Empire of the Emerald Stars (Legend of the Five Rings)

[Karugus]

On that note, one of the good ways to make peacetime gains in province strength... ally with some nice, large, warlike clan. They're going to pick up marginal planets along the way. We'll throw in shugenja support to make/keep those planets livable via terraforming, they throw in the military support to keep them from being taken by the other clans, and we both profit. Now, we're not going to be ready to do this straight off, but it's certainly a workable plan.

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Does anyone realize that this is the crux of my plan? To use the fact the Mantis and Crab are going to actually be able to relate to us and vice versa to get in on the pickings?

Like holy shit, the entire point of going Elemental Legionnaire was that we'd have the respect of the Crab, the Lion, the Mantis, and to a lesser extent the Unicorn. To get them to see us as 'one of them' as opposed to just another overbearing yojimbo obsessed with the theology of the Empire. It's to cross that gap so that we can approach them as something other than 'the weird clan that emphasises the Kami and theology over all else'. If any other Phoenix champion approached them, it would be suspicious because they'd immediately assume 'shugenja shenanigans', but if Hiraku approaches them it's in clear, obvious military terms. 'They're obviously looking to secure more territory, and bolster their armies, so as to ensure the defense and wealth of their clan.' To the rest of the Empire it looks like a natural consequence of getting our teeth knocked out by the Unicorn as opposed to a suspicious power play.

 

[Sirrocco]

So rather than claiming I'm embracing jingoism for the sake of jingoism consider that I'm not advocating we play our martial bent straightforwardly, I'm saying we use it as leverage so that we can actually get some kind of mutually beneficial agreement set up for us. We flat out can't afford to wage a war by ourselves, but the whole point of this is so that we don't need to fight a war just by ourselves.

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Okay. having reread the points you made, I admit that I misunderstood you to a degree. I read your original "We want to expand! Military is a great idea!" and drew the shortest line between two points. The position you've been advocating is a lot more nuanced than I gave it credit for.

Oh I agree it's not straightforward, what I'm saying is there's definitive diplomatic perks from my plan, more so than just being a Daimyo in fact.

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I will freely acknowledge that the Diamyo pick is explicitly bad at diplomacy (or at least at knowing anything at all about who the players are and what they want, which is a significant part of diplomacy). The Legion pick, in contrast, is good at diplomacy with some people, not so hot at diplomacy with others, and lousy at administration.

Except that insularity is the fundamental problem that the phoenix have when it comes to a fight. Because the Phoenix will never be a peer contender on their own, they can't adequately expand on their own, and their territory is already pretty much developed to it's limits.
...
Isolationism is the ultimate enemy here, and that's fundamentally the greatest issue the Daimyo option has. 'second best' is still awful when it means the Phoenix don't have any meaningful military presence.

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I would disagree here. I don't think that 'the insularity of the phoenix" is an enormous enemy. It's one of the things that your build pits itself against, but it's not inherently an enemy at all. Also worth noting that my build starts pulling out of it in another way - with the Honor and Prophecy, it speaks to a greater foe that the whole Empire will have to band together to defeat, and that the Phoenix will be needed for, in their more traditional role.

That having been said, I would intend, even with the diamyo character, to start getting the Phoenix a bit less insular. I just don't think that insularity is as much a foe as you make it out to be. The internal focus leads to good things as well as bad.

 

[Sirrocco]

Does anyone realize that this is the crux of my plan? To use the fact the Mantis and Crab are going to actually be able to relate to us and vice versa to get in on the pickings?

Like holy shit, the entire point of going Elemental Legionnaire was that we'd have the respect of the Crab, the Lion, the Mantis, and to a lesser extent the Unicorn. To get them to see us as 'one of them' as opposed to just another overbearing yojimbo obsessed with the theology of the Empire. It's to cross that gap so that we can approach them as something other than 'the weird clan that emphasises the Kami and theology over all else'. If any other Phoenix champion approached them, it would be suspicious because they'd immediately assume 'shugenja shenanigans', but if Hiraku approaches them it's in clear, obvious military terms. 'They're obviously looking to secure more territory, and bolster their armies, so as to ensure the defense and wealth of their clan.' To the rest of the Empire it looks like a natural consequence of getting our teeth knocked out by the Unicorn as opposed to a suspicious power play.

Click to shrink...

Uh... what? Where are you getting this from? The Rokugani are not generally suspicious of Shugenja. Indeed, Shugenja are, in general, seen as paticularly holy (though sometimes inscruitable). "The Shugenja are acting odd again" is cause for shrugs, rather than suspicion. There's no reason to think that it would be seen as a power play regardless of who we are.

Also, with his malus to anything and everything peacetime, and the internal troubles he might sprout, Hiraku might have more of a problem following through. Still, the idea here is to say "hey, we're shugenja, and relatively peaceful, and good at developing lands. Let us focus on developing the lands, while you focus on the warfare side, because we're tired of getting our teeth kicked in, and we'd like some friends." That's not going to sound like a particularly odd proposition regardless.

 

[Karugus]

I would disagree here. I don't think that 'the insularity of the phoenix" is an enormous enemy. It's one of the things that your build pits itself against, but it's not inherently an enemy at all. Also worth noting that my build starts pulling out of it in another way - with the Honor and Prophecy, it speaks to a greater foe that the whole Empire will have to band together to defeat, and that the Phoenix will be needed for, in their more traditional role.

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Fair enough, I guess I see my plan as the Phoenix must prepare militarily for some unknown threat, and I'm still undecided between Paragon and Hero of the People. Part of this is because it's clearly outside of the Phoenix's comfort zone alongside the fact that it's an interesting way to play Phoenix that's more outgoing as well as the big thing of trying to find out more about this unknown foe who looms ahead. Which seems like a very Phoenix thing 'something bad is going to happen, we need to explore and expand to either find it and learn more, or prepare ourselves for the conflict it will bring with it.' It's sort of the traditional Phoenix story from a very different sort of lens.

Uh... what? Where are you getting this from? The Rokugani are not generally suspicious of Shugenja. Indeed, Shugenja are, in general, seen as paticularly holy (though sometimes inscruitable). "The Shugenja are acting odd again" is cause for shrugs, rather than suspicion. There's no reason to think that it would be seen as a power play regardless of who we are.

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I'm phrasing it poorly, part of why I prefer approaching as Hiraku because it's not inscrutable. No one will read more into it other than exactly what it is. Shugenja for all they're respected, are still not people Bushi can easily understand the motives of. We're a known quantity, and that helps a lot in the kind of negotiations we want to be doing.

Less 'suspicious' and more 'inscrutable'. We're a lot more relatable. And I sincerely doubt no one is going to look at the Phoenix, with their general isolated stance and whopping 2 systems and not take note of any sudden and ambitious expansion programs. When they see Hiraku planning such programs, it's clearly a militarily minded champion thinking about military matters- as with any potential alliances. A daimyo making the same sort of plans would probably come across more threatening simply it's a distinctly atypical move for the Phoenix and demonstrates a little more elaborate scheming. This is undoubtedly not the first time a more militarized clan has used us as their whipping boy, for a daimyo to suddenly break with established Phoenix policy is suspicious, for a military commander fresh off a military defeat? One who is inherently not going to follow traditional Phoenix policy in the first place? It's a lot more self explanatory.

Basically, I'm counting on the other clans to see what's just the means as an end into and of itself.

 

[Sirrocco]

Hmm... to look at it another way, let's rank the starter types (best at the top, uncertain/ties share a line):

* Internal diplomacy, stability, getting along with the masters, and so forth
++ Order of Chikai (Good!)
+ Daimyo (pretty good)
- Legions (temperment clash)
-- Courtier (explicitly bad)

* Exernal Diplomacy and maybe trade
++ Courtier (Good!)
+ Order of Chikai / Legions (good with specific groups)
-- Daimyo (explicitly bad)

* Administration and internal development
++ Daimyo (Good!)
? Courter (has probems, but might be able to make it up via trade)
-- Order of Chikai/Legions (both explicitly bad, in different ways)

- War and raw military prowess
++ Legion (Good!)
+ Daimyo (pretty good)
Courtier (meh?)
-- Order of Chikai (explicitly bad)

Basically, daimyo is doing pretty well across the board, other than the diplomacy thing, where she's terrible. The idea here is to go insular for a little while, consolidate, and then start looking for specific, limited diplomatic gains. Accept that this is a slow, rebuilding game - incremental change, rather than dramatic. The daimyo is, honestly, the worst option for dramatic change. The legion has the clash of personalities, and some diplomacy. The courtier has *lots* of diplomacy. The Order of Chikai has some diplomacy in relatively nondisruptive places, but he can also get away with more. A daimyo vote is not looking to change things in dramatic ways.

A daimyo making the same sort of plans would probably come across more threatening simply it's a distinctly atypical move for the Phoenix and demonstrates a little more elaborate scheming. This is undoubtedly not the first time a more militarized clan has used us as their whipping boy, for a daimyo to suddenly break with established Phoenix policy is suspicious, for a military commander fresh off a military defeat? One who is inherently not going to follow traditional Phoenix policy in the first place? It's a lot more self explanatory.

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A daimyo doing it is pretty clearly saying "wow. We just got our teeth kicked in, Our military and economic strength is untenable We need to do something about that." The daimyo are all about protection and development, and this obviously feeds into that. Now, the Daimyo *is* going to have more problems with selling this to other clans. In particular, she's not going to know nearly as much about who to approach, or how to approach them, and the military types aren't going to find her as likable, but that's not because the proposition is in any way suspicious.

It's also the case that the daimyo is going to have an easier time selling these ideas back home. With the daimyo's way of dong things, it's expansion, but it's peaceful expansion, and since this depends on the shugenja support, the bit where you're keeping your shugenja happy is important. Also, the daimyo may not get as nice of an agreement int he first place, but she's going to pull it off better overall once the agreements are signed. She has the skill in administration to know where to make changes, and what changes to make to really leverage that shugenja power for economic improvement. A big part of the point here is to get in on marginal land and then make it better, which is something that she's really very good at, and the Legion just isn't.

 

[zup]

[x] Plan: First, look within

 

[flacyosh]

[Q]Plan: Confused Castle Guard

[Q] Male
[Q] Yushin

[Q] Castle Guard. You served as a humble guard in one of the Phoenix's few major strongholds and, until the Soul of Shiba found you, your greatest ambition was to earn the rank nikutai one day. You're a pretty decent with a katana, and you're told your sensei boasts about your marksmanship to this day. However, you might need a bit of a crash course in rulership. And diplomacy. Generalship too, now that you think about it. You're sure you were chosen for a reason, it's just you'd really like to know that reason.

[Q]Blessing of the Seven Fortunes
-[Q]Ebisu
[Q]Paragon of Bushido

 

[Crasian01]

I suppose a way to think about this is that the Daimyo route will be a route that tries to make decisions that minimize risk while trying to maximize potential gains in politics, economics, and the military. While the magnitude of the gains may necessarily end up being relatively limited, the consequences of any misjudgments or failures in execution will also be limited, and would hopefully allow the Phoenix to respond flexibly to a variety of threats, though not necessarily with the greatest possible response time or response magnitude.

Conversely, the Legionary route will be a route that tries to make decisions that are riskier on account of trying to be more proactive, make more substantive gains, and prepare for more catastrophic scenarios that seem to necessarily be looming. While the consequences of misjudgments or failures in execution may be larger and/or longer lasting, these risks are worth it in comparison to the aforementioned benefits, which would allow for a faster and more powerful response to a threat.

@Karugus
Would it be fair to say that you would characterize this potential "bad thing" as a military threat? In other words: a threat that must be responded to with the Legions, and which economic or political pressures will have minimal or no effect.

@Sirrocco
Would you say that the above is a fair characterization of the Daimyo route?

 

[Karugus]

@Karugus
Would it be fair to say that you would characterize this potential "bad thing" as a military threat? In other words: a threat that must be responded to with the Legions, and which economic or political pressures will have minimal or no effect.

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Well, for the Legionnaire? Absolutely. But I also feel the nature of the threat is dependant on what Champion we pick. The Soul determines who the best Champion for the clan given the trails ahead, and if it picks say a Courtier instead of a military oriented Bushi, one would imagine the threats the Clan faces is vastly different.

Part of me going the Legionnaire route is because I want a threat the Phoenix are generally unsuited to handle, and how they respond to such. As opposed to just having an arc where we clean up after the messes of the Isawa. I have to say I do agree with most of your analysis. I think my plan is a bit riskier, but with potentially greater dividends.

 

[Crasian01]

Well, for the Legionnaire? Absolutely. But I also feel the nature of the threat is dependant on what Champion we pick. The Soul determines who the best Champion for the clan given the trails ahead, and if it picks say a Courtier instead of a military oriented Bushy, one would imagine the threats the Clan faces is vastly different.

Part of me going the Legionnaire route is because I want a threat the Phoenix are generally suited to handle, and how they respond to such. As opposed to just having an arc where we clean up after the messes of the Isawa. I have to say I do agree with most of your analysis. I think my plan is a bit riskier, but with potentially greater dividends.

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I think ultimately, assuming that @Sirrocco agrees with my analysis of the Daimyo route, I value flexibility in response over the more proactive, and at least somewhat militarily focused, Legionnaire route. I would definitely say that both are completely reasonable, and probably advocate that ultimately a balanced approach that is able to somewhat blend the two is probably best. I might take a second look at the voting options and see if I can create a compromise, but my suspicion is that such a compromise will end up having a jack-of-all-trades character with insufficient emphasis in any one area.

From a more meta point of view, my background is in engineering and I would personally be very interested in playing a science+tech focused quest with a nontrivial emphasis on business and economics. My perception is that the Legionnaire route would ultimately have a more martial focus and emphasis on territory capture, unit management, etc., which is not to my taste. Another way to put it is that I prefer to play Tall in Civ5 over playing wide, and am applying that preference to this quest.

 

[Sirrocco]

@Sirrocco
Would you say that the above is a fair characterization of the Daimyo route?

Click to shrink...

Somewhat. I would say also, though, that it's the more traditional route. The Daimyo vote as I have it is also preparing for a major external threat - it just intends to do that as Phoenix, and to respond in the traditional phoenix way, along with the rest of Rokugan, when things start to happen. The Daimyo (particularly with Honor and Prophet) is positioned to maintain and improve in a conservative way, while also riding herd on the Isawa so that they can explore and investigate whatever they want to explore and investigate without going too far... so that once the threat does show up, the Phoenix will be doing fairly well on research while also not having been terribly corrupted. What they won't have is an enormous amount of temporal power.

I also prefer Tall to Wide.

 

[Karugus]

I think ultimately, assuming that @Sirrocco agrees with my analysis of the Daimyo route, I value flexibility in response over the more proactive, and at least somewhat militarily focused, Legionnaire route. I would definitely say that both are completely reasonable, and probably advocate that ultimately a balanced approach that is able to somewhat blend the two is probably best. I might take a second look at the voting options and see if I can create a compromise, but my suspicion is that such a compromise will end up having a jack-of-all-trades character with insufficient emphasis in any one area.

From a more meta point of view, my background is in engineering and I would personally be very interested in playing a science+tech focused quest with a nontrivial emphasis on business and economics. My perception is that the Legionnaire route would ultimately have a more martial focus and emphasis on territory capture, unit management, etc., which is not to my taste. Another way to put it is that I prefer to play Tall in Civ5 over playing wide, and am applying that preference to this quest.

Click to shrink...

That's perfectly reasonable, and I don't mind your reasoning. A large part of this for me is that I'm treating this as much of a narrative quest as a civ quest. I want an interesting unique character with conflicts and flaws all his own as much as I want a well optimized start.

The strength of my plan is that it's a high risk high reward that's fairly unique and promises a different narrative than we'd otherwise see.

I don't see it entirely as a military game or a capture game. More than anything I do see it as casting the net wide as opposed to tall. If I could draw any conventional comparison, I'd describe it as a rush build. It has a lot of strength going for it right out of the gate and the hope is we can secure quite a bit of territory rapidly enough that we can develop it and try and have our cake and eat it too when it comes to Tall vs. Wide and how developed our provinces are.

As Sirocco has discussed, my plan is definitely the less traditional of the two and that's a major part of it for better or for worse. It's all about the Phoenix trying to face and prepare for a threat in a manner Phoenix just usually don't. That has it's own benefits and opportunities but it also inarguably carries it's own disadvantages and issues. I won't pretend otherwise, and for me that contention between our character and the traditional Phoenix is something to be lauded because it offers a chance to both develop our character and the clan with how we handle the issue. I don't plan on bullying over the traditionalists, but I definitely want to break the mold as it were and find a middle ground for the Phoenix between the traditional Isawa and our militarized Hikaru.

 

[Crasian01]

For the sake of considering the problem, I've come up with something resembling a third option:

[] Plan: The Middle way

[] Courtier
-- [] Female
[] Hero of the People
[] Paragon of Bushido

I haven't actually made this a vote because I don't know yet if it actually works, but the theory here is this:

As a courtier, the Champion will be uniquely positioned to take advantage of foreign relations and leverage external resources that would otherwise be unattainable under other routes. Additionally, in the context of an existential threat that effects all of Rokugan, the Courtier route would allow much greater coordination between all clans and maximize both the ways other clans can help the Phoenix, as well as the ways the Phoenix can provide for the collective.

By choosing the traits "Hero of the People" and "Paragon of Bushido", it is intended that domestic matters can be at least somewhat mitigated.

First, "Hero of the People" would contribute towards improving domestic stability and general trust in the higher classes. This trait would potentially allow for a certain level of "stardom" and increase dialogue amongst the lower classes, potentially making it possible to identify domestic problems early before they become too complex to resolve with the Champion's limitations, as well as identify useful individuals to pull into the Champion's retinue as an advisor and/or confidant.

Second, "Paragon of Bushido" would contribute to improving relations with the Elemental Masters. This trait would potentially influence the Elemental Masters to at least have heard good things about the Champion and be willing to speak with them on more positive terms. This potentially would lead to the Elemental Masters dispensing more useful advice or providing references to certain talented individuals which they are familiar with.

The limitations of this route are that it clearly does not directly do anything domestically. It would be extremely important to be able to delegate effectively to other members of the court and form a network of advisors and mentors that can provide excellent advice. It would also mean that if domestic matters become problematic, it would be difficult for the Champion to directly affect matters, since the Champion lacks the influence to do anything. The exception would be if the Champion acted as mediator between two conflicting parties in a domestic conflict/dispute.

It occurs to me that this sounds remarkably similar to a POTUS elected on a foreign policy platform. I also have no idea how accurate that analysis is.

 

[Sirrocco]

@Karugus: A concern I would bring, though, WRT your "have and also eat cake" idea... when the threat comes, if the Phoenix are trying to turn themselves into warriors, who's going to play the part of the Phoenix? The Phoenix do have a traditional role to play when facing Great External Threats, and "throw a few more legions in" isn't really it.

Really, I suspect that the Legion build, narratively, isn't going to see as much of an external threat. Yo're already dealing with a major plotline about strife inside the Clan, and another plotline or two about proving yourself militarily to the other Clans, and a third plotline (whether you like it or not) on how to support your legions and armies when you don't know much about the arts of peace and are also going heavily expansionist. That seems like a fair amount of conflict already.

By contrast, the Daimyo build is much more about seeing the first hints of the great threat to come, and trying to make enough connections to the other clans that we can be believed when we start to explain how Big Bad Things are coming, while we do what we can to investigate the coming darkness without losing ourselves. It involves at least a few major battles, but those battles are much more likely to be defending important portions of the Phoenix lands so that the Shugenja can finish/maintain important rituals and so forth.

 

[Seventeen]

@Sirrocco, it's daimyo. Also heimin, since I saw you say heimen earlier.

Yes I'm needlessly pedantic.

 

[Random Member]

[x] Plan: First, look within

@Sirrocco Your plan doesn't have a name for our MC though.

 

[Karugus]

@Karugus: A concern I would bring, though, WRT your "have and also eat cake" idea... when the threat comes, if the Phoenix are trying to turn themselves into warriors, who's going to play the part of the Phoenix? The Phoenix do have a traditional role to play when facing Great External Threats, and "throw a few more legions in" isn't really it.

Really, I suspect that the Legion build, narratively, isn't going to see as much of an external threat. Yo're already dealing with a major plotline about strife inside the Clan, and another plotline or two about proving yourself militarily to the other Clans, and a third plotline (whether you like it or not) on how to support your legions and armies when you don't know much about the arts of peace and are also going heavily expansionist. That seems like a fair amount of conflict already. Invoke the tragedy of a war leader preparing for a war in order to protect his people while at the same time his clan is losing confidence in him for 'losing the peace' so to speak.

By contrast, the Diamyo build is much more about seeing the first hints of the great threat to come, and trying to make enough connections to the other clans that we can be believed when we start to explain how Big Bad Things are coming, while we do what we can to investigate the coming darkness without losing ourselves. It involves at least a few major battles, but those battles are much more likely to be defending important portions of the Phoenix lands so that the Shugenja can finish/maintain important rituals and so forth.

Click to shrink...

See I see it a lot differently- the entire reason the Legion build is pushing for expansion is because he- personally, is afraid. Why did he get selected? Of all the options this is the most incongruous pick so I feel it as less a 'I'll prove the worth of the Phoenix to the other clans by expanding militarily' and more 'we need to prepare ourselves and expand the military in order to defend against whatever threat is looming ahead'. It's not built on the expectation that we'll solve the problem by throwing legions at it, but that we're going to need more legions in order to buy more time for the Shugenja. It's less 'we're a military focused clan now' and more 'we need a better military to leverage and defend our strength- the Shugenja'.

I could easily tie these into the narrative you presented- everyone assumes the Champion is using some external threat to justify his militarization while at the same time the research into his threat is stymied by the contention between him and the elemental council. Corrupted on both sides are inflaming a conflict that both parties earnestly want to resolve.

Maybe replace hero of the people or/and blessing of Bishamon with Prophet and Paragon?

 

[Night]

It also has to be pointed out that when the Phoenix actually go to war whole-heartedly, they can be terrifyingly powerful. An angry Elemental Master and his associated Elemental Legion are the deadliest units of their size in the Empire. But they are rarely applied. They're too valuable to risk unless the fate of the Clan or the Empire is at stake, and it's simply not a done thing. If the Phoenix were apt to apply their full magical skills to every contest they'd make a lot more enemies and be significantly less tolerated. Most Clans view us as relatively harmless, not potentially able to burn a city to ash inside an hour. For the most part that's to our advantage, and will remain to our advantage; we don't really want to provoke people by existing.

 

[Crasian01]

@Karugus
If you do a replacement, I would replace "Blessing of Bishamon". I do think that "Hero of the People" can be leveraged usefully for domestic problems, and finding useful, talented individuals among the lower classes to add to our retinue would be extremely helpful.

 

[Sickul]

[X] Plan Diplomancy and Weath

[X] Male
[X] Shiba Renya

[X] The Courtier. Although you were initially sent to court as a bodyguard for one of your Clan's true diplomats, you managed to distinguish yourself and were rewarded with independent assignments of increasing complexity. You have met just about every major daimyo and courtier in the Empire at one time or another, and many of them have a positive impression of you as a result. That said, your understanding of domestic issues might be somewhat lacking...

[X] Blessing of the Seven Fortunes. Something about you has drawn the attention and subsequent approval of one of the mightiest of all the fortunes, and they have showered you with their blessings.
- [X] Daikoku

[x] Paragon of Bushido

 

[Sirrocco]

[x] Plan: First, look within

@Sirrocco Your plan doesn't have a name for our MC though.

Click to shrink...

Good point. Any suggestions?

 

[Woahdan]

[X] Plan: From the Ashes, FieryVengeance.

 

[Crasian01]

Good point. Any suggestions?

Click to shrink...

I propose some sort of reference to Nanoha, because peace through giant laser cannons is best peace.

 

[lavanderjasmine]

[x] Plan: First, look within

 

[primemountain]

What is the actual job of a Clan Champion? The clan daimyo were the most powerful in the Empire, second only to the Emperor and Shogun, in both political and military might. The Phoenix are not a military powerhouse. So, it is our job to make sure we at least can not be stepped on in the political arena.

While administration is a mayor part of the role, the Phoenix only have two systems, and both of those should have a damiyo in charge of them(Even if one of those is us).

What this means is that, unlike with the bigger clans, there is little teritory to administrate and so little need for a very skilled administrator. Our problems are mostly outside, and diplomatic. (Apart from inflitrators, but not much we can do about that.)

[x] Plan: Path of Tao
[x] Female
[x] Kazuki, (kazu) meaning "one" or (kazu) meaning "harmony, peace" combined with (ki) meaning "brightness" or (ki) meaning "hope"
[x] The Courtier
[x] Blessing of the Seven Fortunes
-[x]Benten's Blessing
[x] Paragon of Bushido
-[x]Compassion

This makes us a very effective courtier whenever we are arguing for something that will benefit those below us in the celestial order, which is going to be a lot of the time, as every phoenix apart from the Elemental Masters is below us in the Celestial Order, and they might count too.

I'd rather trust our generals and damiyo to be good at it, then trust Phoenix Courtiers to win at diplomacy. I think we need better diplo options more then we need a good general or administrator.