then Day 1 votes become toothless.

I disagree with Day 1 No Kill being a policy, but it's perfectly fine with reason suited to the game imo.
 
I think I understand what trap you mean, and if it is what I think it is I can see how "I fell into it" but we're off-topic at this point, aren't we? I don't think we had enough evidence to justify the elimination of either 99Zaealix or Young Zaealix, and that we really should be investigating others. Like, you know, all the quiet people.

...Swell. Is the reason enjoyment?

To the first part:

In an ideal world sure but this game runs on a time limit which means limited resources, so you pick the one that gives the best value at that point in time the whole thesis of today is that we picked incorrectly as a collective.

The difficulty is now that because we picked wrong our actual solid evidence is much more limited and we are stuck speculating much more. It's not about having enough evidence of their alignment before the Elim it's about what all of the lead up means when we factually know what the result is because the scum team knows what the result will be before the fact and it's about interrogating who those people are that gives you the first clue.

As to part two: while I absolutely adore pushing people's buttons that's completely side effect in this case.
 
Eod1 needs to get microscoped, I think we've been bitching and moaning about not getting the optimal Elim that were not going back and actually examining what happened with 99 deeply enough.

It's been looked at but I think 48h of extra context might change perspectives.
 
I disagree with Day 1 No Kill being a policy, but it's perfectly fine with reason suited to the game imo.
I suppose I agree with this, from the other perspective; I dislike killing Day 1, but I'm not afraid to do it.
]As to part two: while I absolutely adore pushing people's buttons that's completely side effect in this case.
Nah, I get it. I love pushing buttons too--that's why I meme'd for so long for D1. Although I hope you weren't requiring my anger; I calmed down as soon as you actually started to communicate with me.
 
Eod1 needs to get microscoped, I think we've been bitching and moaning about not getting the optimal Elim that were not going back and actually examining what happened with 99 deeply enough.

It's been looked at but I think 48h of extra context might change perspectives.
NGL I'll probably leave that to you. I might end up making a votelog but I don't feel up to it lol
 
@CoolCatmanC @Cyricubed @A Bunch Of Atoms @Draxy @Shadell and @Zaealix

May I please get your general, not necessarily specific thoughts on the following players?
- OriginalName
- Snickers4444
- Nictis
- Scia
- Young Pyromancer
- LostDeviljho

These do not need to be super in depth, what our your gut/base reads on these selected players, do you town read or scum read them, anything particular about their play stand out as interesting or noteworthy for you?
Hmm, of my 6 questioned players I only have 4 responses so far:

ZaelixTurtle, I don't have great depth to my reads so here we go!
Original-Agressive enough that if this wasn't a social game I'd want to ask if he's okay- the last time I saw him like this was when Pawn was winding him up…But that's kind of NAI since IDK which way the frustration swings yet.
4444- I suppose he's town, I think. No one seems to be having issues with his logic, as far as I've noticed.
Nictis- I'm neutral towards him. Does help that other people don't seem to be having issues with him.
Scia- kind of side-eying, but only on the observations of others.
Young- if he's not scum he's shifty enough to yeet irreegardless.
Lost-some conflict, maybe, but might just be due to getting stuck in the Young burnination. Doesn't fell like it's turned omnidirectional yet…
And now that I've said all that?
[X]Vote Young Pyromancer

Ori: 249 is obviously an extremely good post, however that goes without saying. More broadly, I think they got on a strategy argument (they were on the right side of it), but when I pushed to get a scumvote off the YP wagon, Ori is the only player I really see delivering strongly on that in ways I quite like. Again, I don't like 99L voting D1 on more of a meta-read (they have a scummy affect in the game in general), but I think Ori is the one who's reasons for this seem to be quite a bit more solid than 99L being 99L which inclines me toward town.


Snickers: Mid post-count but a lot of these posts are memey or very short. 87 is just pushing back against YP's speculation, 95 is much the same, 231 is a bit better, but I think 99L is a perennial easy target early game and I'm not inclined to credit much to that opinion. 356 leaves me thinking YP/Snickers pair is worth looking at when either flips. 276 by contrast, strikes me as a pretty good post with a focus on Zaea. Not great overall, but no strong scumlean yet.


Nictis: Nictis I've had thoughts on without a need for a full review (and they post too much). Nictis was in and out D1, and mostly joined an existing push on YP, which they've stayed on in a lot of ways. Overall, I'm not very sus at the moment, since focusing hard on a decent prediction early on is very Nictisy in some ways, as is disliking a number of the pretty specific things YP did. Not a strong townlean yet, but definitely the nicer side of neutral imo.


Scia: Low activity, not very aggressive hunting so far. This, honestly, fits with my models of Scia's behavior as town for early game. That said, in terms of the specifics, 204 I dislike in that it second guesses the read but doesn't do so in a way that really commits to anything, explains why or challenges what's being argued. 289 strikes me as a pretty weird post as well. With zero rationale for a swap onto 99L 2 minutes before the vote ends. this is later justified in relation to YP's claim. Overall, scummy imo.


YP: Nictis has done a very clear job at summarizing the evolution of my thoughts on YP D1. I agree that the PR doesn't clear, and can see an outside attempt to clear Snickers at the expense of YP getting voted if it didn't free from heat, but that'd be a bit coordinated and my gut is that scum probably isn't setting that much up D1. D2 not terribly much new thoughts. I think they're quite sus so far, but I'm still weighing very early things, and their response to those, pretty heavily.

LDJ: LDJ is a player I don't have a good sense of. A lot of their reads strike me as a bit bizarre if anything, and they've made this claim in reverse as well. OTOH, when they're telling all the more experienced players that it's just a playstyle thing that they have extremely different reactions to everything, I start to suspect they're kinda hiding less intent to scumhunt in claims of playstyle. Someone who knows them better would likely be a better judge though.

I'd like to have a credible vote on the board, by no means persuaded, but coming off that list, this is where I land most directly I think for the moment, and a good tree to shake.
[x] Vote Scia

Very quick read since it's getting late to me, so not too willing to do a dive atm.

Name; ...actually hasn't stood out to me much. Now that I've been forced to think on it it's not for their lack of posting, more that their avatar blends into the background and don't outright recognise a post as being them based on avatar just yet. Since I'm more drawn to the brighter avatars on the darker backgrounds, whilst his is dark on dark, so my eyes aren't drawn across to look and see the name when scanning whilst trying to catch up. Doubly so since I now recognise you all on sight of your avatars except for him, so don't even look at names anymore. Is a little embarrassing to admit now that I've realised. I'll do a proper read soon even if it's late since I'm far too embarrassed on this and will endeavour to do better here in the future. Really sorry for this name, I can only apologise.
Snickers; Town most likely. Don't really have a negative read on him beyond the possibility of being youngs ally. Though don't really believe that theory much, more rose it for the sake of completeness.
Nictis; Would also say town here. The other volunteer, have a suspicion on their role if I've been reading their hints right. Nothing else much stands out.
Scia; Admit to being unsure, mostly on what devil pointed out earlier, was also one of the lower posters d1, though seemed to have picked up activity today so where likely just busy. There explanation on their voting when questioned seemed good though.
Young; Pretty sure you know my thoughts here now.
Devil; Also unsure on. First became unsure at days start when pushing Nictis for him surviving the night, doubly so when they didn't mention the potential of town protectives (docs, watchers, ext) also being drawn to him due to him for the exact same reason they were arguing scum would be, though doing so would of likely negated their argument. That missed this and now because they've settled upon only a small part of the argument against young to shout down, whilst ignoring the full thing. So they're slowly making me more and more sus.



Didn't the last game have a scum rolecop though? That was Cy's role right? Or at least someone on his team.

Sure!
OriginalZaealix = I don't like him, but he seems town enough.
Zaealix4444 = I really don't like him, and expect to start voting him seriously D3 if we don't get any leads.
Zaealis = he seems pretty scum, but I used to play mindnight so I'm placing him as too scum to be anything but town.
…I really hope those skills transfer over.
Scaealix = she let herself be pressured into voting. That reads as being sheeped at the very least, although I'm starting to lose my suspicion and will likely unvote her.

Actually, I might miss turnover. I'll unvote her now, although she's still my preferred vote and I will revote her if we don't get any better leads.

[X] Vote Null

Young Zaealix = possibly bad, but we need to stop arguing about the dude and actually kill a scum.

LostZaealix = they keep topping my list for second-most townie and then saying something that sets off all the alarms in my building. I dunno.

I would really like to get both @Cyricubed and @A Bunch Of Atoms to answer the question before we hit day approaching ending time.

Or I could suck it up and collect the manifesto now. Decisions decisions...
 
Eod1 needs to get microscoped, I think we've been bitching and moaning about not getting the optimal Elim that were not going back and actually examining what happened with 99 deeply enough.

It's been looked at but I think 48h of extra context might change perspectives.

Backreading day 1s and 2s are often the most analysis I can get out of a game.
 
Nah, I get it. I love pushing buttons too--that's why I meme'd for so long for D1. Although I hope you weren't requiring my anger; I calmed down as soon as you actually started to communicate with me.

Honestly yeah I think anger would've helped here.

I wanted you to vote me and actually build a case.

I don't respect people who say they don't like me and don't do anything about it especially when you still thought I was town, I like to fight, so I picked one, then hail kinda ruined the tone.
 
I don't remember why I did that I usually just vote Zaea as a joke default until I actually have an opinion but I don't actually remember doing that this game, id have to look.

Zaea usually just self resolves eventually I don't really care early on unless I see a major slip.
I believe this is what it was about.
I'm going to be honest, Shaddell, I don't like you asking about people voting the YP wagon. Frankly, I wouldn't rate ANY wagon D1 as being important, even if Young's slips could be a sign of something bigger…
But what it DOES do is shrink the pool of targets, so to speak. Possibly enough to be…Conveinent, if one has good timing.
This is the most incorrect thing you've ever posted.
I paced around my room a couple times thinking about it

[x] Vote Zaealix

This is 100% my day 1 policy vote you don't get to say one of the single most objectively wrong statements possible like that and not face any sort of retaliation.
Maybe I should have said:
no wagon D1 is all that important from within D1-point is the smaller sample size by how Shaddell set that question up.
For that matter, maybe I shouldn't be trying to post more because it's the Zaealix game. But then again I'm more just tying Young Zaealix with Zaedall for the purpose of trying to profile a full team instead of just singling out one guy.
But it's D1, and I'm not on a level where I can smell it when someone's feeding me subsitute mudpies.
 
I believe this is what it was about.

Oh wait shit no that was 100% a real vote I was legit fuming after I saw Zaea said that day 1 wagons aren't important for reasons I think have been made clear the last 2 pages I just hopped off it because I don't think anyone else was interested in pursuing it.
 
Honestly yeah I think anger would've helped here.

I wanted you to vote me and actually build a case.

I don't respect people who say they don't like me and don't do anything about it especially when you still thought I was town, I like to fight, so I picked one, then hail kinda ruined the tone.
I wouldn't have voted you and/or "built a case". Even when you were actively pissing me off, I still thought you were more likely town; the most you would have gotten from me was a vote because "this guy is evil because he's trying to create in-fighting in town", and I wouldn't do that because, well, I hate letting my anger make any decisions.

let's just leave it at I used to be really easy to manipulate when I made decisions angry.

Also, I think I broke my SV post? I had a list and everything and it kinda stopped existing? thanks SV. I know Zaealix³ and A bunch of Zaealix were on it, at least.
 
CCC and LDJ are my two preferred yeets today.
I'm flattered. :V

In all seriousness if you want lynch me go ahead, I'm not good enough at defensive play to talk my way out of the noose.

That said I would obviously prefer not to be voted off, and will clarify that doing so will not find you scum, unless someone is shockingly unsubtle in the aftermath. Not would it actually clear anyone, and I don't actually have any connections to anyone mechanics wise,
 
Won't be around at EoD, timezones. I think my top scumread is YP, I don't think rolecop is a town role. I don't see how it can really help town, period, (at least, not any more than visitor could?) so I don't think this is a pr that it's worth not voting a scumread for. I am also wondering if YP's super cryptic post was to me saying that I was right in thinking he was implying 3p but wrong in thinking that it was SK setting up a fakeclaim for 3P. Idk. Maybe that was a misread of that post. But if it's the intended read I don't like it at all.

I think town!YP is evidence that Snickers and Nictis are town, (since YP's description on D1 was unclear enough that I thought he probably could detect maf, so maf probably did not risk it.) scum!YP is probably evidence that Scia is scum, and the transition from the YP lynch to 99Lies lynch will need a lot more examination.

Townreading: Shadell, Nictis
Townleaning: Snickers, CoolCatmanC, OriginalName
Null: Zaealix, LDJ, Draxy, Comiturtle
Haven't posted much, null: Cyricubed, A Bunch of Atoms
Scumleaning: Scia
Scumreading: Young Pyromancer

@Young Pyromancer

[X] Vote Young Pyromancer
 
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