...I think we are at most going Further Beyond for Dao Cleaving, so Logos would be helpful.
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Even Further Beyond [Complete]
- Thread starter Rihaku
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well it wouldn't be a matter of still since it was never offered in this quest
DonutAttack
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It technically was, but we were too poor to get it. I mean, it fits all the checkmarks: undiscounted EFB, synergestic, and potential type. Logos and another EFB and Truth might be enough to carry us to victory.
I feel it's not fair to offer us such a thematically desirable EFB before we could have been expected to have gotten 10BP! We had hardly begun then.
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RedV
Refuelling
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And now that we know it has serious benefits in addition to 0.5 Stage increase, I'm hoping it'll be an easier sell to get FB Dao Cleaving. It looks so pretty like that, with 1 BP True Alchemist -> 3 BP Philosopher's Stone -> 10 BP Philosopher-King. And it'll be of great use too in extracting more benefits from the choice of Dao, which is crucial. We're like guaranteed to exceed Kong Zang's choice, given he had 1 BP + Truth Dao.
Though the Diagram is much cooler than Artifice, hm.
I would honestly prefer the Artifact equivalent (if possible) since we are a really good forger ourselves and have a major Fate bonus to Artifice and I'd like to see more Magnum Opus level Artifacts.
Though the Diagram is much cooler than Artifice, hm.
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Oh is that the name for the throne efb? My bad then. I'd assumed it was a reference >.>
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DonutAttack
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Though, we haven't been offered an Artifact equivalent before whereas we've been offered Logos before. I'm hoping it's distinct enough from Lichdom that we can consider getting it separately. Seriously, though, that was like still chidhood phase. There was no way we could have gotten 10BP.
Too BP intensive and doesn't take advantage of our undiscounted EFB advantage. We won't have enough BP to get the EFB we need to challenge Kong Zang. I mean, if we're going PK, we need to take into account our other benefits and making the whole thing cost tons of BP is a mark against it given we are not rewarded BP for achieving it.
"[ ] Go - Even Further Beyond - [10 Beyond Points] - The Divinities discarded the magi of the Diagram. More fool they, for the Logos of the Diagram holds power enough to sunder thrones, to shatter worlds, to cast down the gods themselves... In time, you will visit upon them the Fate that they inflicted upon so many. Vengeance. Terror. Shadow and flame."
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Should be the EFB option quoted above
DonutAttack
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Ironically, the EFBs for the general Diagram (unsure now about Truth but still likely to synergize heavily) are very vague in description. Doesn't mean we can't establish ranges for their power. We now know Logos is a potential type of the Diagram, at least, which is stronger than immediate-power types like EFB Llewyn's Might.
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- Canada
Odds are high towards Logos and Truth being the same thing. Truth showed up with a 7 BP cost on the ring we spent 3 BP to create instead of buying the Logos with 10. Logos, when defined, tends to mean something like either 'Logic' or (According to Google, at least) 'The Word of God,' which seems somewhat similar and, assuming they are the same, could possibly hint as to the truth of their effects.
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I still don't understand the appeal of truth but I guess at this point I'm gonna vote towards getting it just so people don't get upset.
The main place to look for what logos means is gonna be Aristotle's Rhetoric
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Given it looks like we are going to push for truth sooner than later, discussing our dao now is probably unnecessary. However I was thinking given that nameless is all about setting up situations that continue on, exploit synergy, and manipulate people,perhaps a dao about causality would be appropriate?
Some ideas include the:
interconnectedness of all.
Causality of actions.
The Pebble causing an avalanche
The butterfly's wings
The rippling pond
Forseen consequences
Obviously in the exact wording needs some work, but I feel like the concept plays to our character, especially from our fathers lessons and how we leverage those and Thrice Bound to gain to gain success.
Some ideas include the:
interconnectedness of all.
Causality of actions.
The Pebble causing an avalanche
The butterfly's wings
The rippling pond
Forseen consequences
Obviously in the exact wording needs some work, but I feel like the concept plays to our character, especially from our fathers lessons and how we leverage those and Thrice Bound to gain to gain success.
RedV
Refuelling
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It significantly improves quality of Dao we get even at Further Beyond. That's worth it alone, not to mention 1-2 combat strength increase.
I want it because Cultivation is the foundation of facing Kong, and copying his Cultivation build won't get us near challenging him. I'm not gaga enough over EFBs to fuck over foundation of our build.
The Dao we pick has far-reaching impacts on our build and how far we can Cultivate. That shouldn't be ignored- we're essentially deciding on our level cap here for Artifice (which depends on Cultivation) and Cultivation itself. Its unfeasible to get EFB Dao, but FB Dao is eminently possible.
We want a Dao that exceeds Kong's endless sky. We know he has 1 BP Dao Cleaving + Truth buffing his Dao. To exceed him I want us to get FB Dao, since it holistically improves both Artifacts and Cultivation permanently. No Diagram EFB has done that so far.
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Shard
One and Many
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Apparantly Fully Exploited Truth by itself (No Cultivation) is equal to PK in power. Fully Exploited Truth is worth an addition 1-2 stages on top of PK as well, apparently.
This does imply Truth is Potential-Type.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Ehhh, not sure I'd go that far, the PK line is supposed to be "Extremely broad" for what they do--and we're seeing it here. The least broad effect we get is still something along the lines of an FB in direct combat gains. The alternatives are another Ring-grade Artifact at zero cost, or an instant-learn Grand Diagram that instantly gets a BP and can be expanded freely unlike other Diagrams.
DonutAttack
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We can get full potential Dao anyways with Truth as well as other benefits. No need to EFB Dao--as we know, Beyond levels in Cultivation are very power inefficient (according to Rihaku's last stats, about 1/3 as efficient. Albeit, points in Cultivation levels would only be 1/2 as power efficient without the Ring, but that's irrelevant). The only reason we're Beyonding them now is PK, but I see no reason for us to FB Cultivation levels.
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RedV
Refuelling
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How are you sure that 1 BP + Truth gives a Dao equal to 3 BP + Truth?
Also, Beyond Cultivation is literally our only means of improving Artifice. It's worth minor inefficiency because it applies to both our direct combat/everything, and to any Artifacts whatsoever we make (which we have Forge and Fated Overlord supporting), and so is twice over as applicable/efficient to combat.
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DonutAttack
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For the first point, I'm not sure, but I am sure it would be very redundant to get them both.
As for the second point, looking at Suizhen, we know Further Beyond levels in Cultivation give a pathetic 0.5 stages. I mean, I agree on Beyonding them all to progress in Philosopher-King, but in of themselves, they're not that great. It's just they synergize to form a greater whole.
I don't think the marginal benefits from FB them compensate the costs. 9BP for Philosopher's Stone costs more than an EFB plus 2BP back!
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RedV
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We have explicit clarification that Truth is very helpful for any level of Dao below EFB Dao. You can't just dismiss it like that when we have evidence that it does significantly help FB.
It's the only opportunity we have to increase Artifact level. It's equivalent to getting Internalise, since it is applicable to anything we do. We have seven, limited opportunities to invest BP to improve results of Cultivation directly. 1 BP wastes three of these opportunities and locks us into a build identical to Kong below Ascendant Titan (Truth + 1 BP every stage) except that he has Titan EFB and Eyes of Kong on top, which we have no guarantee of matching.
We'd have to oppose that with Diagram, but Diagram isn't as good at direct combat as a specialised combat tool like Eyes of Kong, even with Ring. Its main worth is multipliers, but those (like Ampli or Cerebration) are duds in combat (exception of Quickening).
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DonutAttack
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Given how much it helps FB, I fully expect it to help B even more. We know EFB makes that functuon of Truth redundant, so it stands to reason BP expenditure overlaps with Truth benefit, making FB somewhat redundant. And, really, we have a machine that generates FREE BP if we only have the discipline to save up and ignore inefficient options like FB Dao Cleaving.
I think a distiction between Cultivation and Beyond Cultivation must be made. Cultivation is better than Diagram at fighting, but marginal gains for BP in BOTH power and utility are better for Diagram. Most of it is due to the Ring.
EDIT: I mean:
is so much better than 0.5 stages of strength and some utility effect. I have no doubt that, without the Ring, the comparison may differ but, with it, I think there isn't any question where 3BP is better spent. And the 10BP version is far better yet.
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RedV
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Tch, I need some support here. Where's the anti-Diagram faction when you need 'em?!
There is a significant possibility that B + Truth is worse than FB + Truth instead of equal, so I don't desire to take risks.
It's not the only possible case. It could be that there is a maximum cap on how powerful a Dao lets one be (say, 10), and EFB naturally reaches that cap (10/10) while Truth + Beyond is equal to (1+7 = 8/10) and Truth + FB is equal to (3 + 7 = 10/10), which makes sense given the price ranges of both Dao Beyonds and of Truth.
There is a significant possibility that B + Truth is worse than FB + Truth instead of equal, so I don't desire to take risks.
I don't think this is the case for a Dao. We're basically deciding how high we can punch, and the level cap imposed by a Dao will stay with us for rest of our life. Choosing a bad Dao has horrific consequences- I want to choose the best that is realistically possible, exceeding Kong Zang by a mile. I don't want to take any risk whatsoever with Dao.
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DonutAttack
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This quote implies Truth gets us maximum benefits:
indicating with Truth we would get it. Of course, there remains the possibility that FB covers exactly the 2BP gap needed to get full-benefits, but that's a shaky position at best. It easily could be 1 or 0 in which case the inefficiency dooms us.
The problem is the cost you're imposing isn't only on the Dao. It's having 2 additional inefficient 3BP choices that will get us killed in 5 years. Those 9BP spent on these three stages could be grown into 10BP, getting an EFB, and then getting 2BP back. We can only get 2-3 EFB in the upcoming years on a medium estimate, and killing one of them without even getting Philosopher-King is not a good trade.
EDIT: Let's be fair. Zang Kong only had 1BP equivalent on this stage, and I doubt he had the Truth (if he does at all) back then, meaning we'd have more potential than him. And even if we have more potential, not being able to realize it is still death.
Moreover, we're Thrice-Great. If worst comes to worst, we may be able to find a Diagram spell or Artifact that changes or boosts Dao, or we just live with it and boost our other disciplines. We're not Zang Kong: our potential in one field does not limit our overall potential. And that's more than enough to exceed Zang Kong. What we really lack, though, is growth.
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