Empire of the Emerald Stars (Legend of the Five Rings)
- Thread starter Maugan Ra
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
Crasian01
Insane Incubator
@Nix's Warden
@Karugus
My principle worry here is that merely having positive and profitable traits does not mean that anybody will be buying. A nontrivial part of running an economy is being able to do the wheeling and dealing to market these positive traits. This is a very nontrivial task, and so having a leader with skills that are biased in that direction would be extremely useful. While it is true that warfare is also very nontrivial, economics and business run so much off of weird conventions and unspoken cues that it's very difficult for us to pick up on them and react appropriately. Conversely, warfare is at least somewhat easier to understand through writing.
@Karugus
My principle worry here is that merely having positive and profitable traits does not mean that anybody will be buying. A nontrivial part of running an economy is being able to do the wheeling and dealing to market these positive traits. This is a very nontrivial task, and so having a leader with skills that are biased in that direction would be extremely useful. While it is true that warfare is also very nontrivial, economics and business run so much off of weird conventions and unspoken cues that it's very difficult for us to pick up on them and react appropriately. Conversely, warfare is at least somewhat easier to understand through writing.
- Location
- London, England
OK, the basic mechanics have now been tweaked and updated, with thanks to @Sirrocco for his ideas and suggestions.
The main changes are the addition of the 'Monk' role, which generally holds everything that doesn't easily fit into one of the others, some changes made to hopefully mitigate the disadvantages of expanding to take in new provinces, and actual mechanics for how to recruit units and improve provinces as well as the incentives for doing so.
With regards to the ongoing discussion, while building a powerful military force is certainly a viable long-term plan, I feel it is worth noting that if the Phoenix and the Unicorn were to go head to head, holding nothing back and pulling out all the stops to win? The Unicorn would crush you.
Fortunately, you're not currently locked in a total war scenario. The Unicorn are holding your Clan responsible for the loss of their exploration fleet's flagship due to the aforementioned inferior quality parts, but there's a decent argument to be made that honour has been satisfied with the death of your Champion in battle.
The main changes are the addition of the 'Monk' role, which generally holds everything that doesn't easily fit into one of the others, some changes made to hopefully mitigate the disadvantages of expanding to take in new provinces, and actual mechanics for how to recruit units and improve provinces as well as the incentives for doing so.
With regards to the ongoing discussion, while building a powerful military force is certainly a viable long-term plan, I feel it is worth noting that if the Phoenix and the Unicorn were to go head to head, holding nothing back and pulling out all the stops to win? The Unicorn would crush you.
Fortunately, you're not currently locked in a total war scenario. The Unicorn are holding your Clan responsible for the loss of their exploration fleet's flagship due to the aforementioned inferior quality parts, but there's a decent argument to be made that honour has been satisfied with the death of your Champion in battle.
- Location
- his hidden lair
At the same time it's relatively easy to market those skills to similar people to you and genuinely respect you. The Matsu don't give a damn that you can sing pretty tales of how cool your magic is, but if a respected warrior known for the finest quality of equipment makes arrangements so that the Lion- greatest of all warriors of course, get an opportunity to use the greatest of equipment? They'd be thrilled if we phrase it right.
Being the military option doesn't mean we're shit at diplomacy, it means who we can have diplomacy is a little more limited, but that they're going to be far more receptive than they otherwise would. It's not isolationism, or antagonism, it's merely a different approach.
I'm not advocating a total war against the Unicorn, I'm advocating fighting such a way we can lose with grace. Now that they've killed our champion the conflict is going to simmer down for sure but it's probably not going to end overnight, how we conduct ourselves in the closing days of the war will say a lot about our administration and the honor we've won or lost in this fight. There's no shame in the Phoenix losing to the Unicorn, the people who can avoid getting steamrolled in aq punchup with lions- but if we play our cards right there's still honor and glory to be had in defeat.
Just because I'm advocating a military focus doesn't mean I'm advocating full frontal confrontation, there's a certain subtlety and nuance to even warfare we can take advantage of with the right actions.
- Location
- Lithuania
[X] Plan: From the Ashes, Fiery Vengeance.
[X] Male
[X] Hiraku
[X] The Elemental Legions. The Phoenix do not often go to war, but when the need is great they hold at their disposal some of the mightiest Legions in all the Empire. You commanded one of these Legions, and as such you have an impeccable understanding of military tactics and the respect of many of the Empire's more martial Clans. The craft of peace, however, is not one that is overly familiar to you...
[X] Hero of the People. You are beloved by the lower classes, and find all of your dealings with them to be much easier and more productive. As a Champion you might only rarely find this coming into effect, but the worth of even the humblest soul should never be discarded outright.
[X] Blessing of the Seven Fortunes. Something about you has drawn the attention and subsequent approval of one of the mightiest of all the fortunes, and they have showered you with their blessings.
- [X] Bishamon
[X] Male
[X] Hiraku
[X] The Elemental Legions. The Phoenix do not often go to war, but when the need is great they hold at their disposal some of the mightiest Legions in all the Empire. You commanded one of these Legions, and as such you have an impeccable understanding of military tactics and the respect of many of the Empire's more martial Clans. The craft of peace, however, is not one that is overly familiar to you...
[X] Hero of the People. You are beloved by the lower classes, and find all of your dealings with them to be much easier and more productive. As a Champion you might only rarely find this coming into effect, but the worth of even the humblest soul should never be discarded outright.
[X] Blessing of the Seven Fortunes. Something about you has drawn the attention and subsequent approval of one of the mightiest of all the fortunes, and they have showered you with their blessings.
- [X] Bishamon
Crasian01
Insane Incubator
The key, however, is still to phrase it right. Optimum phrasing is extremely difficult, complex, and dependent on all sorts of subtle contextual things. Applying more soldiers/fleets to a situation is comparatively straightforward, if rife with difficult cost-benefit questions. At the end of the day, phrasing is still incredibly subjective, whereas a military situation can be evaluated in a more objective fashion.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
You are advocating taking provinces from other clans by force, and having that be the primary goal that we build towards. We're in a terrible position for that.
You mostly seem to be advocating for "As much war as we can cram in, by any means we can get it", with every other field of human endeavor subordinated to that wartime focus. Your response to "no, you can't manage that much war" appears to be "Well, then how about only a bit less war than that?"
On the other hand, you appear to have the overwhelming vote majority, so... enjoy your all-war-all-the-time phoenix, I guess?
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Actually, I think your vote is pretty close?
Actually, 'From within' is currently winning.
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Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
As I find neither choice particularly interesting at the moment...
[x] Female
[x] The Order of Chikai
[x] Paragon of Bushido
[x] Hero of the People
We were male for the last Maugan quest. Variety is interesting. As for the rest, the Elemental Masters are the greatest resource the Clan has in terms of people. Just because we have the Soul of Shiba does not mean they will listen to us, nor will it be easy to exert influence over them. With this, and the Paragon of Bushido, we might be able to do so best. Hero of the People will act to help cement our powerbase in a different way.
This is the best position with which to change the course of the Clan and make peace, to make internal reforms, and to eventually (or immediately; no sense waiting on diplomacy and that's what we have minions for) turn outward in a search for allies and partners who can help us reach new resources and new worlds. It has benefits in the short term, but it also covers the long game.
[x] Female
[x] The Order of Chikai
[x] Paragon of Bushido
[x] Hero of the People
We were male for the last Maugan quest. Variety is interesting. As for the rest, the Elemental Masters are the greatest resource the Clan has in terms of people. Just because we have the Soul of Shiba does not mean they will listen to us, nor will it be easy to exert influence over them. With this, and the Paragon of Bushido, we might be able to do so best. Hero of the People will act to help cement our powerbase in a different way.
This is the best position with which to change the course of the Clan and make peace, to make internal reforms, and to eventually (or immediately; no sense waiting on diplomacy and that's what we have minions for) turn outward in a search for allies and partners who can help us reach new resources and new worlds. It has benefits in the short term, but it also covers the long game.
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Sirrocco
Pedantic
Oh! Thank you. I'd completely misread that. I suppose I should go back and actually count.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
My hand count had it very close. 10 to 11.
A Nation's Virtue
南國山河南帝居
Honestly, if we want to expand the best way to do so is by settling and conquering new worlds quietly or while maintaining an alliance with the Lion/Mantis/Crab to protect our home systems.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
[x] Plan: First, look within
I'd prefer Hero of the People, but other than that I think this is good.
@Maugan Ra
So, in this science fantasy setting, what's the standard equipment like for Ashigaru and Bushi?
I'd prefer Hero of the People, but other than that I think this is good.
@Maugan Ra
So, in this science fantasy setting, what's the standard equipment like for Ashigaru and Bushi?
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Crasian01
Insane Incubator
Well, a strong military presence is still absolutely necessary. It should be made clear that just because the Sirocco's vote doesn't explicitly emphasize martial considerations does not mean that warfare and conflict is being ignored entirely. Maintaining a strong position on the political stage requires the guarantee that if pushed too far, a violent and destructive response will be given. We should invest in military technologies that cause large amounts of destruction relative to the number of soldiers required to make them a feasible option in the field.
However, acquiring and developing such technology requires vast human and material resources, resources that cannot be obtained without significant emphasis on trade and scientific research. Economic and scientific activities are the absolute foundation to intersystem hegemony, and must be the starting point for all other considerations.
However, acquiring and developing such technology requires vast human and material resources, resources that cannot be obtained without significant emphasis on trade and scientific research. Economic and scientific activities are the absolute foundation to intersystem hegemony, and must be the starting point for all other considerations.
- Location
- USA
[x] Plan: First, look within
A Nation's Virtue
南國山河南帝居
I really don't think people realize that the Phoenix's magical prowess does not equate political, financial, or military power. This isn't helped by them being pacifists for over 3000 years.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
wrt what @Crasian is saying... Stated strengths and weaknesses of the types:
Order of Chikai: (diplomacy, internal secondary)
+ insight into how the phoenix is run
+ dealings with the Elemental Masters
+ dealings with those who have dealt with the Elemental Masters
- administration
- leading troops
Diamyo: (Internal, administration and war)
+ administration
+ defense
+ stability (maybe)
- awareness of the broader empire (dilomacy? intrigue?)
Legions: (war, external secondary)
+ battle, of all kinds
+ diplomacy with warlike clans
- administration, and other concerns of peace
Courtier: (external, diplomacy)
+ awareness of the broader empire
+ diplomacy
- understanding of how the phoenix work
So, given that, diamyo is actually the second-best pick as far as military is concerned. Its real drawback is that it makes us pretty insular... but everything has drawbacks.
It can be leveraged for these things to a degree. Much of the political, financial, and military power that we *do* have is due to our magical prowess... but you're right that we're generally lightweights in the above.
On that note, one of the good ways to make peacetime gains in province strength... ally with some nice, large, warlike clan. They're going to pick up marginal planets along the way. We'll throw in shugenja support to make/keep those planets livable via terraforming, they throw in the military support to keep them from being taken by the other clans, and we both profit. Now, we're not going to be ready to do this straight off, but it's certainly a workable plan.
Order of Chikai: (diplomacy, internal secondary)
+ insight into how the phoenix is run
+ dealings with the Elemental Masters
+ dealings with those who have dealt with the Elemental Masters
- administration
- leading troops
Diamyo: (Internal, administration and war)
+ administration
+ defense
+ stability (maybe)
- awareness of the broader empire (dilomacy? intrigue?)
Legions: (war, external secondary)
+ battle, of all kinds
+ diplomacy with warlike clans
- administration, and other concerns of peace
Courtier: (external, diplomacy)
+ awareness of the broader empire
+ diplomacy
- understanding of how the phoenix work
So, given that, diamyo is actually the second-best pick as far as military is concerned. Its real drawback is that it makes us pretty insular... but everything has drawbacks.
It can be leveraged for these things to a degree. Much of the political, financial, and military power that we *do* have is due to our magical prowess... but you're right that we're generally lightweights in the above.
On that note, one of the good ways to make peacetime gains in province strength... ally with some nice, large, warlike clan. They're going to pick up marginal planets along the way. We'll throw in shugenja support to make/keep those planets livable via terraforming, they throw in the military support to keep them from being taken by the other clans, and we both profit. Now, we're not going to be ready to do this straight off, but it's certainly a workable plan.
- Location
- his hidden lair
What? I've never planned on outright conquering provinces from other Clans, I've been planning to leverage our martial focus to get ties to say the Mantis, and the Crab so that we can piggyback on their expansionism. Space is massive, and there exists more territory to be claimed from beyond the borders of Rokugan, hell exploration is something we're only second to the Unicorn in apparently.
So rather than claiming I'm embracing jingoism for the sake of jingoism consider that I'm not advocating we play our martial bent straightforwardly, I'm saying we use it as leverage so that we can actually get some kind of mutually beneficial agreement set up for us. We flat out can't afford to wage a war by ourselves, but the whole point of this is so that we don't need to fight a war just by ourselves.
Oh I agree it's not straightforward, what I'm saying is there's definitive diplomatic perks from my plan, more so than just being a Daimyo in fact.
Crasian01
Insane Incubator
Nothing directly implies political, financial, or military strength. That's a fundamental fact of all things. What matters is how traits and abilities are converted into useful work that supports the creation and accruement of political, financial, or military strength.
Well, ultimately my point is that those perks are not sufficiently large to outweigh the costs of going a more martially focused route. Going Daimyo provides a better balance and allows us to exploit those perks more substantially.
Well, ultimately my point is that those perks are not sufficiently large to outweigh the costs of going a more martially focused route. Going Daimyo provides a better balance and allows us to exploit those perks more substantially.
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- Location
- his hidden lair
Except that insularity is the fundamental problem that the phoenix have when it comes to a fight. Because the Phoenix will never be a peer contender on their own, they can't adequately expand on their own, and their territory is already pretty much developed to it's limits.
The point of my build isn't so that we're the best fighter the Pheonix have eveer had, it's so that we can leverage all that, to make meaningful connections with other clans. Isolationism is the ultimate enemy here, and that's fundamentally the greatest issue the Daimyo option has. 'second best' is still awful when it means the Phoenix don't have any meaningful military presence.
Who said anything about overly aggressive? We're not actually trying to piss anyone off here, with any luck our focus will be with a few other clans that we're cooperating with and the rest of the Empire seeing the Phoenix 'holding themselves apart' or just chalking it off as a particularly warlike champion.
People are kinda strawmanning my intentions here and it's getting a little infuriating. I'm not saying we play as the Lion with more Magic- because we can't. I'm saying we get more involved in the expansion of Rokugan and make favorable partnerships in that regard.
The Military is ultimately just a tool to get a little more integrated back into the rest of the Empire so that we can make the deals we need to expand. It's a means, not an end in and of itself like you all seem to be insisting.
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Crasian01
Insane Incubator
Well, okay, that's actually bad phrasing on my part so I apologize. I use the word "aggressively" weirdly, and it would have been better to use the phrase: "a more martially focused route".
note: edited previous post for clarity
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- Location
- London, England
In terms of leverage for acquiring other territories, it's worth repeating that by Imperial Decree, no one Clan may control an entire planet. A lot of the Minor Clans have managed to expand off the home world by being a sufficiently inoffensive choice of neighbors for one or more Great Clans, and agreements of based around such sharing of land are one of the primary cornerstones of joint military operations or alliances in recent years.
That would be the recommended method for leveraging your support into additional territory, if you wanted to go that route.
It's also worth remembering that any and all plans you come up with will need to be ratified by the Elemental Masters, who will probably give you instructions and goals of their own to pursue.
That would be the recommended method for leveraging your support into additional territory, if you wanted to go that route.
It's also worth remembering that any and all plans you come up with will need to be ratified by the Elemental Masters, who will probably give you instructions and goals of their own to pursue.