Even Further Beyond [Complete]

[George]

THe way chronomancy works it should directly stack with other forms of boosters without diminishing returns, O think.



Remember that we literally have a Charmed Life. I think you're substantially over estimating the danger here. Note this line 'You'll live a charmed life, guaranteed a position of prosperity and power until you reach your maturity. ' We reach our maturity at eighteen. We still have that guarantee of having a position of prosperity and power for the next four years. That guarantee would be broken if someone could do as you propose.

I also believe that the character's father gave him political training. We took the '[ ] A Way With Words - Focus on your father's teachings, especially his methods of personal manipulation. Also improves skills of perception, self-discipline, negotiation and charisma.' option.



And we'd be training with her. Teaching a tremendously gifted student should help her as well, particularly as we should soon be able to catch up with her and so be able to cultivate alongside her rather than under her instruction. I also think that she would be gratful enough for the cultivation resources we give her to help.

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Certainly, but that doesn't mean that there are many other good boosters to cultivation speed available.

I think you're assuming our adventure is on easy mode and that that's hubristic. It wouldn't be an adventure without risk, and from a meta perspective, now that we have a Phylactery, Rihaku is safe to use up our lives without ending the quest.

Oh oops my bad, I thought it only took A Social Butterfly.

I don't think this is the sort of setting where teaching and being taught is important to cultivation speed if you aren't gaining some new secret method and training a newbie isn't likely to help her sword skills. Sure, though, it may be possible to bribe her with resources for combat lessons.

 

[Origami Clock]

Given how our adorable minion had to be told that we were a Diagram Mage, rather than a very well concealed Soul Chrysalis Cultuvator, not to mention the existence of Cultivator assassins who presumably don't want to go advertising their power level all the time, presumably there are Cultivation methods for concealing your Cultivation level, never mind the possibility for Artifacts with similar effects.

 

[Alratan]

Little difficult to do that when our soul has been bound into a near platonic symbol of The Diagram of Logos. Far better to be treated as a diagramist, and then reveal our true power to the world at a suitably dramatic moment.

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The Empire's social setup and history is built on the superiority of Cultivators to everyone else, particularly including Diagram Mages, who are universally loathed terrorist abominations against nature. Being publicly known as a Diagram magi and so associating with them does not seem to be a good idea at all when it comes to building a reputation.

I think that we actively don't want a reputation as a Diagram magus, and we were be able to make vastly more use of our very heavy investment in social skills if we're instead seen as a Cultivation prodigy, as that's the metric by which this society generally measures worth.

This feels like a slipery slope argument. I'm not suggesting mono-focusing on Diagram magic. I'm suggesting looking for Diagram magic interactions with Cultivation and Binary magic to research now. This will incentivice activating those benefits by getting either Cultivation or Binary magic. Also, as someone who voted against Diagram magic most of the way, I don't really buy the whole "harder to break the pattern next time" argument.

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We've already careered off down that slippery slope, and we're still accelerating. The slippery slope fallacy doesn't mean that there aren't actual slippery slopes out there, and I think this is one.

Point, though I'll note that's not necessarily the only interpretation. Every Genius being afforded to her could mean a wide variety of things, including "she has direct access to the minds of all smart dead people," rather than Thrice-Great. It does provide some evidence regarding her being Thrice-Great. That said, I feel like there's a significant leap to be made in addressing the rest of the arguments: regarding needing to be known as Thrice-Great prior to the heroine and her revealing herself as Thrice-Great within the next four months (the length of time I'm advocating keeping our Thrice-Great nature secret).

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Genius has a pretty well defined meaning in xianxia themed settings though, and it doesn't mean intellectually smart people.

Issue with pretending not to be a diagram mage is that it gives a larger cut in our power. Right now, we're at early Soul Chrysalis power in Diagram, and nothing in cultivation. If we hide Diagram, first, our companion already knows about it, and second, it gives us a big power drop. Easiest way to hide something is to not have it until you're ready to reveal it.

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We could still use Diagram Magic in dungeons. It's just in public where we'd have to pretend its something else. Consider as well that most people would probably have no idea whether we were using Diagram Magic or an esoteric Cultivation art or an Artifact. Diagram Magi are incredibly rare.

Certainly, but that doesn't mean that there are many other good boosters to cultivation speed available.

I think you're assuming our adventure is on easy mode and that that's hubristic. It wouldn't be an adventure without risk, and from a meta perspective, now that we have a Phylactery, Rihaku is safe to use up our lives without ending the quest.

Oh oops my bad, I thought it only took A Social Butterfly.

I don't think this is the sort of setting where teaching and being taught is important to cultivation speed if you aren't gaining some new secret method and training a newbie isn't likely to help her sword skills. Sure, though, it may be possible to bribe her with resources for combat lessons.

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I think that A Charmed Life quite literally means that the adventure is on easy mode until we character creation ends at the age of eighteen and the Heroine wakes up. That's part of what we paid two celestial orbs for, which was a major investment. We're still effectively in the prologue before the game starts in earnest.

Given how our adorable minion had to be told that we were a Diagram Mage, rather than a very well concealed Soul Chrysalis Cultuvator, not to mention the existence of Cultivator assassins who presumably don't want to go advertising their power level all the time, presumably there are Cultivation methods for concealing your Cultivation level, never mind the possibility for Artifacts with similar effects.

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Her reaction also shows us the respect that powerful cultivators are held in, and why it would be very advantageous to be one.

 

[Redshirt Army]

Given how our adorable minion had to be told that we were a Diagram Mage, rather than a very well concealed Soul Chrysalis Cultuvator, not to mention the existence of Cultivator assassins who presumably don't want to go advertising their power level all the time, presumably there are Cultivation methods for concealing your Cultivation level, never mind the possibility for Artifacts with similar effects.

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I'm not really interested in spending, uh, any real amount of effort acquiring those, though. We have to gain power ludicrously quickly to gain the kind of influence and combat prowess we'll need against the heroine, and trying to hide our advancement will be both exceptionally difficult and actively counterproductive.

In that context, since us being "outed" is an inevitability, I'm only (grudgingly!) accepting moderating (not pausing!) our Cultivation until we can get the maximum useful impact out of being Thrice Great. Getting an artifact to hide that is utterly pointless.

 

[Origami Clock]

I'm not really interested in spending, uh, any real amount of effort acquiring those, though. We have to gain power ludicrously quickly to gain the kind of influence and combat prowess we'll need against the heroine, and trying to hide our advancement will be both exceptionally difficult and actively counterproductive.

In that context, since us being "outed" is an inevitability, I'm only (grudgingly!) accepting moderating (not pausing!) our Cultivation until we can get the maximum useful impact out of being Thrice Great. Getting an artifact to hide that is pointless.

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What if it's a non-specific concealment Artifact that can help with our slight problem with our phlactery triggering shiny-lust in all who perceive it? Artifacts don't generally have only a single function or point of synergy potential.

 

[Redshirt Army]

What if it's a non-specific concealment Artifact that can help with our slight problem with our phlactery triggering shiny-lust in all who perceive it? Artifacts don't generally have only a single function or point of synergy potential.

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Then I think you're staking way too much on the artifact we craft having a fairly specific useful effect, as opposed to the dozen of other less useful forms a "conceal information" artifact might take.

 

[drake_azathoth]

...I think there's something that a lot of people are overlooking because Dad and Mom totally know we're a freak of nature and are the coolest parents ever.

"Son, now that you're immortal, you should enjoy copious amounts of drugs with no chance of overdose." Four years is considered a prodigal speed for someone to make peak Ego Barrier. Five Kilos of magic cocaine can get us there in a week. That's almost definitely a lethal dose for most people or everyone would do it. There are plenty of cultivation boosters yet to be found and our nature with the Ring phylactery makes enjoying them so much easier.

So yeah, there are plenty of cultivation boosters yet to be found, and we are in a good position to abuse them mercilessly. Something to keep in mind for Imperial Center. Be ready to snort an elephant up our nose if it helps cultivation.

 

[Alratan]

...I think there's something that a lot of people are overlooking because Dad and Mom totally know we're a freak of nature and are the coolest parents ever.

"Son, now that you're immortal, you should enjoy copious amounts of drugs with no chance of overdose." Four years is considered a prodigal speed for someone to make Ego Barrier. Five Kilos of magic cocaine can get us there in a week. That's almost definitely a lethal dose for most people or everyone would do it. There are plenty of cultivation boosters yet to be found and our nature with the Ring phylactery makes enjoying them so much easier.

So yeah, there are plenty of cultivation boosters yet to be found, and we are in a good position to abuse them mercilessly. Something to keep in mind for Imperial Center. Be ready to snort an elephant up our nose if it helps cultivation.

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Clearly we must turn the spirit cocaine into a consumable cultivation boosting artifact and snort that.

Joking aside, it may actually make sense to do so, as it's a gift to Nameless from his father, one with actual emotional significance.

 

[Origami Clock]

Then I think you're staking way too much on the artifact we craft having a fairly specific useful effect, as opposed to the dozen of other less useful forms a "conceal information" artifact might take.

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Taking a Doylist perspective for a moment, we've not been given any indication that Artifact creation is a gatcha game rather than the votes we've seen. There will be variance, but we are the ones who choose. Besides, any QM as fond of devil's advocacy as ours isn't likely to give us transparantly superior/inferior options.

 

[DonutAttack]

I think there's a bit more to being Thrice-Great than we've considered. Rihaku mentions The Thrice-Great, not a Thrice-Great, implying there's some sort of legend based on it. Without further information on whether that is a legend beneficial to us or harmful to us, it wold be wise to reveal all our cards this early. This is extreme, but suppose the legend talks about the Thrice-Great being some kind of threat to the empire--we would be in great danger. So I think there's a degree of importance to caution.

 

[Alratan]

I think there's a bit more to being Thrice-Great than we've considered. Rihaku mentions The Thrice-Great, not a Thrice-Great, implying there's some sort of legend based on it. Without further information on whether that is a legend beneficial to us or harmful to us, it wold be wise to reveal all our cards this early. This is extreme, but suppose the legend talks about the Thrice-Great being some kind of threat to the empire--we would be in great danger. So I think there's a degree of importance to caution.

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We can pretty confident that it won't cause any problems like that, because of this:

[ ] BASK In My Glory, Mongrels! - This option avoids the Spoiled Passion while near-maximizing Cultivation gains. It is similar to various Cultivation-maximizing combos without taking an overly dangerous combination of Passions at this early stage of development. Your character will do all he can to bring glory to the clan, Cultivating at frenetic speeds and glad-handing to cement the accrued influence. Expect to be a thought leader for the coming generation. A Lackey or two is virtually guaranteed, and many powerful families will compete aggressively for a betrothal. [A Strong Foundation, A Blazing Sun, Social Butterfly, Grandfather]

*Reveal your Thrice-Great nature. Halfway through the Soul Chrysalis stage at the age of 10, able to unman armies of lessers​

Being revealed as Thrice-Great would lead to being a thought leader and having families compete aggressively for their daughter to marry him. If he was a prophesied enemy that would not be the case.

 

[DonutAttack]

Good point. In that case, being less discreet will likely be my favored option--we can't remain unknown forever. At the same time, we really shouldn't be broadcasting our strength around, so maybe a compromise option? Masquerade as a peak-Ego barrier and acquire the Prodigious Strength spell, in addition to obtaining an artifact and socializing with Suizen. A nice balance of strengths that doesn't really tip our hand.

EDIT: Would it even be possible to find the hidden "level" of Ego Barrier in the four months? If so, I'd recommend going for that, in addition to the above.

 

[drake_azathoth]

As I stated, I don't think the 'danger' of revealing Thrice-Great is so much in the way of dissection as it is dinner invitations we can't refuse, honey traps, and severely aggressive betrothal proposals.

Not so much a horrible thing as that it will probably derail our plans to risk our life in Southern Vane severely. Many would see that as doing Yong Shen a favor.

"HEY GUYS JUST DISCOVERED COLD FUSION OVER HERE, CHECK IT OUT HERE'S PROOF, COOL RIGHT? I'LL EXPLAIN LATER HOW IT WORKS GOTTA GO GET CRAZY WASTED AND GO SKYDIVING OVER THE AMAZON JUNGLE TONIGHT!!!!!"

 

[Duquette7]

I would approve of forging one Artifact before we end the time skip.

But here's a thought, How about a Scrying Aid?

One of the explicitly mentioned synergies between the Diagram and Cultivation was the use of scrying to locate reagents as they play a major roll in advancement, as seen here.

Diagram divination to locate rare Cultivation resources

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You can reach peak Ego Barrier in a week of 8-hour Cultivating sessions given your time dilation and wealth. Just buy horrifically inefficient but powerful reagents and absorb them with a modest fraction of your vast money.

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However we gave up access to a top tier Scry spell for our beyond point generator, that was the right choice, but it has a severe cost.

We need Scrying to find reagents, vastly improving our speed of cultivation, find Dungeons/Treasures/Cultivation Teachers/Lich's and so forth, and to hopefully find out about the Hero.

It is a discreet one time use of Essence with a massive, and varied payoff that allows us to make huge progress on multiple vital fronts without splitting the focus of the Artifact, or incurring Fate's attention.

 

[Blorcyn]

Note that the ability to see it made Fate so pissy at Baenlixnaire that it Doomed him. I'm not sure following in those footsteps is a great idea.

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Ah, but where's the cost? We're already on the wrong side of fate. Already does it plan how to send us to unending oblivion. Fate's favour was never on the cards for us, so what's the harm if it gets pissy at us for trying to look under the hood, so to speak.

 

[OctarineShrike]

Ooh. Here's a thought. Truth, Justice, and the imperial way? Perhaps we should ferret out what Suizen thinks that is?

Also, no Fate Sign Research unless we get TRUTH or something. There's a difference between fate simply favoring the heroine, and fate actively trying to kill us final destination style in addition to that.

 

[HatsuZ]

So...

I know that Cultivation can be used to make more (or more powerful) artifacts due to the greater amount of essence.

Also, chronomancy from the Diagram can be used to get more training time for Cultivation.

But are there any other synergies?

 

[Redshirt Army]

So...

I know that Cultivation can be used to make more (or more powerful) artifacts due to the greater amount of essence.

Also, chronomancy from the Diagram can be used to get more training time for Cultivation.

But are there any other synergies?

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Use more potent Organ Refined blood for Hemomancy? Use the scrying and teleportation of the Diagram to gain materials for Cultivation? Make some of those force amplifying diagrams we were promised to buff ourselves in combat? Create Artifacts that boost Diagram/Cultivation effects?

 

[OctarineShrike]

Using Transfiguration to improve the purity of cultivation materials?

 

[George]

So...

I know that Cultivation can be used to make more (or more powerful) artifacts due to the greater amount of essence.

Also, chronomancy from the Diagram can be used to get more training time for Cultivation.

But are there any other synergies?

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From the opening post, we have "Or consider the simple destruction incipient in a kinetic-amplification Diagram married to a Cultivator's brute strength."
It'll be a bit easier to deduce them once we make a non-magnum opus artifact and actually cultivate some.

 

[Alratan]

As I stated, I don't think the 'danger' of revealing Thrice-Great is so much in the way of dissection as it is dinner invitations we can't refuse, honey traps, and severely aggressive betrothal proposals.

Not so much a horrible thing as that it will probably derail our plans to risk our life in Southern Vane severely. Many would see that as doing Yong Shen a favor.

"HEY GUYS JUST DISCOVERED COLD FUSION OVER HERE, CHECK IT OUT HERE'S PROOF, COOL RIGHT? I'LL EXPLAIN LATER HOW IT WORKS GOTTA GO GET CRAZY WASTED AND GO SKYDIVING OVER THE AMAZON JUNGLE TONIGHT!!!!!"

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Remember that Namless can teleport, and the world is a big place. He can, if he chooses, announce what he is, cause a massive fuss, and then teleport away and head off to Southern Vane, and all the time expectation will build, ripe for exploitation when he returns.

I would approve of forging one Artifact before we end the time skip.

But here's a thought, How about a Scrying Aid?

One of the explicitly mentioned synergies between the Diagram and Cultivation was the use of scrying to locate reagents as they play a major roll in advancement, as seen here.

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If we're going to make one artifact, why not make two or three different ones.

Ah, but where's the cost? We're already on the wrong side of fate. Already does it plan how to send us to unending oblivion. Fate's favour was never on the cards for us, so what's the harm if it gets pissy at us for trying to look under the hood, so to speak.

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It can apparently screw with our Artifice. I suspect there are rules that the divinity had to follow, even though they rigged the game board. Messing around with Fate like that may open the door for them to screw with us far more directly. I'd like to keep charmed life if at all possible.

On the subject of charmed life, if we do manage to kill the Heroine in a way that will take her a decade or so to come back from before she awakens, then I wonder if we'd keep a Charmed Life, as the Heroine wouldn't be there to oppose it.

So...

I know that Cultivation can be used to make more (or more powerful) artifacts due to the greater amount of essence.

Also, chronomancy from the Diagram can be used to get more training time for Cultivation.

But are there any other synergies?

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Cultivate implanted artifacts as they're part of our body and contain some of our essence, or consumable artifacts that are assimilated via Cultivation.
Use artifacts that boost Cultivation.
Use Naturalism to make a place rich in energy for cultivation.
Use Naturalism and Artifacts to make a place create strong spirit alchemy reagents.
Use Flesh Grand Diagrams to optimise the effect of Cultivation on the Body.
Use Stone spells to upgrade Cultivation resources.
Use a Knowledge Battle diagram to grant an incredible degree of self knowledge to aid Cultivation.
Use a Force Grand Diagram to control the flow of Qi/Essence (or simply create it) in the environment and supply it to a Cultivator to accelerate Cultivation.
Use a Force Battle Diagram to augment a Cultivator's ability to control their internal energy flows
Use Artifice to make tools for alchemy or getting reagents
Use Artifice to make tracking devices that find cultivation resources

 

[GiovanniPapazzi]

From the opening post, we have "Or consider the simple destruction incipient in a kinetic-amplification Diagram married to a Cultivator's brute strength."
It'll be a bit easier to deduce them once we make a non-magnum opus artifact and actually cultivate some.

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something something llewellen i cant spell's prodigious might multiplying our FIST something something cultivating stages mulitply our base strength pretty obvious synergy imo

Actually its even more then i originally thought, as by cultivating furhter we can stack might and quickening, muktiplying our combat effectiveness as well as improving our base str and vit

 

[Alectai]

One of the reasons why it's important to at least get Ego Barrier somehow though is that we can't actually Divine for Cultivation resources until we're actually a Cultivator.

And we've got two Cultivators travelling with us now.

 

[Redshirt Army]

Since the spell keeps being brought up:

Llewyn's Prodigious Might, it raises a normal human to the level of an Organ Refining peak. Cultivators above Organ Refinement would experience roughly a ~doubling of their bodily strength if casting it on themselves.

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What interests me here is the "if casting it on themselves" bit, since it seems to imply a mode where we can cast it on others, not unlike the Quickening.

Doubled strength and quadrupled speed, potentially further augmented by Blood based metamagic? That's a pretty hefty effectiveness modifier for the whole party...

 

[OctarineShrike]

Yeah we may want to get that in the near future.