Elysian Odyssey (EU4 Quest - Byzantium in the New World)

I can't see what else controlling the treasury really does otherwise. Maybe reduced expenses somewhere?
All sorts of things. Off the top of my head, in addition to straight up income gains (or reduced expenses, which work out to being basically the same) it could open up an event chain like the Grand Cothon did for trading ships that has narrative effects but not necessarily show up in the mechanics or it could be that taking firmer reign over the Treasury will open up statistics like how much of our population is barbaroi and allow for more subtle and more effective efforts to track/manage integration.

Regardless, the point is that making an argument that "it'll give at least 4 Silver" just doesn't work. We can't say that it'll be worth a certain amount of money or not because literally the only thing we know about it is the name, and relying on it producing a given amount is just asking to get bitten on the ass.

ya but our Allegia would have been broken and defeated if not for our allies saving them. We won't have that here. To be honest Ido not consider a defeat likely. I only consider it possible but even a costly victory would be bad for us.
We also won't have to deal with 50 thousand natives to fight, so the lack of native allies is completely irrelevant. There is no scenario in which we might plausibly come up against a force that has the same amount of numbers we do.

Trying to bring up whether or not our army would break if we were outnumbered twice over simply doesn't matter. At all.


  1. even another 1,000 professional troops than your plan has as I stated would basically remove the chance of defeat from the war. Not completely but close enough that it won't happen. So I don't consider your buildup reasonable but rather being greedy and refusing to temporarily weaken the economy in exchange for a less damaging war.
  2. you didn't take the new settlement we would be gaining into account in my calculation even with your lower number of lands gained as you stated just 1 settlement worth 8 silver it would bring us well over 30 silver in net income. Plus we would have the troops to defend the new lands from rebellion or attack from others.
  3. With more professional troops we will not only be able to hold the lands we do take more easily but we will be able to take more lands period. With my plan we could see ourselves seizing 2-3 settlements more than your plan would see us taking.
  4. Finally you fail to take into consideration that our supply of militia is not unlimited. What happens if another nation chooses to attack us in the next 10 years after we lose say 5k troops in total like you mentioned. WE CAN'T RECRUIT MORE TROOPS! At least not without incurring eco penalties. What we have already recruited+ are recruiting this turn is our limit until our population grows a bunch more. if we lose a large chunk of this military we are MUCH more vulnerable to attack for a generation or 3.
1. There are 2 competing plans. One of them cuts 60% of our income and triples the amount of professional troops the Crown contributes to the armed forces while the other one cuts 20% of our income to increase the amount of professional troops by a third. Arguing that the less extreme plan is unreasonable because it doesn't do enough falls flat because the only alternative that has been presented is a plan that does way too much.

2. No, I didn't take any possible earnings into account - for the simple reason that you weren't including it in your projections and I stuck to comparing apples with apples. Which is also why including stuff like assumptions about how much the Treasury would earn is a bad idea. Including stuff that isn't hard math into your projections moves them from being projections into wishful thinking.

Regardless, the point remains that wildly overspending on our military will cost more in lost income then it'll gain in ephemeral benefits - this remains the same whether you take into account the effect of conquered territories on overall income or not. How much money can be gained from conquering somebody relies more on how much money they have than how much force is applied taking it from them.

3. Having more full-time troops is almost completely unrelated to how many settlements we can seize. Having 4k troops out of 22k troops be slightly more or slightly less effective matters a lot less than having 22k troops compared to 10-15k, the tactical/strategic skill of each side, and chance. Chance and tactical/strategic skill are out of our hands (which makes them identical as far as planning is concerned), as are the final troop numbers the Tuscarora will have. The total amount of troops remains the same in both plans, which means that all 3 major factors are fixed - fiddling with how effective a sixth of the army will be is by definition a marginal difference in comparison.

Therefore, it's better to attack a place and see how much it gains us before spending on Allagia until we have enough to pacify it than to hire Allagia for pacifying a place before we take it. It is the simple difference between earning money and then spending it versus spending money and then trying to earn it. One of them leads to success, while the other leads to financial hot water.

4. No, that's not how it works. We don't have a limit on how many bodies we can recruit, we have a limit on how much of our population can be mobilized without damaging the economy. The cap on militia is directly proportional to our population level. If we go into battle and lose 5k militia, we can continue recruiting until we hit the cap - only the cap would be slightly less to account for having 5k less total population having done some damage to our overall economy.

Numerically, if we have 200k people and can support 10k troops, then going into battle and losing 5k troops means we'd now have 195k people and could support 9.75k troops, which means that even though no more troops could be recruited before the war after the war 4.75k troops could be recruited.

Losing 3% of our population isn't going to cripple our military for a generation.
 
All sorts of things. Off the top of my head, in addition to straight up income gains (or reduced expenses, which work out to being basically the same) it could open up an event chain like the Grand Cothon did for trading ships that has narrative effects but not necessarily show up in the mechanics or it could be that taking firmer reign over the Treasury will open up statistics like how much of our population is barbaroi and allow for more subtle and more effective efforts to track/manage integration.

Regardless, the point is that making an argument that "it'll give at least 4 Silver" just doesn't work. We can't say that it'll be worth a certain amount of money or not because literally the only thing we know about it is the name, and relying on it producing a given amount is just asking to get bitten on the ass.
I said I am betting on it giving at least 4 silver not that it will dude.

We also won't have to deal with 50 thousand natives to fight, so the lack of native allies is completely irrelevant. There is no scenario in which we might plausibly come up against a force that has the same amount of numbers we do.

Trying to bring up whether or not our army would break if we were outnumbered twice over simply doesn't matter. At all.
it isn't irrelevant though as that means we have to fight to the finish with our own military without aid from another ally. Meaning all the losses are our own to bear. Yes our Allegia held against those and only lost 1/3 but who knows how long they were actually fighting for before aid came? It could be that the fighting only went on for an hour or so and our allies came in a bit before they would have broken and that without the allies coming in we would have been wiped out without inflicting much dmg to our enemy.

All I am saying is relying on the statistics of losses for that battle to stay true in one without backup of unknown numbers is insane. yes we won't be facing insane numbers, but for all we know the losses we took before our allied forces came in were not given enough time to become significant and most of the losses came in after the fight began in earnest. Where our allies took the brunt of the losses for us too. That is my worry. Its that even our Allegia are not enough to beat the natives in a fight purely on their ideal battlefield. And no before you mention it the river was not ideal for them it was just as good as they could get within our lands. They prefer Asymmetrical combat based on what we have seen so far and history so ya not the best place for them.

1. There are 2 competing plans. One of them cuts 60% of our income and triples the amount of professional troops the Crown contributes to the armed forces while the other one cuts 20% of our income to increase the amount of professional troops by a third. Arguing that the less extreme plan is unreasonable because it doesn't do enough falls flat because the only alternative that has been presented is a plan that does way too much.
1: perhaps both are unreasonable but that does not make yours any less unreasonable. At least mine has the excuse of caution in that we are about to go to war. What is your excuse? pure desire to maximize the least important resource we have? I mean seriously you said it yourself silver gives less than admin points and diplo points. Why are you so against taking a short dip away from having tons of it?

2. No, I didn't take any possible earnings into account - for the simple reason that you weren't including it in your projections and I stuck to comparing apples with apples. Which is also why including stuff like assumptions about how much the Treasury would earn is a bad idea. Including stuff that isn't hard math into your projections moves them from being projections into wishful thinking.

Regardless, the point remains that wildly overspending on our military will cost more in lost income then it'll gain in ephemeral benefits - this remains the same whether you take into account the effect of conquered territories on overall income or not. How much money can be gained from conquering somebody relies more on how much money they have than how much force is applied taking it from them.
2: no it also relies on how much territory we can claim with our military power. And how much we can seriously defend. In that matter having a larger military matters a lot.

3. Having more full-time troops is almost completely unrelated to how many settlements we can seize. Having 4k troops out of 22k troops be slightly more or slightly less effective matters a lot less than having 22k troops compared to 10-15k, the tactical/strategic skill of each side, and chance. Chance and tactical/strategic skill are out of our hands (which makes them identical as far as planning is concerned), as are the final troop numbers the Tuscarora will have. The total amount of troops remains the same in both plans, which means that all 3 major factors are fixed - fiddling with how effective a sixth of the army will be is by definition a marginal difference in comparison.

Therefore, it's better to attack a place and see how much it gains us before spending on Allagia until we have enough to pacify it than to hire Allagia for pacifying a place before we take it. It is the simple difference between earning money and then spending it versus spending money and then trying to earn it. One of them leads to success, while the other leads to financial hot water.
3: Actually it relates a lot since we won't be able to seize more than what we can defend. We need Allagia to DEFEND the lands we take remember? Militia can't defend enemy lands because they have to be called up to fight only Allagia can be used to do so. I would also argue that our leaders would be more comfortable with taking more if they had more troops to defend it rather than imaginary ideas about training more without any guarantees.

4. No, that's not how it works. We don't have a limit on how many bodies we can recruit, we have a limit on how much of our population can be mobilized without damaging the economy. The cap on militia is directly proportional to our population level. If we go into battle and lose 5k militia, we can continue recruiting until we hit the cap - only the cap would be slightly less to account for having 5k less total population having done some damage to our overall economy.

Numerically, if we have 200k people and can support 10k troops, then going into battle and losing 5k troops means we'd now have 195k people and could support 9.75k troops, which means that even though no more troops could be recruited before the war after the war 4.75k troops could be recruited.

Losing 3% of our population isn't going to cripple our military for a generation.
4: ah fair enough. Still going to weaken our economy though.
 
It could be that the fighting only went on for an hour or so and our allies came in a bit before they would have broken and that without the allies coming in we would have been wiped out without inflicting much dmg to our enemy.

All I am saying is relying on the statistics of losses for that battle to stay true in one without backup of unknown numbers is insane. yes we won't be facing insane numbers, but for all we know the losses we took before our allied forces came in were not given enough time to become significant and most of the losses came in after the fight began in earnest. Where our allies took the brunt of the losses for us too.
Commander Psellos does not sell his men with valor as he had hoped in a grand clash of arms, and instead for an entire day the professional soldiery of Atlapolis fights against an almost phantasmic enemy. Then at last the Meskwaki arrive with a great braying of horns, and the pockets of Elysian infantry become the rocky shoals which the Lenape must stumble across and through to organise against their new opponents. But the Meskwaki are fleet of foot, and the invaders scatter into an increasingly disorganised mess.
That fight took an entire day, and the Lenape routed just about as soon as the Meskwaki showed up.

So no, our allies didn't take the brunt of the losses - they contributed by showing and causing an enemy demoralized by a day of unsuccessfully trying to grind away at the Romans to rout and then running down their fleeing enemy.

1: perhaps both are unreasonable but that does not make yours any less unreasonable. At least mine has the excuse of caution in that we are about to go to war. What is your excuse?
Bullshit.
even another 1,000 professional troops than your plan has as I stated would basically remove the chance of defeat from the war. Not completely but close enough that it won't happen.
This you, saying in your own words of your own free will that raising 4 units of Allagia would basically remove any chance of defeat. Using that benchmark (that you offered) as the ideal, a plan raising 2 units of Allagia is closer to being reasonable than a plan raising 10.

Feel free to try and excuse extremism as caution - I'm going to stick to asserting my plan is reasonable because I've started from actual evidence and then used logic and reason to construct a plan.

3: Actually it relates a lot since we won't be able to seize more than what we can defend.
Nope - the Tuscarora are about twice the size of the Lenape, which could be pacified by 1k Allagia at first and 2k Allagia when they got riled up. We already have enough Allagia to keep the lid on, which means the additional Allagia I'm raising will either counteract casualties in the worst case scenario or cement the issue for good in a realistic scenario.

Needless to say, no amount of troops will enable us to seize more territory from the Tuscarora then they possess - you cannot create something from nothing.
 
This you, saying in your own words of your own free will that raising 4 units of Allagia would basically remove any chance of defeat. Using that benchmark (that you offered) as the ideal, a plan raising 2 units of Allagia is closer to being reasonable than a plan raising 10.

Feel free to try and excuse extremism as caution - I'm going to stick to asserting my plan is reasonable because I've started from actual evidence and then used logic and reason to construct a plan.
no I also am considering the fact that we may be attacked after this war is over if we lose too many troops. So ya while you are too shortsighted to think about anything other than the current turn like most people I am 5 turns ahead playing 4D chess all over your comparatively primitive brain.

Nope - the Tuscarora are about twice the size of the Lenape, which could be pacified by 1k Allagia at first and 2k Allagia when they got riled up. We already have enough Allagia to keep the lid on, which means the additional Allagia I'm raising will either counteract casualties in the worst case scenario or cement the issue for good in a realistic scenario.

Needless to say, no amount of troops will enable us to seize more territory from the Tuscarora then they possess - you cannot create something from nothing.
ok mr knows everything about the quest and is the QM ;)

anyway I am done you can't understand or even try to see any viewpoint other than your own just too shortsighted to do so. congrats you win via wearing down the opposition to the point they no longer care argument over from me you won't see any replies from me furthermore. Hope this does not come back to bite us all.
 
[X] Invade Tuscarora.

[X] Plan Projects Big and Small

The thing is, do we need that many troops? Yes, we could always plan for some other tribe to fall us in the back and if this were a total war game, than I would be inclined to believe that this would happen, just because of shitty AI.

But we are still in a "precarious" economical situation and recruiting more troops will only worsen this situation. Combine that with the fact, that the only tribe likely to attack us during this whole thing is the smaller one to our west, who we can reach and react to quite easily, and there is just neither a reason to frighten our neighbours with a massive military buildup, nor one to empty our coffers.

Our ruler right now is kind of retarded in the administrative area, so having as much money as possible to mitigate the potential fallouts, from conquering yet another native population and trying to integrate them, will hinge on our ability to throw money at the problem and hope that it goes smoothly.

Taking in that last population propped us up to 20% natives in our country. Letting things stabilize should have been the way to go, alas we didn't have much of a choice. Sadly this will lead to all kinds of internal problems our ruler is not fit to deal with.

Let's just make the best of it...
 
Last edited:
The thing is, do we need that many troops? Yes, we could always plan for some other tribe to fall us in the back and if this were a total war game, than I would be inclined to believe that this would happen, just because of shitty AI.
It's not just that though. The war with the Tuscarora seems to be aimed at one of conquest of a sizable nation and in order to do that you need soldiers to defeat the enemies army, siege their settlements and force a peace, maintain a standing force to deal with the internal issues with a newly conquered people, for protection of the new trade caravans, maintain a standing force on the newly enlarged border with unknown factions so they themselves don't act, maintain a force to protect your current borders so there are no opportunities for others to take advantage off.

All of that requires manpower, all of that requires soldiers. You also have to account for the fact that an unknowable amount of those soldiers will die in the act of conquest.

So you have a decision; would you rather you went with too few soldiers and end up in a battle slog that is a waste of manpower, wealth and providing opportunities for others, or would you rather be cautious and go with potentially too many soldiers in which case while it would cost more the conquest would go even easier which should fundamentally save lives and wealth too. We want to ensure we go into battle with a decisive army, as the battles that invariably with the most casualties are the ones where you face foes on equal terms.

Plus even then it's not like we're going over the force limit in game terms, we're still only at an Allagia limit of 8000 out of 15000.
 
Last edited:
Truly an auspicious sign!


Edit: wait did we atually win in the end?
 
Last edited:
Well, I didn't expect quite this amount of interest in less than 24 hours. I would have said that developing Mikra Krete and Nea Alexandreia was more important than establishing diplomatic embassies, especially as the Europeans haven't arrived yet, but that's a total non-starter by now.

[X] Invade Tuscarora
[X] Plan Projects Big and Small
 
Last edited:
Perhaps more importantly: Do we have another Palaiologos in the line? :whistle:
Because as much as it's funny to see 0-Admin-Ruler die abruptly, succession crisis or civil war could be pretty bad too.
I was sure that Sayle already stated that our Palaiologos had an heir in line, but I would have to search for the comment. Yeah we divided power so evenly, that a three way split might actually be possible.
 
We don't know for sure, but having 16k to their 10k troops and the info blurb saying our opponent "suffered some losses" is pretty suggestive that the fighting went our way overall. More details will have to wait until the update.

I hope we won, I wasn't sure how to read that panel as I haven't played EUIV in awhile. Also I'm pretty sure we're about to take another hit to our stability due to losing a monarch in such short order. We're probably also going to be entering a regency period, where hopefully our new heir actually has better stats than dear old dad.
 
We don't know for sure, but having 16k to their 10k troops and the info blurb saying our opponent "suffered some losses" is pretty suggestive that the fighting went our way overall. More details will have to wait until the update.
I hope we won, I wasn't sure how to read that panel as I haven't played EUIV in awhile. Also I'm pretty sure we're about to take another hit to our stability due to losing a monarch in such short order. We're probably also going to be entering a regency period, where hopefully our new heir actually has better stats than dear old dad.
to me that says the opposite as 'suffered some losses' means he was not wiped out or lost a lot of men. the lack of commenjt on how many troops we lost is worrying to me.....

Oh well If we won and you were right @me.me.here then thats is beyond good news. If we lost though..... at least I get to post my fav. Meme again :D
 
Back
Top