Even Further Beyond [Complete]

[Rihaku]

So we don't actually have to propose plans for Nameless to use as a base for the Pass option Mastermind Points.

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If your plans are good, he has to do less work. If your plans are awful, he has to spend that work mitigating your plan.

 

[DarkKing98]

...I see something that downright annoys me.

You guys realize the mastermind point option is a FREE mastermind point option choice right? As in, we DON'T spend a mastermind point and can do it for free.

 

[George]

And as assumed, they're not dead, so they're not idiots, so that plan doesn't fly.



How would a sect find them when they've continually failed for the past few thousand years? Sounds like a classic definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.



So we don't actually have to propose plans for Nameless to use as a base for the Pass option Mastermind Points.



Well, given the clarification that 90% of them are less valuable than even regular Diagram spells, then it's fortunate that we didn't try our hand at fief management where they were meant to be one of the upsides, as it seems like they're generally pointless shit we should ignore in future. A Diagram Mage can get 33 spells. There's no way I can see us getting that many Priceless Treasures.

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You're assuming it's stupid to come looking for us but that's not necessarily the case. Any fellow Diagramist is a potential ally or peer, no?

Why do you think they've continually failed? A Sect literally just succeeded and we have little evidence that searching for liches has been at all a major goal of the local Sects. Without a firm citation that a serious search has actually been conducted, it's far from insane.

I'm afraid you tragically misread his post. He said that there exist Spells better than 90% of Priceless Treasures, not that regular Diagram spells are better than 90% of Priceless Treasures.

...I see something that downright annoys me.

You guys realize the mastermind point option is a FREE mastermind point option choice right? As in, we DON'T spend a mastermind point and can do it for free.

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Who do you see that's actually making that misconception? That's why it's not a scam compared to .4 Beyond Points, but that still doesn't mean it's necessarily better.

 

[Alectai]

Incorrect, if they were a happy brotherhood, they would combine powers.

Another Diagram Mage is a potential rival, who might plunder your vaults for knowledge, not an implicit friend.

But yes, some spells are better than most treasures. That's not the same thing as all spells being worth it, and pushing them to the suggested levels are further distractions.

 

[RedV]

[X] Corriperre

I must sleep, so vote responsibly and tactically for whatever you prefer.

 

[Rask]

That said, at some point you may want to consider the spells and effects you already know. It would only take <2 months to develop and learn Llewyn's Prodigious Might while Cultivating somewhat, and 4 further months to Cultivate to Peak Soul Chrysalis.

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Do we have any idea how long it would take us to research the Sarcophagus? I'm hoping there's something helpful in Baelixnaer's notes, which we chose to take.

 

[Alratan]

Best case scenario? We drive them off in defeat, and the Lich Lord owes us a debt, which we can use to scam them in turn.

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Best case in my mind is to take over the sect by discovering or manufacturing evidence that they were in league with a lich. Extra comedy if it wasn't true before and they now will be, in the shape of Nameless.

You're assuming it's stupid to come looking for us but that's not necessarily the case. Any fellow Diagramist is a potential ally or peer, no?

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Why? I'd expect the surviving Diagram magi to be enemies. They can't trust each other, as they can never know if one of them has been turned or wants to look their spells and resources. The only way they can survive like this is nigh perfect information security, otherwise one of them falling would have lead to the rest being rolled up long ago.

Why do you think they've continually failed? A Sect literally just succeeded and we have little evidence that searching for liches has been at all a major goal of the local Sects. Without a firm citation that a serious search has actually been conducted, it's far from insane.

I'm afraid you tragically misread his post. He said that there exist Spells better than 90% of Priceless Treasures, not that regular Diagram spells are better than 90% of Priceless Treasures.

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The locals have been living in fear of being brutally murdered by liches for generations, suppressing the population and keeping the place sparsely populated. You don't think the Sects wouldn't have a hard on for tracking down and brutally murdering the abominations against nature that keep causing them to lose face.

And Rihaku didn't say that those spells were Beyond enhanced. Just that they were spells known by the local liches, as a result, I conclude that they're regular spells.

 

[DonutAttack]

I mean, Pass is the option that abandons safety and rewards thought and ingenuity in return for great rewards. These are the options we must take if we are to ever overcome the heroine--not through comfort in safe options, like that ever helped the previous playthings of the Divinities, but through risk and thought. The other costs of the option are laughable bar the one that tests our plans.

Plus, for those who favor Cultivation:

Can collect cultivation materials while searching

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[Rask]

I mean, Pass is the option that abandons safety and rewards thought and ingenuity in return for great rewards. These are the options we must take if we are to ever overcome the heroine--not through comfort in safe options, like that ever helped the previous playthings of the Divinities, but through risk and thought.

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The option that doesn't risk confrontation with a Reality-Forming patriarch is the more dangerous one now?

 

[Alratan]

I mean, Pass is the option that abandons safety and rewards thought and ingenuity in return for great rewards. These are the options we must take if we are to ever overcome the heroine--not through comfort in safe options, like that ever helped the previous playthings of the Divinities, but through risk and thought.

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Or perhaps the Divinities have laughed and laughed as their previous playthings have destroyed themselves by repeatedly taking absurd levels of risk until their number is up before the Heroine even awakens.

Perhaps there even is no Heroine, and they just watch as their chosen instrument tears apart civilization in their paranoid flailing, bringing about the very Doom they believe they're trying to prevent.

We know almost nothing about the real situation with the Divinities here.

 

[DonutAttack]

The option that doesn't risk confrontation with a Reality-Forming patriarch is the more dangerous one now?

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Death is not that important and is unlikely given that our body would have to be exterminated rather thoroughly for us to really die. What's more crippling is missing out on opportunity, which is the danger I refer to.

Or perhaps the Divinities have laughed and laughed as their previous playthings have destroyed themselves by repeatedly taking absurd levels of risk until their number is up.

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Which is why I'm suggesting a safety net with the Mastermind point, so we're not totally screwed.

 

[Alratan]

Death is not that important and is unlikely given that our body would have to be exterminated rather thoroughly for us to really die. What's more crippling is missing out on opportunity, which is the danger I refer to.

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Death is very important given how very limited our resurrection is.

 

[George]

Bare minimum, MM point scamming means that we utterly avoid negative consequences. It gives us time to sharpen our wits, and acquire leverage with our socially powerful party. We use that leverage to get into their perimeter, and then turn our scamming on the sect.

Best case scenario? We drive them off in defeat, and the Lich Lord owes us a debt, which we can use to scam them in turn.

Spend a month objective, and get a shot at rolling up every party involved with none being the wiser. Sounds good, right?

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A month and .4 BP. It's decent but I feel that we might be able to do better.

Incorrect, if they were a happy brotherhood, they would combine powers.

Another Diagram Mage is a potential rival, who might plunder your vaults for knowledge, not an implicit friend.

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Ah yes, which is why we know a spell from a Lich who is still alive. Trading happens, so fellow Diagramists aren't all bad. Further, even if they just come look at us, then they'll see the Ring and sincerely want to defer to us due to its effects.
Regardless, though, do you actually have a better search plan? One can take a sceptical position on anything but if you can't point to a better method then it's not very valuable.

Why? I'd expect the surviving Diagram magi to be enemies. They can't trust each other, as they can never know if one of them has been turned or wants to look their spells and resources. The only way they can survive like this is nigh perfect information security, otherwise one of them falling would have lead to the rest being rolled up long ago.



The locals have been living in fear of being brutally murdered by liches for generations, suppressing the population and keeping the place sparsely populated. You don't think the Sects wouldn't have a hard on for tracking down and brutally murdering the abominations against nature that keep causing them to lose face.

And Rihaku didn't say that those spells were Beyond enhanced. Just that they were spells known by the local liches, as a result, I conclude that they're regular spells.

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Why does Rihaku mention trading so much if they're all enemies? Further, have you looked at the effects of our Ring? It makes Diagramists want to defer to us. Further note that the only Diagramist we've ever met taught us. They don't need nigh perfect information security, because Cultivators are low on utility effects and Diagramists are good at escaping, so Cultivators will usually go for the kill.

No, I don't, because these Sects are strong enough that they don't live in fear of Liches and greedy enough that they don't give a shit that mortals and weaker cultivators do.

There's more to spell quality than 'Beyond' and 'Not Beyond' as evidenced by Rihaku's descriptions of Baenlixnaire's time spells and by Baenlixnaire's descriptions of our self-developed spells. Just as those spells are highly refined, other spells can be unrefined. I think being relatively unrefined is what we should call regular, with spells like Haltsuphrect's Quickening and our self-developed spells being masterpieces and Beyond being a tier higher than that.

 

[DonutAttack]

Death is very important given how very limited our resurrection is.

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Our Deaths are there for us to take risks, and a resource unexploited is a useless resource (death is also not that likely to happen). And I'm not suggesting facing a Reality Forming Cultivator: quite the opposite, really. Can we actually take the Sect leader down if it comes to it? If we directly investigate, will we really prevail? Even with the Overlord bonus on our side, that won't bridge a huge combat difference, and that seems exactly like the type of trap Rihaku likes to engage in.

 

[George]

I mean, Pass is the option that abandons safety and rewards thought and ingenuity in return for great rewards. These are the options we must take if we are to ever overcome the heroine--not through comfort in safe options, like that ever helped the previous playthings of the Divinities, but through risk and thought. The other costs of the option are laughable bar the one that tests our plans.

Plus, for those who favor Cultivation:

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Not necessarily? Personally, based on A Simple Transaction and Terrascape Academy, I think the thread is way better at impressing Rihaku with arguments and omakes than with tactics. Relative to Rihaku's standards, it's been my understanding that we're a bit shit at tactics.

 

[DarkKing98]

Our Deaths are there for us to take risks, and a resource unexploited is a useless resource (death is also not that likely to happen). And I'm not suggesting facing a Reality Forming Cultivator: quite the opposite, really. Can we actually take the Sect leader down if it comes to it?

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Do I need to point to you how long our respawns take for you to understand that death is a very bad thing to happen to us? Cuz it sounds like I have to do that.

 

[Rask]

On another note, the Lich might have some magic items that we want, rather than a spell. Something like a bag of holding, a movable mansion, or a divination basin.

 

[Valor]

[X] Stealth Insertion
-[X]Expend a Mastermind Point: Guarantee safe and quiet entry into the pocket dimension, if one exists. If one does not exist, Nameless will have a significantly improved chance to figure out what is going on.
[X] Mooch off Xiaoling
[X] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free (you must choose this option to Expend any Mastermind points this update)

 

[DonutAttack]

Not necessarily? Personally, based on A Simple Transaction and Terrascape Academy, I think the thread is way better at impressing Rihaku with arguments and omakes than with tactics. Relative to Rihaku's standards, it's been my understanding that we're a bit shit at tactics.

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We're going to need a plan either way, and I'm not seeing a good proposed plan we've been agreeing on for the Direct Investigation. There's a reason a plan is offered for it, and it's not because it's an easy option. Neither does Stealth Investigation have any tactics, but there's a mastermind point for it in those votes, so that gets a pass.

Do I need to point to you how long our respawns take for you to understand that death is a very bad thing to happen to us? Cuz it sounds like I have to do that.

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I'm just noting that being risk-averse won't get us anywhere, especially when said deaths are unlikely due to our body refusing to die unless destroyed.

I'm also very amenable to voting for Stealth Insertion, if I could see another argument for it.

 

[George]

We're going to need a plan either way, and I'm not seeing a good proposed plan we've been agreeing on for the Direct Investigation. There's a reason a plan is offered for it, and it's not because it's an easy option.



I'm just noting that being risk-averse won't get us anywhere, especially when said deaths are unlikely due to our body refusing to die unless destroyed.

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I think Direct Investigation leans more on our character's skills than on our planning. Planning is useful in preparing for a conversation, but you don't actually just follow the plan. However, for a search, you do actually follow the plan. Besides that difference, we have training in social skills and manipulation and we don't have training in searching for things.

 

[DarkKing98]

I'm just noting that being risk-averse won't get us anywhere, especially when said deaths are unlikely due to our body refusing to die unless destroyed.

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Yes. Cuz the reality forming Cultivest has absolutely no power at all to kill us, despite the fact he is fucking two levels above us. Even with a weakened base, we are still most likely far behind his level.

 

[Alectai]

What you're advocating isn't a risk of death though, it's a risk of discarding a great opportunity that requires effort to exploit, and hoping a better one drops in our lap that's easy to exploit.

And remember, you don't get the smart protagonist filter without giving up on the BP siren song that a significant number of people consider non-negotiable.

Plan plus Suizen's eyes would be best in the case of Plan.

 

[DonutAttack]

Yes. Cuz the reality forming Cultivest has absolutely no power at all to kill us, despite the fact he is fucking two levels above us. Even with a weakened base, we are still most likely far behind his level.

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Did you literally just ignore my previous post on this page, when I was questioning why we were having this discussion at all due to me being against confronting the guy?

What you're advocating isn't a risk of death though, it's a risk of discarding a great opportunity that requires effort to exploit, and hoping a better one drops in our lap that's easy to exploit.

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A good point, and one that I'm liable to agree with given that we actually get some plans going. I think I posted a few ideas a few pages back, and the one that proposed posing as a Diagram Lich was discarded. The Direct investigation mentions social then combat if social fails, so we'll have to account for both. We're left with resorting to the plan abusing our Clan names, but I really think we could get up to some mischief with Disguise, if we take into account our Ring's inability to be totally disguised. Disguise Ming instead?

 

[Alratan]

Ah yes, which is why we know a spell from a Lich who is still alive. Trading happens, so fellow Diagramists aren't all bad. Further, even if they just come look at us, then they'll see the Ring and sincerely want to defer to us due to its effects.
Regardless, though, do you actually have a better search plan? One can take a sceptical position on anything but if you can't point to a better method then it's not very valuable.

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Or piracy happens. Note how we can redevelop spells that were initially added to the Diagram by other Magi.

Why does Rihaku mention trading so much if they're all enemies? Further, have you looked at the effects of our Ring? It makes Diagramists want to defer to us. Further note that the only Diagramist we've ever met taught us. They don't need nigh perfect information security, because Cultivators are low on utility effects and Diagramists are good at escaping, so Cultivators will usually go for the kill.

No, I don't, because these Sects are strong enough that they don't live in fear of Liches and greedy enough that they don't give a shit that mortals and weaker cultivators do.

There's more to spell quality than 'Beyond' and 'Not Beyond' as evidence by Rihaku's descriptions of Baenlixnaire's time spells and by Baenlixnaire's descriptions of our self-developed spells. Just as those spells are highly refined, other spells can be unrefined. I think being relatively unrefined is what we should call regular, with spells like Haltsuphrect's Quickening and our self-developed spells being masterpieces and Beyond being a tier higher than that.

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He mentioned trading. He also mentioned 'sword point'. I suspect that we'll be doing at least as much 'trading' as trading. And even the latter is probably of the kind 'if you don't give up all your knowledge I'll tell the Empire where you are' kind.

Low level Cultivators are low on utility effects. High level ones are only moderately less versatile than Diagram Mages. As Diagram Mages are very versatile indeed, that means that Cultivation arts must be much broader than you're giving credit for. After all, Xianxia cultivation covers the whole gamut of magical powers.

And yes there's more to spell quality than Beyond or not. There's whether a spell is mastered, a process that now takes Nameless' spare time for a couple of weeks, and he couldn't previously be taught how to do by his mentor over months or years.

A good point, and one that I'm liable to agree with given that we actually get some plans going. I think I posted a few ideas a few pages back, and the one that proposed posing as a Diagram Lich was discarded. The Direct investigation mentions social then combat if social fails, so we'll have to account for both. We're left with resorting to the plan abusing our Clan names, but I really think we could get up to some mischief with Disguise, if we take into account our Ring's inability to be totally disguised. Disguise Ming instead?

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I gave a detailed plan to leverage Scamming to facilitate the Direct approach, which had contingencies for what happened if things turned towards hostility.

On Xiaoling, her superior foundations probably make it obvious at a glance that she's not a local no matter what illusion we put on her. The same applies to Nameless. Any illusion based plan is best off subverting locals and putting the illusions on them.

 

[DonutAttack]

I gave a detailed plan to leverage Scamming to facilitate the Direct approach, which had contingencies for what happened if things turned towards hostility.

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Fair enough. I'd forgotten about that.

[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Scam People
[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress

That's a good plan, but I don't know whether or not it fits with the theme of Direct Investigation, given we're literally going to just investigate and ignore the Cultivators until they come up to meet 'n greet us, leading to diplomacy and (potentially) combat/"surreptitiousness."