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Even Further Beyond [Complete]

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We are paying a really huge price for that tutor though (2 choices!).

Also just getting any tutor for it at all won't necessarily be a problem for BASK. Our grandfather does after all have great means at his disposal. Enticing someone who knows diagram magic to teach us is not at all unlikely to be within his capabilities, even if it most likely won't be an as good one as the lich.

Just As Planned really suffers from having our father rather than our grandfather as a mentor. Our grandfather just has orders of magnitude more resources at his disposal.
 
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UBR said:
We are paying a really huge price for that tutor though (2 choices!).

Also just getting any tutor for it at all won't necessarily be a problem for BASK. Our grandfather does after all have great means at his disposal. Enticing someone who knows diagram magic to teach us is not at all unlikely to be within his capabilities, even if it most likely won't be an as good one as the lich.

Just As Planned really suffers from having our father rather than our grandfather as a mentor. Our grandfather just has orders of magnitude more resources at his disposal.
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Do you think they will negotiate with the guy who killed their entire system? If Yong Shan was actually both willing and able to find us a Diagram mentor, BASK would have noted that gramps would do so for his favourite grandson.

This, incidentally is the value of the Lich- a resource that even Titans cannot easily mobilise, whose experience and buffing skills will be invaluable to us.

Also, we don't really suffer for Father - the Patriarch controls the resources, and our dad is his brother. It's not like we are far from the seat of power in any circumstance. An option with Father is much more competent at using any skills we acquire to resolve problems - after all, what is the point of being peerlessly powerful if you can't properly use it to resolve problems like how to find the heroine, or get past her guards, etc? We will know what to do with power, and unlock a fast track option for gaining it in the form of high Diagram-Cultivation synergy with the help of the Lich.
 
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RedV said:
Do you think they will negotiate with the guy who killed their entire system? If Yong Shan was actually both willing and able to find us a Diagram mentor, BASK would have noted that gramps would do so for his favourite grandson.

This, incidentally is the value of tge Lich- a resource that even Titans cannot mobilise, whose experience and buffing skills will be invaluable to us.
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Most likely. Few groups posses unity of purpose enough that no single individual would be willing to work with the enemy if the offered benefits are large enough. It is definitely not the case that the description of BASK notes everything our grandfather could provide us at later dates. That is pretty obvious just from reading the rather short description.

Don't underestimate Titans. They posses the power to change the world. From what we have been told, we can't even conclude that it would be beyond our grandfather to broker a peace treaty if he really puts his mind to it.

Conjured Blade said:
From a cultivation resources standpoint this is somewhat correctible via our spoiled brat fund and transmutation.
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It is most likely really hard to match the accumulated resources of the oldest Titan. Those things can mitigate it to some extend, but resource shortage is a real problem for Just As Planned, at least if we succeed in getting Chronomancy (which would greatly increase our resource need).
 
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UBR said:
Most likely. Few groups posses unity of purpose enough that no single individual would be willing to work with the enemy if the offered benefits are large enough. It is definitely not the case that the description of BASK notes everything our grandfather could provide us at later dates. That is pretty obvious just from reading the rather short description.

Don't underestimate Titans. They posses the power to change the world. From what we have been told, we can't even conclude that it would be beyond our grandfather to broker a peace treaty if he really puts his mind to it.
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If he could have done so, then BASK would note that he had unlocked a Lich level mentor of Diagram for us. Since he hasn't, it is either that he wants to but cannot, or that he does not want to find a mentor for us.

After all, we have hard evidence that the world shaking power of a Titan did jack all to find a mentor after five years of practicing Diagram openly...
 
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RedV said:
If he could have done so, then BASK would note that he had unlocked a Lich level mentor of Diagram for us. Since he hasn't, it is either that he wants to but cannot, or that he does not what to find a mentor for us.
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Probably not a mentor on the level of a lich, but some mentor who knows diagram magic is not at all unlikely.
 
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Our father is the first son of a seventeenth wife, I imagine the Titan has many, many sons and grandsons vying for resources.

However that said, our father, more than filial and fraternal affection is the chap for whom things work out. The man who can yell out 'hahahaha, just as planned' when blindsided and have everyone believe him. I reckon he's going to have disproportionate wealth for his age anyway.
 
Blorcyn said:
Our father is the first son of a seventeenth wife, I imagine the Titan has many, many sons and grandsons vying for resources.

However that said, our father, more than filial and fraternal affection is the chap for whom things work out. The man who can yell out 'hahahaha, just as planned' when blindsided and have everyone believe him. I reckon he's going to have disproportionate wealth for his age anyway.
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Very possibly, but that is still most likely a pittance compared to the wealth of someone who has been a Titan for millennia.

Our father might be impressive compared to other people at his stage of cultivation, but he isn't even playing in the same league as our grandfather.
 
UBR said:
It is most likely really hard to match the accumulated resources of the oldest Titan. Those things can mitigate it to some extend, but resource shortage is a real problem for Just As Planned, at least if we succeed in getting Chronomancy (which would greatly increase our resource need).
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We can demonstrate our hax method of advancing that is unique to us with Chrono to the Patriarch and inner circle, which will be a convincing argument for getting more resources to cultivate since it has strong, logical reasons behind it.

If they want hard evidence, we can take a loan with our Young Master credit and use Chrono/other Diagram synergy to highly accelerate breakthroughs and convince them- this will likely result in the serious attention of the clan, with our father's reputation for gaining highly effective results through unorthodox means...

Otherwise we can depend on other Diagram interactions like oracular magic to find high level resources and tombs to plunder, direct our clan to them and ask for a share of the lootz. Or go there ourselves with teleport Diagram to escape if possible.

We do have options for resources.
 
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RedV said:
We can demonstrate our hax method of advancing that is unique to us with Chrono ti the Patriarch amd inner circle, which will be a convincing argument for getting more resources to cultivate since it has logical reasons behind it.

If they want hard evidence, we can take a loan with our Young Master credit and use Chrono to highly accelerate breakthroughs and convince them.

Otherwise we can depend on other Diagram interactions like oracular magic to find high level resources and tombs to plunder, direct our clan to them and ask for a share of the lootz. Or go there ourselves with teleport Diagram to escape if possible.

We do have options for resources.
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These things would take even more time further delaying our efforts. Also, extreme talent alone might not be enough to convince the clan to spend everything they got on us. Loyalty to the leading faction within the clan can also be an important factor for that. Having our grandfather as a mentor can be of great help with that.
 
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RedV said:
We can demonstrate our hax method of advancing that is unique to us with Chrono to the Patriarch and inner circle, which will be a convincing argument for getting more resources to cultivate since it has strong, logical reasons behind it.

If they want hard evidence, we can take a loan with our Young Master credit and use Chrono/other Diagram synergy to highly accelerate breakthroughs and convince them- this will likely result in the serious attention of the clan, with our father's reputation for gaining highly effective results through unorthodox means...

Otherwise we can depend on other Diagram interactions like oracular magic to find high level resources and tombs to plunder, direct our clan to them and ask for a share of the lootz. Or go there ourselves with teleport Diagram to escape if possible.

We do have options for resources.
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As has been stated 1000 times, earliest we can get chrono is 18 so for the first 18 years we wont have any hax method of advancing to show off.
Finding high level resources is both dangerous and costly in time, if its a large enough amount of money the clan cares about it they would have already found it. They wouldn't send someone to pick up pennys.
 
UBR said:
These things would take even more time further delaying our efforts. Also not already having a close relationship with our grandfather opens up the risk of rivalries within the clan opposing giving us wast amounts of resources (which while I'm sure we could overcome with the help of our father, could further delay things).
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No, they should at max take a month to demonstrate that we can use Chrono to accelerate cultivation- we just have to show its potential to persuade them to invest in us, and its potential is evident in the highly accelerated rate of cultivation we can show...

Also, remember that Bookworm gives us a bonus to adults taking us seriously. Since we are not bullshitting, and actually have a hax method of advancing, persuading them will not be very difficult, especially with the support of our father, who is a persuasive man.

pancakes said:
As has been stated 1000 times, earliest we can get chrono is 18 so for the first 18 years we wont have any hax method of advancing to show off.
Finding high level resources is both dangerous and costly in time, if its a large enough amount of money the clan cares about it they would have already found it. They wouldn't send someone to pick up pennys.
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Earliest is not eighteen. Rihaku said we can get it operational before eighteen, which could be fourteen or sixteen or whatever. Not to mention the other Diagram synergies, which we can achieve faster than that and are also 'spectacularly unfair' AND unique to us as the Thrice Great.

They're also an unprecedented way of getting results, which would definitely draw attention and investment.
 
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There's more than Chronomancy in terms of "Huge advantages we can get by going full ham on Diagram first".

why is it people keep tunnel visioning on chronomancy
 
Alectai said:
There's more than Chronomancy in terms of "Huge advantages we can get by going full ham on Diagram first".

why is it people keep tunnel visioning on chronomancy
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Yeah, we could use oracular magic, for instance, to help our clan identify long term areas of strategic interest before other people- our father is the chief strategist and so we have a direct hotline there and should be able to persuade them. That would increase our importance to the clan by a lot.

Chronomancy is just one of the most unfair advantage we can have, and we should focus on it if given the choice, but the rest of diagram is not useless. Mages set up sub-space dimensions to sneak attack people and run, which is a strategy that could come online for the clan pretty fast with our help.
 
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Alectai said:
There's more than Chronomancy in terms of "Huge advantages we can get by going full ham on Diagram first".

why is it people keep tunnel visioning on chronomancy
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Because it is one of the few things which can compare to the really huge advantage of having our grandfather as our mentor and extreme cultivation rate.

The difference between our father and our grandfather is vast. Just as Planned needs the long shot strategy of things like chronomancy to justify taking that approach.
 
UBR said:
Very possibly, but that is still most likely a pittance compared to the wealth of someone who has been a Titan for millennia.

Our father might be impressive compared to other people at his stage of cultivation, but he isn't even playing in the same league as our grandfather.
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Yeah, no I agree, but for comparators, I'm thinking it's the difference between a hundred billionaire and a billionaire.

At our stage of development, it may be absolutely adequate.
 
pancakes said:
Because RedV brought it up? Are there any other methods that we know of the increase cultivation speed?
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We know that non- Chronomancy methods exist because Rihaku said that 'spectacularly unfair' synergies exist, and Just as Planned is the quickest way of getting those online.

Chronomancy, which can buy 'subjective eons' of time for us to break through before the heroine, is just the most powerful one we know of.
 
Blorcyn said:
Yeah, no I agree, but for comparators, I'm thinking it's the difference between a hundred billionaire and a billionaire.

At our stage of development, it may be absolutely adequate.
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Even higher quality resources is pretty much always useful in xianxia. It may be adequate by normal standards, but we really need to advance as fast as possible.

The kind of reasoning in your post might very well be why we will need as much influence as possible for that. For example, giving resources that could be used to increase someone's chance of breaking through to the Grand Solipsism level just to cut a month away from us reaching Soul Chrysalis might seem like insanity to a lot of people, but speeding up our cultivation by a month or even a week would be very important for us.

RedV said:
We know that non- Chronomancy methods exist because Rihaku said that 'spectacularly unfair' synergies exist, and Just as Planned is the quickest way of getting those online.

Chronomancy, which can buy 'subjective eons' of time for us to break through before the heroine, is just the most powerful one we know of.
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Not really. BASK does after all already have some of them.
 
Blorcyn said:
Our father is the first son of a seventeenth wife, I imagine the Titan has many, many sons and grandsons vying for resources.

However that said, our father, more than filial and fraternal affection is the chap for whom things work out. The man who can yell out 'hahahaha, just as planned' when blindsided and have everyone believe him. I reckon he's going to have disproportionate wealth for his age anyway.
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I bet our character's grandfather has less children and grandchildren than you think. He's been at this for over five thousand years, so I'd imagine that he's lost a lot of wives and descendants over the years.
 
UBR said:
Because it is one of the few things which can compare to the really huge advantage of having our grandfather as our mentor and extreme cultivation rate.

The difference between our father and our grandfather is vast. Just as Planned needs the long shot strategy of things like chronomancy to justify taking that approach.
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Oh also, long shot. You mean long shot by eighteen. Do you not want these magics by a later date? Does failing at eighteen mean a hard failure? Are we not much closer to succeeding sooner than any other option?

None of us deny how good an option grandfather is, or how good an artifact and cultivation are going to be. We just want to try for it after obtaining that's going to multiply those advantages signficantly. If grandfather is 0.7 orbs worth of advantage, imagine how great the advantage would be with time manipulation to learn from him and keep up (/more closely up) with his likely transfinite speed.
 
Blorcyn said:
Yeah, no I agree, but for comparators, I'm thinking it's the difference between a hundred billionaire and a billionaire.

At our stage of development, it may be absolutely adequate.
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Yeah, remember that our pocket money was enough to go for half a stage in addition to the resources we got for regular breakthroughs with Spoiled.

Using that with Chrono for quick breakthroughs is going to be a very persuasive argument in getting inner council to invest in us...
 
...Planned people, you do realize that you are lacking in a Strong Foundation, right? That thing everyone was worrying about back when Scion was trying to get chosen.
 
Just as a refresher:
Rihaku said:
*Just as Planned relies heavily on getting Chronomancy or other Diagram arts of equal utility sometime in the future, which is explicitly risky and expensive. Further, though you are an intelligent child with a talent and inventive flair for Diagram magic, you are not a world-shaking genius as with Cultivation. It will take some thinking and clean execution to get what you need unscathed, though the payoff is admittedly very substantial.
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While the dead horse of Chronomancy's risks has been thoroughly abused at this point, I'm going to trot it out one more time. Yes, Just As Planned has strengths and there's stuff other than Chronomancy on offer, but let's not deceive ourselves into thinking that we can cheat our way into getting the same Cultivation perks as the option dedicated to maximizing it. It was and remains a gamble. Fitting, since we'd be learning at the feet of the King of Games.
 
Orm Embar said:
Just as a refresher:

While the dead horse of Chronomancy's risks has been thoroughly abused at this point, I'm going to trot it out one more time. Yes, Just As Planned has strengths and there's stuff other than Chronomancy on offer, but let's not deceive ourselves into thinking that we can cheat our way into getting the same Cultivation perks as the option dedicated to maximizing it.
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There are many options we can shoot for, and each of them has a effect unique to the Thrice Great that Rihaku describes as spectacularly unfair. I don't think that we will be such a failure that we will not grasp any of these multiple cheats, since we took literally every Diagram boosting option, and have a mentor who can solve many questions outright for us. There isn't any more Diagram focussed build than JAP that is possible- I am sure we can grasp powerful synergies if BASK could grasp one with only one option focussed on any Diagram at all.
 
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